Ludicrous Upgrade Scheduling?

[whitex]

Andy, just to set the record straight: when you and I (and all the other early P85D adopters) bought our cars, the advertised 0-60 mph was 3.2 seconds, and the car delivered that.

Actually no, in order to meet the advertised 0-60 a footnote had to be added that a rollout procedure was used. You can argue whether it was reasonable to use, but since 2 of 3 0-60 numbers in that same table row were not using that procedure, it was reasonable to expect the 3rd was the same. An argument "it's reasonable because that's what racers do" could be used for anything, for example if they later told us "with all passenger seats removed from the car" since people who drag race also do that, so it must be a reasonable procedure, right?

Also, here is the text from the design studio that most believe was never delivered on:
"Additionally, an over-the-air firmware upgrade to the power electronics will improve P85D performance at high speed above what anyone outside of Tesla has experienced to date. In other words, the car will be better than you experienced. This free upgrade will be rolled out in the next few months, once full validation is complete."
Ludicrous upgrade looks suspiciously close to the upgrade described above, except for the over-the-air the "free" part. And yes, you can argue that if the passing performance was improved by 1 nanosecond 50-100, and that upgrade came free over the air, then the legalese wording was satisfied. Just like the *motor power* was legally satisfied. And that's why people like me no longer trust any specs advertised by Tesla.

 

[commasign]

Funny, I was nodding my head agreeing with both what MarcG and whitex just said. Good opposing summaries for our agreement to disagree.

Ultimately we vote with our money and our sharing our love or hate of our P85D's with our friends and family.

 

[Evee]

I am also loving my p85d w/ rear next gens and plus suspension

 

[Andyw2100]

Marc--I, like many others, never took too much issue with the 0-60 times, though I do agree that Tesla should have been clearer about the 1 foot roll out. My issue is, as you know, the horsepower issue, and the fact that as whitex pointed out, the high speed performance update promised for some time on the website never materialized, but does sound awfully close to what the Ludicrous upgrade turned out to be, except that Ludicrous requires hardware too, and thus cash.

Lots of knowledgeable people here believe Tesla intended to deliver originally, and then intended to come close to the original claims by delivering what turned out to be Ludicrous, but discovered that they couldn't do it without damaging too much of the existing hardware, so decided to do it by replacing the contactors and fuse. Assuming this is really what happened, my feeling is we as customers should not be paying for Tesla's mistakes. Tesla should own them, and learn from them.

 

[Fluke]

The service department guy sent me a text tonight saying that my car was pulling 1511 amps under acceleration. I'm traveling, so can't look it up right now, I thought the upgrade was to 1400 amps (or was it 1600?).

 

[NOLA_Mike]

The service department guy sent me a text tonight saying that my car was pulling 1511 amps under acceleration. I'm traveling, so can't look it up right now, I thought the upgrade was to 1400 amps (or was it 1600?).

My recollection is it was 1300 and the upgrade took it to 1500 A.

 

[lolachampcar]

I actually look at the OTA update to provide high speed performance not seen outside the factory as work unfinished at launch. The announcement clearly identifies the need for validation prior to release. It is not unreasonable to assume the fuse and contactor issues arose during validation. Tesla tried to provide it for free but that was not possible. Saying you will try to do something for free then failing due to hardware limitations beyond your control is not an offense in my eyes. It turns out it cost money to pull it off so they offered us early owners the ability to buy the update at/near cost or at least we know it is 1/2 of what new cars are getting for the same option. I'm actually ok with this.

Of course, nothing about the above speaks to buyer's expectations that an XYZ horsepower car should perform like ABC nor does it address 0-60 times with and without rollout. I was only looking narrowly at the free OTA update turning into a $5K L upgrade.

 

[Fluke]

OK, that would make more sense. Thanks Mike.

 

[bhzmark]

Um, yeah, that's exactly what I meant.

Seriously, I consider MarcG a TMC friend, and we agree on a lot of things. I don't really know commasign very well. We just happen to disagree pretty radically on this topic.

Having the now original p85d suspension and matching next Gen rear seats are not benefits of the older p85ds that are not currently available? I just don't get that. and i certainly don't get it being like being fooled into doing someone else's work.

It seems pretty obvious that a good candidate for the best equipped overall model s is a p85dL with the old suspension and next gen rear seats.

 

[bhzmark]

My original point was that you guys seem thrilled about having the privilege of paying for something that in my opinion and the opinion of many others we thought we had already paid for and should have had at time of delivery, or, in the very least, should have had provided at no charge later.

I dont expect free hardware upgrades to replace perfectly good hardware with new hardware that didnt even exist at original mfr date.

Edit to add:
Oh, it's the HP issue. Good grief. I hope those complaints can stay in that thread.

 

[whitex]

I actually look at the OTA update to provide high speed performance not seen outside the factory as work unfinished at launch. The announcement clearly identifies the need for validation prior to release. It is not unreasonable to assume the fuse and contactor issues arose during validation. Tesla tried to provide it for free but that was not possible. Saying you will try to do something for free then failing due to hardware limitations beyond your control is not an offense in my eyes. It turns out it cost money to pull it off so they offered us early owners the ability to buy the update at/near cost or at least we know it is 1/2 of what new cars are getting for the same option. I'm actually ok with this.

Ok, would you feel the same if it turned out that those who paid extra for the "Autopilot Convenience Features" were not able to use any of those features unless they paid $5K more for a hardware upgrade? Assume, just as with the performance upgrade, that Tesla really thought they could do it, but then it turned out they were wrong. In both situations customers paid for something promised in the future, and they both needed to be developed and/or validated.

 

[cassiri]

I have a June 2015 build P85D. Unfortunately I didn't get the rear next gen seats or + suspension. Still I'm very happy with my ride. The "i want the latest greatest" part of me was not happy to see the L released just after I picked up my car. It would have been a tough additional upgrade to bite off and even the $5k upgrade offer is tough to justify. If it gave the same performance as a P90DL I would consider it. While $5k is a good value for the power increase (relative to most car performance upgrades), it still feels like I would be chasing small incremental changes. I think it may be better to wait a couple years and go for an all new vehicle that will at that point have more self driving hardware.
I am curious though if the Ludicrous upgrade is necessary in order to extract the benefit of any future battery improvements. Say at 120kwh battery comes out in 3 years and you can swap out your 85kwh. Will an insane vehicle see significant improvements since we all know the cars are battery limited, or will it always remain limited to a 1300A pull?

 

[cynix]

I have a June 2015 build P85D. Unfortunately I didn't get the rear next gen seats or + suspension.

Mine was built in June 2015 too, and I got the next-gen rear seats. Not sure about the suspension as I haven't driven a + so I have no frame of reference.

 

[lolachampcar]

Whitex,
Please read further.....

"Of course, nothing about the above speaks to buyer's expectations that an XYZ horsepower car should perform like ABC nor does it address 0-60 times with and without rollout. I was only looking narrowly at the free OTA update turning into a $5K L upgrade."

I did not have the XYZ horsepower expectation. My BS filter stopped that one at the door which is why I was not disappointed.
AP was promised at launch. Extra high speed performance not seen outside the factory was not. The only way to have this expectation is to have relied on the HP number (which would be understandable).

 

[PatD]

OK gang, back to the original topic at hand. There's plenty of "HP" threads available to continue those conversations in.

 

[MarcG]

I am curious though if the Ludicrous upgrade is necessary in order to extract the benefit of any future battery improvements. Say at 120kwh battery comes out in 3 years and you can swap out your 85kwh. Will an insane vehicle see significant improvements since we all know the cars are battery limited, or will it always remain limited to a 1300A pull?

That's a great question. It really depends on how long Tesla plans on keeping the Ludicrous option as a differentiator for truly quick acceleration.

My guess is that it's a high-margin option that a small portion of customers truly values, so it makes sense to continue to limit the packs to 1300A for the masses and "unleash the beast" for those who really wants the extra oomph and are wiling to pay for it.

With this theory, I would say that future battery packs (doubt it will be 120kWh in 3 years though, more like 100kWh) will be capable of 1500A (or more?) but limited to 1300A by default, with a $10k or (some high number) upgrade to Ludicrous. So IMHO, having Ludicrous now for $5,000 is a better "deal" than new models at $10,000.

Who knows how this will change though... I would say if you don't value the upgrade now for what it provides in the near-term, don't bank on the future as you may be disappointed.

- - - Updated - - -

AP was promised at launch.

I know this is going off-topic so I apologize in advance, but just to be clear: AP was promised to be delivered in increments "over the next several months" from the launch in late 2014.

It's obvious "several months" turned into a year in the end to get true AP with feet AND hands off, but that's another story that has been discussed ad nauseum :smile:

 

[stevesol]

Ludicrous upgrade complete! Second one performed at the fantastic St. Louis (University City) SC. The upgrade took less than a day, charged overnight, with a final test drive in the morning before I picked it up. Noticeably better acceleration at speed. Loaner provided. Was told that the upgrade kits are car specific. The battery gets a new sticker that is matched to the VIN number of the car.

 

[whitex]

Whitex,
AP was promised at launch. Extra high speed performance not seen outside the factory was not. The only way to have this expectation is to have relied on the HP number (which would be understandable).

Ah, I see the disconnect. You set your expectations solely on promises at launch. I on the other hand, based my expectations on the design studio information where I entered my order. "Extra high speed performance not seen outside the factory was not (promised at launch)" but was it was promised on the page where I confirmed my order. It is also possible that when you ordered, that OTA was not mentioned on your order page, and if that's the case, it is reasonable that you had no expectation of this upgrade.

 

[lolachampcar]

That makes perfect sense.

 

[rays427]

Well my car went in for the upgrade last Friday and that afternoon the battery was back in the car and they thought it would be done that day. However when they were trying to download the firmware they got alerts and it failed to download. They have had the battery in and out of the car many times tying to diagnose the problem. I was called this afternoon stating they think they have finally found the problem. They need to replace a part and sent someone to Fremont to pick it up so they could start the repair this afternoon. They are hoping to complete the repair tomorrow.