bwilson4web
hit the spot
Nice video showing 19.20.4.2 AutoPilot. He confirms the same improvement in a disappearing line on a merging lane:
Bob Wilson
Bob Wilson
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Love AP but had some scary moments
- Thread starter Niroc
- Start date
Moderator note: one post moved to Snippiness. Remember, no personal attacks, no name calling. Civility is required. Thank you.
Leafdriver333
Somewhat Active Member
bwilson4web
hit the spot
Do you have any dash cam video of the events?
I'm not having any luck replicating them beyond crossing or turning traffic.
Bob Wilson
Leafdriver333
Somewhat Active Member
bwilson4web
hit the spot
Leafdriver333
Somewhat Active Member
daytime sunny weather. no cars on the side or ahead. not sure about having overpass up ahead all 4 times.
bwilson4web
hit the spot
The 'magic eye' in our BMW i3-REx has problems with tree shadows over the road when headed into a low sun. It also occasionally acts up coming on an overpass shadow.
Bob Wilson
Interesting. My experience using AP has been on Interstate and US Highways only. Do you have fsd?
bwilson4web
hit the spot
More than just highways? I am too nervous for that yet.
Slightly off topic but judging by the Avatar I think you would really appreciate this nice M3 video. One of my favorites
bwilson4web
hit the spot
A retired engineer, I’m used to dealing with early hardware and software versions.
Bob Wilson
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
And, apparently, using software in places it's explicitly not even intended to work and has no programming whatsoever to deal with aspects of... (for example current AP has no understanding of what to do with oncoming traffic, cross traffic, people turning in front of you, etc)
Bob, I will try to save video files next time it happens. But number of these false braking events are reduced in last few versions. But like you mentioned the severity of braking also seems reduced compared what it used to be a while back.
I’ve experienced phantom braking on the freeway a few times on my commutes. Normally happens more in the afternoon commute home. I’ve had it happen while I’m on the 15 cruising on standard auto-pilot slowly accelerating. I was to the lane to the left of a semi-truck and about 2 car lengths behind. The freeway bends slightly to the left and then the car randomly applied it’s brakes then picked back up. It felt similar to when a car cuts into your lane in front of you.
Another time, also in the afternoon, I was approaching a shadow of the freeway exit sign. The car seemed to want to abruptly slow down but I corrected it with accelerating back up briefly. I didn’t get to catch a glimpse of what the screen is showing though.
During stop and go traffic on the freeway, the car seems to brake differently depending on the car in front of me. Generally following distance and the distance when the car engages the brakes is fairly consistent and predictable, but I noticed that there are times when the car initiates the brake much later than expecting. Sometimes I will have to take over and engage the brakes.
Another instance when my car acts weird is when I am in stop and go traffic on the freeway and the flow immediately picks up. There is now a 6+ car gap in front of me. My model 3 is accelerating and I can see ahead that the traffic is at a complete stop, but my car is still accelerating. What I tend to do in these cases is assist in the initial acceleration to get the car going. Always be ready to assist when at freeway speeds and you see traffic has come to a dead stop ahead of you.
I love using autopilot and use it often on my daily commute. I feel like I am able to get a better idea of what’s going on around me and scanning for hazards. I like that taking control of the car is always smooth and easy. It’s a great tool to have and definitely reduces stress.
Another time, also in the afternoon, I was approaching a shadow of the freeway exit sign. The car seemed to want to abruptly slow down but I corrected it with accelerating back up briefly. I didn’t get to catch a glimpse of what the screen is showing though.
During stop and go traffic on the freeway, the car seems to brake differently depending on the car in front of me. Generally following distance and the distance when the car engages the brakes is fairly consistent and predictable, but I noticed that there are times when the car initiates the brake much later than expecting. Sometimes I will have to take over and engage the brakes.
Another instance when my car acts weird is when I am in stop and go traffic on the freeway and the flow immediately picks up. There is now a 6+ car gap in front of me. My model 3 is accelerating and I can see ahead that the traffic is at a complete stop, but my car is still accelerating. What I tend to do in these cases is assist in the initial acceleration to get the car going. Always be ready to assist when at freeway speeds and you see traffic has come to a dead stop ahead of you.
I love using autopilot and use it often on my daily commute. I feel like I am able to get a better idea of what’s going on around me and scanning for hazards. I like that taking control of the car is always smooth and easy. It’s a great tool to have and definitely reduces stress.
bwilson4web
hit the spot
I have a loop that reproduces the phantom braking when the Sun is low on the horizon:
This is my test loop:
Because of the slope, in the morning I can get direct sunlight on the car as well as shadows.
Bob Wilson
- "SPACE" stops/starts playback
- "," back one frame
- "." forward one frame
This is my test loop:
Because of the slope, in the morning I can get direct sunlight on the car as well as shadows.
Bob Wilson
Last edited:
I'm getting the same results. They have not all been mild breaking. I keep my foot hovering above the accelerator pedal. I've also had some sharp steering events going over Bridges.
Puddles
Member
We seem to have gotten into phantom braking but I took the OP to be about lane line hugging in corners.
I have a theory that since human drivers in general hug the *inside* of a curve, riding the center of the lane *seems* like running wide. These cars obsessively seek the center of the lane, and there’s no reason in my mind to think they behave differently in a corner.
I will grant a small outside bias due to processing lag, but I think if you really look out the windows at the space you’re in, you’ll find you’re pretty well centered no matter what the road is doing.
I have a theory that since human drivers in general hug the *inside* of a curve, riding the center of the lane *seems* like running wide. These cars obsessively seek the center of the lane, and there’s no reason in my mind to think they behave differently in a corner.
I will grant a small outside bias due to processing lag, but I think if you really look out the windows at the space you’re in, you’ll find you’re pretty well centered no matter what the road is doing.
bwilson4web
hit the spot
The reason to capture and analyze 'phantom braking' is to get some metrics:
A solar induced, phantom braking event, GPS measured, is ~3 seconds. In this case, there was a ~7 mph of ~17 mph reduction in speed that was done ~3 seconds later. To get higher resolution, I'll have to use my 400 Hz, recording accelerometer.
Human reaction times are in the 200 ms range so this means ~15 times the reaction time of a typical human.
Bob Wilson
Code:
Frame GPS time GPS speed
0 06:26:56 AM 17.57
1 06:26:57 AM 12.52
24 06:26:57 AM 12.52
25 06:26:58 AM 9.97
49 06:26:58 AM 9.97
50 06:26:59 AM 16.89
74 06:26:59 AM 16.89
75 06:27:00 AM 17.60Human reaction times are in the 200 ms range so this means ~15 times the reaction time of a typical human.
Bob Wilson
On sudden sharpe turns it does tend to hug and even touch the outer line. This is a little disconcerting on a right hand curve and traffic coming in the other direction. You are like turn sharper. Think this is because it is deciding to try find the center on the fly with NO awareness of what is coming up. In other words Autopilot's awareness is "behind the curve" [pun]. In all likelihood when we get better neural predictability (as shown at the event) it will be able to keep the center much better. Still not very human since on cloverleaves staying in the center makes you drive a little slower than hugging the inside line. Also on many city roads there can be a lot more potholes, broken curbs, scooters ½ in road and rough pavement and we naturally will drive a little to the left of lane.
Another 'non human' center behavior is on a multi-lane and next to a semi we tend to inch over away. However Autopilot doesn't give an inch and "feels" like it is too close. Even if the truck is weaving slightly Autopilot holds the center lane. VERY un-human behavior even if it is mathematically correct.
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