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On the street today I saw an Impeach Trump sticker on the next car ahead. Can you imagine the excitement of a paid political junky watching another Watergate playing out. One worry though, at one point Nixon rattled nukes with the Soviets over issues in the Middle East. But that was when Republicans were concerned about the Russians.

Edit: That's too strong. I meant before the Russians took over our elections. You can't blame Republicans for following their leader.
 
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Many of the US-centric comments here seem to ignore historical context. Distorted and falsified political news has been with the country since John Adams, at least:inception John Adams & Why Fake News is Nothing New
Keeping within the lifetime of many of us, how about The "Red Scare" of Senator McCarthy aided assiduously by Richard Nixon and Roy Cohn (the same Roy Cohn who later holding the fledging Donald Trump to home his political sensibilities. Just in case anybody does not know, these stalwart people spread absolute lies and innuendo enough to destroy many lives and spread fear in the US populace. The Cohn rule "when justifiably accused deny, deny, deny and accuse the accuser of everything you're guilty of yourself". He was disbarred eventually but not without major damage, while helping the political career of Richard Nixon.

The only difference between the McCarthy era and the Trump era is that most of the McCarthy era people were quite intelligent and mostly secular also.
Today the US Presidency is dominated by Evangelical Christian seekers for The Rapture. Trump, as a King Cyrus-like non-believer is accepted as the harbinger of the end of times. A recent perfectly typical example is that of Mike Pompeo in Egypt "I come before you as an Evangelical Christian..." Check the messaging, do not accept my word for this, please. That President trump neither knows nor cares about this situation is quite guaranteed to be even more destructive, precisely because his own political party is so afraid, just as they were in the early 1950's.

For the interest of Tesla, science, the Rule of Law and so much else the only hope is rejection of these ideologies. That will happen, hopefully before it becomes too late. Remember that Brazil, Hungary and others are being captured right now by the same menace. The advance of Christian, Islamic, Hindu and other religious extremists right now has massive risks. All this is very unlikely to end quietly.

Note: you might consider me biased since I grew up in the McCarthy era when my father, an evangelical protestant minister, preached of the evils of 'godless communists"... Hatred of 'the others' produces truly horrible inhumanity, and it did then too.

No major argument from me. The big difference between political manipulation and fake news of the past and today is the way it's been industrialized in the US. The US went to war with Spain in 1898 in large part because William Randolph Hurst's papers were touting how evil the Spanish were being in their colonies. The McCarthy Red Scare is another time someone manipulated people's fears to push a political agenda. In McCarthy's case, he was not popular in his home district and he needed to boost his poll numbers.

We also have moved into another era of right wing nationalism on a level not seen since the 1930s and 40s. The last time there was this much nationalism, it contributed quite a bit to World War II. We are also seeing some quite liberal movements active in the world, though it's of a very different nature from communism which in practice was little different from right wing nationalism (though the core motivations were different).

Today's extremes are more generational than the 30s and 40s type of split. The generations born after 1980 tend to be very liberal in most parts of the world while a form of fascist nationalism is gripping the older generations. Unfortunately GenX is driving a lot of this. Some of the biggest jerks in politics around the world are GenX.

I'm early GenX and I remember seeing it happen. My sister is 10 years older and is from right in the middle of the Baby Boom. When she was in college the Vietnam War was winding down, but there was still a protest attitude among her peers. (She came from a conservative family and didn't agree with the attitudes of her generation, but she experienced it.)

When I got to college, it was the middle of the Reagan administration and the attitude on campuses was very different. The Young Republicans were the biggest politically oriented group on campus. I remember the campus paper had editorials all the time about essentially law and order. There were a relative handful of punk rockers on campus and someone took a picture of one of them, made up a poster that said "Warning: Don't Punk" and put it up around campus. There were people who were justifiably upset about the bullying, but at least half the editorials also defended the person who did it.

I used to shake my head and think "this is the most liberal these people are ever going to be".

Both my sister and I went to schools in the Cal State system, though mine was in a more rural area (San Luis Obispo) and had a big school of agriculture (Devin Nunes is an Ag graduate from my alma mater), so it was somewhat more conservative than my sister's campus (Cal State LA) was in the 60s, but my boss who went to Cal Poly SLO in the 60s observed that the school had become more conservative since she was a student.

When I was in school teachers occasionally observed that there was something different from my class from previous classes. One high school teacher mentioned in a lecture one day that my year was the poorest performing 3rd year in the school's history, but the year behind us were even worse.

I went to three schools before college and in each of them my class had significantly more discipline problems than the year before us.

GenX has reached the point where they are the generation mostly in charge now. Though being a small generation compared to that before and after, it will probably be a shorter time in the sun than average. Politically it's a conservative generation wedged between a somewhat more liberal Baby Boom and a much more liberal Millennial generation. They feel their time in power is short so they are trying to lock in their conservatism as deeply as possible to make it more difficult for the Millennials to undo it.

Older people tend to be more conservative anyway. Winston Churchill has a quote something along the lines of "show me someone who is young and not a liberal and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me someone who is old and not a conservative and I'll show you someone with no brain!" The right's propaganda machine in the US has turned manipulation from something of an art performed by talented BS artists of the past like McCarty and Hearst and turned it into a science, saturating the punters with well crafted propaganda from multiple angles to convince them that the alternate reality they want to create is real. To people who never leave the conservative information bubble, it seems like every source is talking about the same topics in the same way, so the BS mutually reinforces one another. It's brilliantly Machiavellian.

So the propaganda machine sucks in older people who are leaning conservative anyway and are less aware of how interconnected the media has become. There is a documentary called "the Brainwashing of My Father". The film maker's father had been a liberal all his life, but ended up watching Fox and got totally wrapped up in the conspiracy theories. The rest of the family were pulling their hair out. Finally her mother hid the remote and forced him to watch other programs and he returned to his old self.

The nationalism goes beyond the US's shores though and the Russians have been capitalizing on it to manipulate elections around the world, though extreme nationalists have won in countries where there is no evidence the Russians have done anything, like the Philippines. The Russians have been quite active in Europe where they have been trying to sabotage the EU and NATO. They nudged the Brexit vote by fueling nationalist feelings among some. They have interfered in other European elections to mixed success.

In some European countries the #1 and #2 parties are extreme nationalist parties and extreme liberal, which shows how deep the divide is in many places in the world. The Russians are exploiting these and making them worse, but the fundamentals about why they are there in the first place have to do with the changing demographics of the world, migration patterns, and economic patterns. Developing countries are making a lot of the goods sold in developed countries and it's put native born people in those countries out of work. They are angry at not having the economic opportunities their fathers and grandfathers had.

Some are turning towards nationalism in response, others towards more liberal philosophies. The growing divide could become a flashpoint for violent conflict though.
 
overstep and re-elect....... Nancy likely knows this better than most.
It has to be bad enough for the Republicans in the Senate to jump ship at which point McConnell has a come to Jesus meeting. The thump will not listen if he stays true to form. When we toss, another first for him and our country, what will the throngs of deplorables do? Do they go all Jim Jones on us and hit the streets looking for a fight? Or, does Trump start TTV (kinda like RTV but with better ratings) and capitalize on the division?

Chances are good the media is never going to ever leave him alone so any shady deals in the future are going to get sunlight. TTV is probably his best bet to further monetize the effort. He likely would have been better off going straight to TTV as the stop in the big white house may cost his kids a stay in the grey bar hotel. I'm pretty sure he will skate. Like Agnew, there are bigger things at play than justice for the person.
 
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wdolson,
I was thinking more in line that life has gotten way to easy which brings about metal laziness. Humans take the easy way out. If you can do this without much in the way of consequence (mine, and apparently your, generation if I hear you correctly), you will continue until you hit the wall or go over a cliff. That said, interesting assessment.
 
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When I was in my late teens and into my early 30's my peer's were mostly liberal. Now that I am in my 60's I don't recognize many of them. They are mostly in the camp of conservative grumpy old men. It is interesting how the fear of the other has driven so many to be afraid and angry.

On new years we talked with a young woman who had traveled a lot in Costa Rica and Nicaragua. She hitchhiked and stayed in hostels.
Many questions from the older crowd about her safety and was she not scared. She seemed amused at the attention to her safety.
If one allows a regular diet of fear mongering to fuel our natural fear then one ends up scared and ready to vote for the one who will keep them "safe".

The wall is for me the perfect combination of stupidity. We are being led by a fool who knows how to scare people. It has caused any real conversation about immigration and security to come to down to "if you aint with us your against us"

This nonsense can't end soon enough.
 
Thanks for your both informative *and* helpful statements.

Remember, each of us gets to chose how we interpret 'news'. It's fairly easy for me to recognize truth vs fiction vs propaganda, but I realize others may not have a similar perceptive ability. I will admit, though, I enjoy a generous helping of schadenfreude now and then. Hence I occasionally search out Rachel's latest delivery.

In the world of government, all anyone has to learn is to look at an elected lawmakers voting record. It becomes clear, based on their past votes,whether they are honest, caring and work for the benefit of the people - or deceptive and greedy.

Another tool used to be the concept of 'following the money', but that has been taken away from us by the Roberts Supreme Court allowing criminal intent to be masked by their ridiculous application of our First Amendment (Corporations are people!) and now we can't follow the money. At least until the corrupting influence of money in their Citizens United v. FEC ruling is overturned.

Personally, I reject anyone who insists I believe as they do. My choice is to search for truth, and vote accordingly. The same applies to anyone attempting to sell me something, or to sign a contract for their services.

Ahh well. Time for a coffee refill ;^)

People who have a college education are, on average, better at parsing an argument and discerning a logical argument from a baseless assertion. (There are many exceptions, but this is the trend in the data.) In the midterms the Republicans lost the suburbs because that's where a lot of college educated people live. The BS has gotten deep enough to overcome their natural conservative bias and wake them up to the fact that the Republican Party has gone off the rails.

It's too early to tell if this is a trend, but the Republicans may have just lost the suburbs for a generation or more.

Good catch. I would ad to the Lawfare piece: It is also passing strange the Trump transition team had Jared Kushner speaking to the Russian Ambassador about a back-channel communication method with Russia separate from USG communication facilities. Also, be prepared, since his father was indicted for criminal activity, one cannot suspect Jared supports all FBI endeavors.

Does the NSA have an intercept of these talks and are they in Mueller's hands? There may be many smoking guns and we see only the air breathing tip of this iceberg.

My SO has also started listening to the Mueller She Wrote podcast. It's three women, one of whom is a DOJ employee in California who do a run down of the Mueller investigation every week. She did a synopsis of the investigation last week that went for close to 1/2 an hour and at the end one of her co-hosts observed that the public only knows about 5% of what Mueller does.

This scandal is big. So vast that even those who follow it closely have trouble fully comprehending how big it is.

About 20 years ago I read a book about World War II that in one part said nobody had yet written a concise one volume that completely covered the war adequately because the topic was just too big to fit into one book without leaving out some very important bits. Among political scandals, this is going to be World War II big.

I opined to friends a year ago that Mueller's objective is not to just take down those who interfered in the 2016 election, but to shut down the entire Russian money laundering operation. The Russians have built a mafia like empire of corruption and influence pedaling around the world. Mueller is digging out the roots and wants to break the entire op. If successful he would cripple Russian intelligence efforts around the world as well as take billions from the oligarchs who keep Putin in power.

Trump is just a convenient idiot to the FSB and I think Butina's flipping was part of a plan on the part of Putin to burn Trump in the hopes of saving the rest of the network.

Decades ago when I pondered such questions I found proof of God in so much unnecessary beauty in the world, my particular focus then on flowers and their animal variety called woman.

Imagine my delight in discovering another gem of support from the New York Times Magazine.

How Beauty Is Making Scientists Rethink Evolution

Like many efforts to seek answers about unanswerable questions, there are no simple answers and so this is another effort which becomes like its predecessors—inconclusive.

Yet it my old age, still seeking a close shave by William of Ockham, it might be broken down into completion of Torrecelli's rule. "Nature does, indeed, abhor a vacuum, so it seeks to fill it with variety. Some fail, some don't, but we see evidence of all efforts." So true when we try to call attention to ourselves.

OT you say? No, Trump was elected by those seeking variety. Is the vacuum he's creating to be filled by the variety of another media darling, AlexandrIa Ocasio-Cortez?

A prediction. The next president will be a woman although she may have to wait until after the second Trump presidency. AOC will be eligible by then, but before the election? I don't know her month of birth.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez will turn 35 in October 2024. Technically she can run in 2024, but she will probably be considered too young then.

I don't see Trump getting re-elected. @neroden gave a good rundown of why the other day. Trump may not make it to 2020. There is also a non-zero possibility that the next president of the United States will be Nancy Pelosi. It's not a huge chance, but her odds are better than any Speaker since the ratification of the 25th Amendment. Pence's hands are not clean and a lot depends on what Mueller does about it.

There is also a possibility that the Midwest states Trump won in a surprise happened because of direct vote tampering on the part of the Russians. If that is the case, what happens if Mueller has proof of that? There is no mechanism in the Constitution or statute for that. In an extreme case, the Supreme Court could rule that the electoral votes from those states are invalid and nobody got 270 EV at which point Trump was never the legitimate president. But the Constitution mandates when Congress can decide the president if the electoral college can't and that window has passed. So again we'd be in constitutional no mans land.

I don't see SCOTUS going that far because it would be too chaotic for the country. But it is within the outer reaches of the realm of possibility.
 
This has been my problem with the left as of late. Everything involving the border is racist and if you support securing the border, you're a racist.

What's funny is that there are A LOT of non-white folk who live in Texas and other border states who are strong on border security. I love how people like AOC living in New York somehow knows what people in the border towns are dealing with and thinks she has something valid to say about it.

There are massive misunderstandings on both sides of the left/right divide and this is one of them. Conservatives seem to think that liberals don't want to fix the immigration system. Trump goes around saying that Democrats want completely open borders.

While I'm sure you can probably find someone who wants completely open borders just like you could find a welfare mother the conservatives went on about when trying to limit welfare. The truth is that the people one side talks about as examples on the other side are usually fairly rare. Not always, but usually.

There are some snowflakes who see racism in everything any white person does and there probably are some people who want to completely open the borders, but neither are the norm. A lot of noise has been made on the right about some Democrats wanting to eliminate ICE, which is true, but the full story was not reported. ICE is a new organization created during the Bush administration as part of Homeland Security. The Democrats who want to get rid of ICE want to replace it with the old organizations that used to control border security and immigration, not eliminate it completely and replace it with nothing.

The vast majority of Democrats consider immigration and border security among important issues, but most don't consider them paramount. Illegal immigration has declined over the last 20 years and most of the people coming into the US illegally across the southern border are not economic migrants, but are political refugees fleeing violence in Central America (created by the US's War on Drugs). There are still quite a few illegal immigrants in the US, but other than the infraction or misdemeanor (it becomes a misdemeanor after the first offense, the first offense is no more of a crime than speeding) of entering the country illegally and any other laws they need to break to stay under the radar, they are not a crime problem. People who have something to hide are far less likely to act out with violent crime.

Violent crime is far more a native born problem than an immigrant problem. Immigrants, both legal and illegal are far less likely to commit serious crimes. The legal immigration process puts people through the wringer with background checks and weeds out people who are criminally oriented. The illegal immigrants have an incentive to keep their head down and out of trouble. illegal immigrants are much more likely to be unreported victims of crimes.

Because of the low crime rate among immigrants and the decline in illegal immigration most Democrats consider border security a priority, but a lower one than many other problems in this country like health care, economic opportunity, and government corruption. Virtually all Democrats will agree that the immigration system is broken and needs to be re-hauled, but few Democrats would agree that a border wall is anywhere near the best solution. The section that is fenced or walled now is easily breached or defeated and it does nothing for the refugee crisis or the legal immigration system's problems. It also does zip for those people who come here on a legal visa and stay after the visa expires, which is a major vector for illegal immigration today.

Look, guys, we are all racists, just admit it and move on. After getting thoroughly immersed in black culture, nearly marrying two women but parting on friendly terms, I quickly learned about my own racism. One example comes to mind—I never noticed black people come in different shades. So do whites, prompting the dean of my school—widely considered black—to remind me the idea of color and race is completely bogus. Bourgeois black families raise their children the same as mine did. What may be different is being particularly careful about pissing off the police as we hear time and again when African-american fathers share their concerns publicly when trigger happy officers do their thing once again.

I served on a Racial Discrimination Commission at my university. One of the first cases we heard was a housing discrimination issue. The young woman who testified in her case was dressed nicely in a blouse and skirt, no high heels—much more conservative than most students. I cringed when a woman representing the staff of our Commission admonished the student to make sure she was dressed well for the test case we were planning.:mad:

Skin color discrimination is the way Americans discriminate. It's different in different countries. In Canada the divide is whether your primary language is french or English. In Belgium it's similarly a divide between the French and Flemish speakers. In Northern Ireland it's the cultural divide between Catholic and Protestants.

At one time Americans divided things up between different European ethnic groups, but all white people have become one group at this point. It's all ways to draw lines between each other.
 
There are massive misunderstandings on both sides of the left/right divide and this is one of them. Conservatives seem to think that liberals don't want to fix the immigration system. Trump goes around saying that Democrats want completely open borders.

Well when your presidential candidate says she, "dreams of open borders", it kinda sounds like liberals idea of fixing is different than conservatives.

The vast majority of Democrats consider immigration and border security among important issues, but most don't consider them paramount. Illegal immigration has declined over the last 20 years and most of the people coming into the US illegally across the southern border are not economic migrants, but are political refugees fleeing violence in Central America (created by the US's War on Drugs). There are still quite a few illegal immigrants in the US, but other than the infraction or misdemeanor (it becomes a misdemeanor after the first offense, the first offense is no more of a crime than speeding) of entering the country illegally and any other laws they need to break to stay under the radar, they are not a crime problem. People who have something to hide are far less likely to act out with violent crime.

Violent crime is far more a native born problem than an immigrant problem. Immigrants, both legal and illegal are far less likely to commit serious crimes. The legal immigration process puts people through the wringer with background checks and weeds out people who are criminally oriented. The illegal immigrants have an incentive to keep their head down and out of trouble. illegal immigrants are much more likely to be unreported victims of crimes.

Because of the low crime rate among immigrants and the decline in illegal immigration most Democrats consider border security a priority, but a lower one than many other problems in this country like health care, economic opportunity, and government corruption. Virtually all Democrats will agree that the immigration system is broken and needs to be re-hauled, but few Democrats would agree that a border wall is anywhere near the best solution. The section that is fenced or walled now is easily breached or defeated and it does nothing for the refugee crisis or the legal immigration system's problems. It also does zip for those people who come here on a legal visa and stay after the visa expires, which is a major vector for illegal immigration today.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You have no practical experience at the border yet you regurgitate a bunch of "facts" that fit your beliefs. I have family that live 30 miles from the border and they deal with a lot of serious problems on regular basis.

Human trafficking is a brutal business and it's not uncommon to find dead bodies in the desert. The smugglers are looking at very serious charges if caught and are willing to kill not to get caught. I have a nephew who works in the oil fields near the border. He's a target because he's out there alone with a vehicle.

There's also literally oil smuggling going on which brings the same brutality that the drug cartels do. Of course the media never covers any of these issues.
 
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No. Please, for your own sake, be much more careful about your logic. I disagree with your opinion, not that you should stop looking like a fool if you want. That's the best thing we've got going for reform of the Republican and the Democratic Parties as well. Watch Trump going forward as he continues to struggle in the quick sand of his opinions. He is a great teacher of malpractice.

Even if you don't I'm stopping before the real mods take notice.
The main problem with posting on this thread is that instead of disagreeing in a friendly manner we seem to have to hurl insults at each other, it was not my intention when I came here but when I post a comment and someone insults me then I feel like returning the insults.

I originally came to this forum to learn about the model 3 while waiting for my delivery and through replying to comments made on other threads I received the your post has been quarantined to "Market Politics" notice. I actually find it funny that a site dedicated to cars needs this thread in the first place but I do understand that there is a lot of passion here about Mr. Musk's work and believe it or not I like clean air and water as well.

I leave you with this, Change can only happen through compromise and I hope that can truly happen one day but I don't expect it will be in my lifetime, for those of you who were truly offended by my remarks then I am sorry and sometimes my sarcastic sense of humor is not taken well but I will stick to my guns (see there goes the puns again, damnit!) on my viewpoints as flawed as they may seem to you.

I think I will do my best to steer clear of this thread and responding to political viewpoints in other threads as it really does not do any good to argue a point when both sides are so vehemently opposed on the topic.
 
Well when your presidential candidate says she, "dreams of open borders", it kinda sounds like liberals idea of fixing is different than conservatives.

This is more of an example of what I was saying of the right wing media taking comments out of context and making it into something very different from the original intention:
Donald Trump wrongly says Hillary Clinton wants open borders

You have no idea what you're talking about. You have no practical experience at the border yet you regurgitate a bunch of "facts" that fit your beliefs. I have family that live 30 miles from the border and they deal with a lot of serious problems on regular basis.

Human trafficking is a brutal business and it's not uncommon to find dead bodies in the desert. The smugglers are looking at very serious charges if caught and are willing to kill not to get caught. I have a nephew who works in the oil fields near the border. He's a target because he's out there alone with a vehicle.

There's also literally oil smuggling going on which brings the same brutality that the drug cartels do. Of course the media never covers any of these issues.

Yet the list of safest cities include two border cities:
10 Safest & Most Dangerous Metro Cities of 2018 | SafeWise

The number of border agents has gone up:
https://www.realclearpolicy.com/articles/2018/01/04/five_essential_facts_about_border_security.html

And apprehensions are moving in the opposite direction:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...crisis-is-made-up-one/?utm_term=.c330a2e31de4

Either all those new border agents are incompetent, or the number of attempts is down. Evidence of other related numbers indicates the latter. Nobody is saying its gone to zero, but the problem has decreased over past levels.

Human trafficking is a problem all over the world. I have seen no indication there has been any significant increase on the southern border. But as long as there is demand for trafficked people, someone is going to smuggle people in some way. The key to reducing human trafficking is reduce demand. Legalizing and regulating prostitution would eliminate a hefty chunk of trafficked people into the US, but there are also forced labor of other sorts too.

Legalizing and regulating the drugs currently smuggled into the US would also drastically reduce illegal traffic across the border.

Prohibition of alcohol was repealed in the US because a pro-prohibition committee was commissioned by the president who came to the conclusion that prohibition doesn't work. If there is a demand and it's illegal, a black market will spring up to supply it. If it's legal and regulated, there is more of a chance of containing the problem. Personally I think prostitution is disgusting and would never go that route no matter how lonely I might be (and I did live many years with no mate). I also don't like the feeling of being intoxicated, so I don't even drink more than in small amounts once in a while. But I would prefer vices be regulated and taxed than a net drag on law enforcement resources trying to patch the hole in the Titanic with duct tape.

And while there probably are some people siphoning off oil fro oil wells here and there, the amount of oil being smuggled from US wells is tiny to the point of irrelevance. The most any smuggler is going to be able to move at one time is a tanker truck load and no refinery above a small experimental one is going to buy oil by the tanker truckload.

The main problem with posting on this thread is that instead of disagreeing in a friendly manner we seem to have to hurl insults at each other, it was not my intention when I came here but when I post a comment and someone insults me then I feel like returning the insults.

I originally came to this forum to learn about the model 3 while waiting for my delivery and through replying to comments made on other threads I received the your post has been quarantined to "Market Politics" notice. I actually find it funny that a site dedicated to cars needs this thread in the first place but I do understand that there is a lot of passion here about Mr. Musk's work and believe it or not I like clean air and water as well.

I leave you with this, Change can only happen through compromise and I hope that can truly happen one day but I don't expect it will be in my lifetime, for those of you who were truly offended by my remarks then I am sorry and sometimes my sarcastic sense of humor is not taken well but I will stick to my guns (see there goes the puns again, damnit!) on my viewpoints as flawed as they may seem to you.

I think I will do my best to steer clear of this thread and responding to political viewpoints in other threads as it really does not do any good to argue a point when both sides are so vehemently opposed on the topic.

I don't agree with your views, but I hope I have not offended with my replies. There have been times (even in other threads on this forum) where I have had a minority opinion on something. It isn't comfortable. But even if I disagree with someone, they should be able to have their say. That is the way we may eventually get to compromise. Screaming past one another and then storming off doens't make much progress on the goal of communicating.
 
This has been my problem with the left as of late. Everything involving the border is racist and if you support securing the border, you're a racist.

What's funny is that there are A LOT of non-white folk who live in Texas and other border states who are strong on border security. I love how people like AOC living in New York somehow knows what people in the border towns are dealing with and thinks she has something valid to say about it.

The perception of "border security = racism" from the left has more to do with reacting to the reasons that (some of) those on the right are calling for border security. For example, Trump's statements about illegal immigrants being rapists and drug dealers, etc. Many of the "leaders" on the right (not just Trump) have made many remarks that are essentially racist, when talking about why we need border security. It's not that wanting border security is itself inherently racist (plenty on the left want it too, though sanely implemented, and with address other more important concerns first) but that those on the right get caught up in these racist ideas as to why we need it.

While there is certainly some illegal immigration via border crossing (and probably most of the drug and human trafficking is of this variety, though I don't recall / haven't looked for any information on that one way or the other), statistically most of the illegal immigration is legal visitors who overstay their visa - so for the most part a wall will have no effect on illegal immigration.

As for stopping criminals (drug / human traffickers) and the non-criminal (relatively) illegal immigration via border crossing - you can't build a wall that someone motivated won't find a way over, under, or through. It's wasted effort. The better approach is the "smart wall" concept of a network of sensing systems along the border - since you can just go past them and try your luck, we're more likely to catch anyone who crosses (versus a wall with no sensors where it might be days or weeks before a patrol notices where a crossing took place). Those metal slat walls that Trump had been going on about can be cut through with a hack saw and some time. Drug cartels have been going under the border for years. Better to make an "inviting" crossing with which to sucker in the criminal element and know when and where they crossed so they can be caught.

And putting aside humans for a minute, if Trump gets his wall, it will cut off portions of the US and abandon them to a no-man's land between the border and the wall. Families will be eminent domain'd out of their homes and property. Wildlife will not be able to migrate, which could lead to major ecological impacts. Much of the Rio Grande will become inaccessible, some not even visible.



Increased border enforcement actually increases the number of undocumented immigrants living in the US after the increase occurs (because otherwise they would come for work and go back to their families, but after an increase they stay to avoid being caught on returning for work). And even if we got rid of them entirely, that would just hurt our agriculture among other industries. For the most part they work jobs that "real Americans" would refuse to work, even at above minimum wage rates. We need their willingness to do the jobs that most "real Americans" won't at any price. They're vital to our economy.

As for the calls for "open borders" - it isn't that progressives want zero security or checkpoints, but that it should be trivial to flow back and forth, with minimal barriers to commerce, tourism, migrant workers, etc. Ideally everyone (who isn't an actual criminal) would be allowed in, legally, but instead of treating migrant labor as the valuable economic tool it is, those on the right want to wipe them out of existence.

We would need to expand the various departments that oversee granting visas / green cards / etc in order to legalize and document the illegal immigrants, as well as increase the daily capacity of the various legal crossing points, which in turn would mean more tax revenue from a greater number of them being paid legally rather than under the table, and possibly higher pay for them (which will translate into higher sales tax when they then buy various things here before going home), etc. The larger our legal workforce, the more money move around, the healthier our economy.
 
"As for the calls for "open borders" - it isn't that progressives want zero security or checkpoints, but that it should be trivial to flow back and forth, with minimal barriers to commerce, tourism, migrant workers, etc. Ideally everyone (who isn't an actual criminal) would be allowed in, legally, but instead of treating migrant labor as the valuable economic tool it is, those on the right want to wipe them out of existence."

I find it incredibly strange that one hand of money funds policies like boarder walls to keep out migrant workers while some of those same monied interests profit from those very workers. Trump is a prime example.

I had a friend while working in France who left the company we were working for and tried to start an enterprise. It was literally impossible for him to find a way to get paid while he was physically in the country.

I've said this before but, if you really want to stop illegal immigration at the boarder or people overstaying their visas for that matter, you can start by putting white people in jail for paying people under the table. If you put white people in jail, people of color will know you are serious and most will alter their behavior. It is the old prostitution argument. Is the prostitute responsible, the john or the law against it?
 
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