Manual v Auto transmission (out of MA)

[avoigt]

Model 3
You warned me...and I didn't listen and now...
well...here we go, baby!

I test drove a Tesla for the first time ever yesterday (after having 2 demos canceled on me because people kept buying the dang Model 3s!) and wow. Like, I always imagined it would be awesome, but I just had no idea. It's a truly incredible experience, and, if I'm going to be honest, I did shed a tear or two when I got back in my Camry afterwards.

You warned me...and I didn't listen and now... : teslamotors

 

[Fact Checking]

Model 3
You warned me...and I didn't listen and now...
well...here we go, baby!

I test drove a Tesla for the first time ever yesterday (after having 2 demos canceled on me because people kept buying the dang Model 3s!) and wow. Like, I always imagined it would be awesome, but I just had no idea. It's a truly incredible experience, and, if I'm going to be honest, I did shed a tear or two when I got back in my Camry afterwards.

You warned me...and I didn't listen and now... : teslamotors

BTW., there's another thing that might boost Tesla Model 3 demand in Europe that I haven't seen mentioned here yet: unlike the U.S. where over ~90% of new cars are sold with automatic transmission, in Europe it's the exception: for example in Germany only about ~20% of the cars are sold with automatic transmission. Also, to get a driver's license you have to practice on and use a manual shift car, which gives manual transmission a head start.

So the 'first time EV test drive experience' is going to be even more brutal to the ~80% of German new car customers who never drove an automatic in their life before...

BTW., this factor I believe also explains why smaller EVs are particularly popular in Europe: beyond the small form factor that is useful in dense cities, many women do not enjoy operating complex machinery, but automatic transmission is not standard with smaller ICE cars and even when offered it is disproportionately more expensive. With an EV you get automatic transmission 'for free'.

So while the sedan market is already twice as large in Europe as in the U.S. due the higher fuel costs of most SUVs and due to the size, effective demand for the Model 3 could be even higher, due to its automatic transmission and the continuous acceleration.

 

[Analyst007]

BTW., there's another thing that might boost Tesla Model 3 demand in Europe that I haven't seen mentioned here yet: unlike the U.S. where over ~90% of new cars are sold with automatic transmission, in Europe it's the exception: for example in Germany only about ~20% of the cars are sold with automatic transmission. Also, to get a driver's license you have to practice on and use a manual shift car, which gives manual transmission a head start.

So the 'first time EV test drive experience' is going to be even more brutal to the ~80% of German new car customers who never drove an automatic in their life before...

BTW., this factor I believe also explains why smaller EVs are particularly popular in Europe: beyond the small form factor that is useful in dense cities, many women do not enjoy operating complex machinery, but automatic transmission is not standard with smaller ICE cars and even when offered it is disproportionately more expensive. With an EV you get automatic transmission 'for free'.

So while the sedan market is already twice as large in Europe as in the U.S. due the higher fuel costs of most SUVs and due to the size, effective demand for the Model 3 could be even higher, due to its automatic transmission and the continuous acceleration.

True that. In Switzerland for example, there are still plenty of manual cars on the road but all newly sold vehicles are mostly automatic. But for the automatic transmission you have to pay an additional 10-15% of the total car value. Furthermore, politicians are talking about opening the driving exam of only automatic cars also to manual cars. This would basically mean that you could do the driving license with an automatic vehicle (maybe Model 3) but you are also allowed to drive manual vehicles on the road. This would further enhance the buying power for automatic vehicles as there is no more reason to buy a manual one (other than having more fun if you have plenty of horse powers in supercars). But even then, the transition is to automatic cars which you can also use manually (look at the Mercedes A series for example,at the steering wheel you can manually choose the gear if you wish too immediately).

Is this actually also possible with the MOdel 3 or not yet?

 

[Carl Raymond]

True that. In Switzerland for example, there are still plenty of manual cars on the road but all newly sold vehicles are mostly automatic. But for the automatic transmission you have to pay an additional 10-15% of the total car value. Furthermore, politicians are talking about opening the driving exam of only automatic cars also to manual cars. This would basically mean that you could do the driving license with an automatic vehicle (maybe Model 3) but you are also allowed to drive manual vehicles on the road. This would further enhance the buying power for automatic vehicles as there is no more reason to buy a manual one (other than having more fun if you have plenty of horse powers in supercars). But even then, the transition is to automatic cars which you can also use manually (look at the Mercedes A series for example,at the steering wheel you can manually choose the gear if you wish too immediately).

Is this actually also possible with the MOdel 3 or not yet?

The wheel to motor turn ratio is the same at all speeds. No gearbox, so to speak, only 'gearing'.
It's a different ratio for the front motor c.f. the back motor, to allow for optimisation.

 

[Fact Checking]

But even then, the transition is to automatic cars which you can also use manually (look at the Mercedes A series for example,at the steering wheel you can manually choose the gear if you wish too immediately).

Is this actually also possible with the MOdel 3 or not yet?

The Model 3 and all other Teslas literally have no transmission gear switching: it's a fixed gearing ratio and true continuous acceleration with no "switching" of gears anywhere. This simplifies the design and reduces manufacturing and maintenance costs.

EVs can do this because electric motors provide torque in a broad RPM spectrum, while ICE engines only operate in a narrow RPM range optimally.

This is also a safety feature: manual gear switching mistakes can be dangerous, and it's also a constant distraction.

 

[jeewee3000]

manual gear switching mistakes can be dangerous, and it's also a constant distraction.

For people that can't drive. You lost me at this argument. Manual gear switching is perfectly safe and requires the same concentration as scratching your nose - for experienced drivers that is.

 

[SpaceCash]

For people that can't drive. You lost me at this argument. Manual gear switching is perfectly safe and requires the same concentration as scratching your nose - for experienced drivers that is.

No, Teslas accelerate so fast I would never prefer nor be able to shift through all the equivalent gears as seamlessly as they accelerate. It's better/safer/more fun imo

 

[Fact Checking]

Manual gear switching is perfectly safe and requires the same concentration as scratching your nose - for experienced drivers that is.

I disagree:

• I'm an experienced manual shift driver to whom shifting is like scratching my nose. Yet over long trips and even in everyday traffic there's a very marked advantage from driving automatic: I can drive longer and get less fatigued. I can also rest my feet and my arms better.
• This is even more true in mountainous environments - of which there is plenty in Europe.
• Also, in dangerous situations when accelerating out there is nothing faster than "full throttle" and the automatic down-shifting to get emergency torque. Switching gears manually adds delay and adds stress (as the switching was unanticipated), which is always an additional risk. This is almost axiomatic.

 

[Carl Raymond]

For people that can't drive. You lost me at this argument. Manual gear switching is perfectly safe and requires the same concentration as scratching your nose - for experienced drivers that is.

There is the alternative safety point that people should learn to drive on a manual if possible. Else they may one day find themselves in a situation where the only route to safety or hospital is by driving a manual, and they are stuck.

 

[FrANce]

I disagree:

• I'm an experienced manual shift driver to whom shifting is like scratching my nose. Yet over long trips and even in everyday traffic there's a very marked advantage from driving automatic: I can drive longer and get less fatigued. I can also rest my feet and my arms better.
• This is even more true in mountainous environments - of which there is plenty in Europe.
• Also, in dangerous situations when accelerating out there is nothing faster than "full throttle" and the automatic down-shifting to get emergency torque. Switching gears manually adds delay and adds stress (as the switching was unanticipated), which is always an additional risk. This is almost axiomatic.

Not to mention the boredom of endlessly shifting from neutral to first, and back to neutral, in hour-long traffic jams.

 

[WarpedOne]

There is the alternative safety point that people should learn to ride a horse if possible. Else they may one day find themselves in a situation where the only route to safety or hospital is a horse, and they are stuck.

 

[Fact Checking]

There is the alternative safety point that people should learn to drive on a manual if possible.

I agree with that part - it's a good skill to have for emergencies, in addition to first aid and revival skills, navigation skills, situational awareness, survival skills in remote locations, etc.

In everyday traffic the advantages of automatics are overwhelming though, both from a comfort and from an emergency latency (i.e. safety) point of view.

(More comfort is also safer, statistically: a relaxed but alert driver is the safest state of mind to have.)

 

[Sunlight]

People may indeed drive manual cars so much that it gets like 'scratching your nose' but I often see situations where cars suddenly slow down round a corner or on an uphill and it is amazing how few drivers engage the correct gear first time to compensate.

Also stalling the engine when having to make a quick or unexpected start is more common than one would believe.

After driving our BMW i3 for a few months, I had to hire a small Peugeot in the UK recently with a little turbo petrol engine, manual gearbox and well as stop-start. It was a grim experience as the traffic can be horrendous and the tiniest gap is taken immediately so one spends one's time juggling between the engine cutting out and re-starting; riding the clutch to be ready to grab any gap; endlessly going up and own the gearbox or sitting in neutral.....

I don't think ordinary ICE owner have any idea how miserable their cars actually are! Alright automatics are marginally better.....

 

[jeewee3000]

No, Teslas accelerate so fast I would never prefer nor be able to shift through all the equivalent gears as seamlessly as they accelerate. It's better/safer/more fun imo

I agree fully but that was not what I said. I was talking about the action of shifting being natural and - dare I say it - "automatic". EV Technology is of course superior in every way.

I disagree:

• I'm an experienced manual shift driver to whom shifting is like scratching my nose. Yet over long trips and even in everyday traffic there's a very marked advantage from driving automatic: I can drive longer and get less fatigued. I can also rest my feet and my arms better.
• This is even more true in mountainous environments - of which there is plenty in Europe.
• Also, in dangerous situations when accelerating out there is nothing faster than "full throttle" and the automatic down-shifting to get emergency torque. Switching gears manually adds delay and adds stress (as the switching was unanticipated), which is always an additional risk. This is almost axiomatic.

People that shift incorrectly or stall in panic situations are the same people that will make steering errors when flooring a Tesla or automatic. If this happens, it shows limited control of the vehicle. Unfortunately it occurs with the average driver that drives less than say 15k miles per year.

Driving in mountainous areas is one area where a manual shift ICE is actually easier than an automatic. An EV I don't know yet. Still waiting for my Model 3. Can't wait.

Tldr, I agree EV is better and more comfy, but manual shifting should never be dangerous. If it is for someone, they should get extra lessons or experience.

 

[jbih]

For people that can't drive. You lost me at this argument. Manual gear switching is perfectly safe and requires the same concentration as scratching your nose - for experienced drivers that is.

You don't scratch your nose while going through a corner, watching oncoming traffic and taking care of traffic lights all at the same time. You have to shift though. I have both automatic and manual and there certainly is a difference.

When on the race track, manual is as good as automatic when you know every corner. As soon as your on a new racetrack or unknown roads, thats not true any more.
(I'll take back the disagree though.)

 

[mongo]

Driving in mountainous areas is one area where a manual shift ICE is actually easier than an automatic.

I don't see how shifting can be easier even if you are pointed downhill (and don't know about shifting to L). Hills/ mountains also give you situations where you are uphill at a stop sign with cross traffic that doesn't stop, a car 4 inches from your rear bumper, and driving something without hill hold or even a console parking brake.

(Regarding traffic, my manual fuel injected cars would like you putz along in first at idle, if it was flat)

Possibly market related, Bloomberg reports Tesla has resolved most of the unintended acceleration cases (evening of the 13th)

 

[shlokavica22]

I don't see how shifting can be easier even if you are pointed downhill (and don't know about shifting to L). Hills/ mountains also give you situations where you are uphill at a stop sign with cross traffic that doesn't stop, a car 4 inches from your rear bumper, and driving something without hill hold or even a console parking brake.

(Regarding traffic, my manual fuel injected cars would like you putz along in first at idle, if it was flat)

He talks downhill most probably. Manual allows downshift and less usage of brakes, that can actually be very dangerous if they overheat. However, many modern automatic transmissions can downshift very well and make his statement irrelevant. Btw, in that regard EVs completely overshadow both transmissions, because they not only reduce the brakes usage significantly, but also recharge the battery.

In any case- we are too close to market open and this is way off topic.

Futures recovered from the Brexit related "shock". Fingers crossed for a solid green day with good volume.

 

[Remus]

I agree fully but that was not what I said. I was talking about the action of shifting being natural and - dare I say it - "automatic". EV Technology is of course superior in every way.

People that shift incorrectly or stall in panic situations are the same people that will make steering errors when flooring a Tesla or automatic. If this happens, it shows limited control of the vehicle. Unfortunately it occurs with the average driver that drives less than say 15k miles per year.

Driving in mountainous areas is one area where a manual shift ICE is actually easier than an automatic. An EV I don't know yet. Still waiting for my Model 3. Can't wait.

Tldr, I agree EV is better and more comfy, but manual shifting should never be dangerous. If it is for someone, they should get extra lessons or experience.

Human beings are unreliable. This kind of confidence makes the individual even more unreliable. It has been proven time and time again people frequently fail at the most mundane tasks.

 

[scaesare]

I agree fully but that was not what I said. I was talking about the action of shifting being natural and - dare I say it - "automatic". EV Technology is of course superior in every way.



People that shift incorrectly or stall in panic situations are the same people that will make steering errors when flooring a Tesla or automatic. If this happens, it shows limited control of the vehicle. Unfortunately it occurs with the average driver that drives less than say 15k miles per year.

Driving in mountainous areas is one area where a manual shift ICE is actually easier than an automatic. An EV I don't know yet. Still waiting for my Model 3. Can't wait.

Tldr, I agree EV is better and more comfy, but manual shifting should never be dangerous. If it is for someone, they should get extra lessons or experience.

For the majority of the time, I'd agree that driving a manual is no more problematic than an auto for skilled driver.

But for rapidly changing (i.e. emergency) scenarios, it's probably a pretty safe assumption that reducing the number of inputs, variables, and outputs that a human must evaluate, manage, and act upon is going to be good thing statistically.

There's a reason why airline (or fighter) pilots have information systems designed to aggregate and prioritize data to assist them... in panic situations with milliseconds to react, more items to manage are going to negatively impact reaction time and increase the chance for error. And those are pretty skilled folks.

In a car evaluating which gear you are in, or determining if you can drop the clutch back out, or depress it if you need to panic brake without stalling so you can quickly accelerate out of a situation afterward, etc... less complexity is no doubt better.

And there are lots of such scenarios: panic stops, needs to accelerate out of danger zone, skids, slippery surfaces, unexpected road objects, etc....

No doubt the more skilled manual driver could likely out-perform the less capable auto driver in a given situation, as human skill levels vary greatly. But for the same driver skill level, being able to extract the same performance for a given vehicle with fewer variables is likely to improve the outcome in the majority of cases.

 

[Fact Checking]

People that shift incorrectly or stall in panic situations are the same people that will make steering errors when flooring a Tesla or automatic.

No, it's not the same people ...

You also ignored my primary argument, that for the same experienced driver, mechanic shifting is obviously slower than automatic shifting - and in a dangerous situations slower reaction time is piling on the risks.

This is one of the main reasons why drunk driving is dangerous, not because people suddenly forget the reflexes to drive, but because it slows down reflexes even at relatively low blood alcohol levels - and manual shifting is as if you were always shifting in a bit of a slowed down fashion, compared to automatic shifting. I don't really know why you are still arguing this, that automatic transmission is the (slightly) less risky choice, for the various reasons people have listed, is obvious.