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Have a little faith in people. Any substantial change requires time. Bernie's analysis of our problems and their solution have been the same for 30 years and remain so. They have been standard practice in Scandinavia even longer. Let him start unpacking the Green New Deal and see how people like it. Let people decide in the primaries. Eisenhower said, "I think that people want peace so much that one of these days government had better get out of their way and let them have it." There's intense fear of Christianizing capitalism here.

Edit: Seems to me, though a non-believer, the Pope agrees. Despite a lot of dead weight in the Church he's moving as fast as he can.
 
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There are additional signs the Trump Administration's incompetence should be a prime factor in guaranteeing either a possibly stunning defeat this year or at least another nail in his historical shame—handling the coming COVID-19 pandemic.

Anderson Cooper today showed a resounding clip of a Republican House member grilling the head of the Homeland Security Department on his ignorance of COVID-19 response planning. Later, Rachel Maddow spent much of her program based on Laurie Garrett's piece in Foreign Policy, January 31, 2020.

Trump Has Sabotaged America’s Coronavirus Response

TMCers are well acquainted with the administration's success in rolling back or reversing Obama's agenda on climate change, Iran nukes, etc. But in 2018 Trump also abolished Obama planning for what to do for the next pandemic based on experience gained from the ebola crisis. If the pandemic hits us hard, which Larry Kudlow just said can't happen because the administration has nearly fully contained it, the Dunce in Chief may yet lose his clothing as a stable genius.

I know, off topic. But what about the markets for the last two days? Trump has said that will change in April. Not to worry.
 
There are additional signs the Trump Administration's incompetence should be a prime factor in guaranteeing either a possibly stunning defeat this year or at least another nail in his historical shame—handling the coming COVID-19 pandemic.

Anderson Cooper today showed a resounding clip of a Republican House member grilling the head of the Homeland Security Department on his ignorance of COVID-19 response planning. Later, Rachel Maddow spent much of her program based on Laurie Garrett's piece in Foreign Policy, January 31, 2020.

Trump Has Sabotaged America’s Coronavirus Response

TMCers are well acquainted with the administration's success in rolling back or reversing Obama's agenda on climate change, Iran nukes, etc. But in 2018 Trump also abolished Obama planning for what to do for the next pandemic based on experience gained from the ebola crisis. If the pandemic hits us hard, which Larry Kudlow just said can't happen because the administration has nearly fully contained it, the Dunce in Chief may yet lose his clothing as a stable genius.

I know, off topic. But what about the markets for the last two days? Trump has said that will change in April. Not to worry.

What a colossal load of horse @#$%.

It's a pandemic virus, as someone with a Ph.D. in molecular biology (in addition to the M.D.), I can tell you for FACT that there is NO POSSIBLE response that will stop the spread of something like this. Zilch. Even an authoritarian regime like China is powerless to prevent the spread of an AIRBORNE virus (Ebola is not airborne, FYI).

Closing down entire cities, like what China has done, preventing people from even going outdoors and having ANY meaningful human contact, like what China has done, is not sufficient to stop the spread of something like this.

Man, the hatred of Trump by yourself is so palpable that you will stretch to any means to find a reason to blame him . . . for anything, won't you?
 
There are additional signs the Trump Administration's incompetence should be a prime factor in guaranteeing either a possibly stunning defeat this year or at least another nail in his historical shame—handling the coming COVID-19 pandemic.

Anderson Cooper today showed a resounding clip of a Republican House member grilling the head of the Homeland Security Department on his ignorance of COVID-19 response planning. Later, Rachel Maddow spent much of her program based on Laurie Garrett's piece in Foreign Policy, January 31, 2020.

Trump Has Sabotaged America’s Coronavirus Response

TMCers are well acquainted with the administration's success in rolling back or reversing Obama's agenda on climate change, Iran nukes, etc. But in 2018 Trump also abolished Obama planning for what to do for the next pandemic based on experience gained from the ebola crisis. If the pandemic hits us hard, which Larry Kudlow just said can't happen because the administration has nearly fully contained it, the Dunce in Chief may yet lose his clothing as a stable genius.

I know, off topic. But what about the markets for the last two days? Trump has said that will change in April. Not to worry.

The economic impact from this outbreak will probably last a year or more. China produces a large number of products in the world and most of the products that aren't made in China include components made in China. Just the economic disruption with China essentially shutting down so suddenly is setting off ripples throughout the world's economy.

I don't see the sort of death toll in the developed world (Europe, North America, Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and other countries with similarly advanced health systems) being staggeringly high. We're still at least six months from a vaccine for this virus, possibly longer, and there is no cure, but developed countries have the best secondary care in the world that allows the most people infected with a disease with a self cure rate the best chance to heal on their own and prevent secondary infections. Many of the people who died in the 1918 flu pandemic developed pneumonia. We can treat pneumonia and prevent it better than we did 100 years ago. As well as other secondary infections people weakened by disease tended to get 100 years ago.

China is a very crowded country and the sanitary standards in much of the country are not on par with many developed countries. Because it's the genesis country for the disease, it was widespread in that country before they knew it existed. The government has been lying about the figures, but they are claiming now that the epidemic there has peaked and the case numbers are dropping. That may or may not be true. We'll see in the next few weeks.

If the cases have peaked in China, the overall death toll has been relatively light for a country of over 1 billion people.

Trump's incompetence has drastically weakened the US's ability to respond to this outbreak. They have been thinking completely politically and not from a perspective of policy and that has resulted in the CDC's budget getting slashed, the government flying home 14 people from the cruise ship in Japan who tested positive with no containment (other people on that flight may have been infected and that could be the start of the US spread), and Trump has been more concerned about the stock market's reaction than any actual policy to deal with the problem.

The cruise ship issue is another example of politics over policy. When it started, the administration was content to let the Americans trapped on the ship to rot, until a passenger who personally knew a Republican congressman made a call, then it suddenly became a high priority to bring them all home, even with 14 infected. There was a long delay transferring the passengers from the ship to the airport after they discovered the infected passengers while loading them onto the bus. The CDC did not want to move the infected passengers, but the administration insisted. That decision may be the genesis of an uncontained outbreak in the US.

That was on Feb 17 and I've read the incubation period is about 14 days. We should know by next week.

Trump has been very, very lucky as president. He has not had to face any serious world problems in the three years he's been in office. GW Bush had 9/11 in his first year and Obama came into office under the largest economic meltdown since the Great Depression. This is looking like Trump's Katrina. He crippled the government department tasked with dealing with this sort of thing, and he's playing politics at a time that should be focused on policy.

The human cost of this virus in the developing world could be catastrophic, but the biggest impact in the developed world will likely be more economic both from unnecessary panic as well as real economic impact from supply chains being disrupted. Though even in the developed world there will be people who probably won't be here next year who will be lost to this disease.

Another case of putting politics ahead of policy that goes back a decade is the decision by Republican governors to not take the expansion of Medicaid as part of the ACA. It's resulting in a wave of rural hospital closures in red states:
72 Percent of All Rural Hospital Closures Are in States That Rejected the Medicaid Expansion

This could result in the impact on human life from the corona virus being felt more heavily in red states than blue, even though it's more likely there will be more cases in blue states (the Pacific Rim states have more direct contact with China than most of the rest of the country).

I had a feeling that the corona virus was going to have legs when I heard about it's incubation period. Ebola and SARS are only a few days, which makes them much easier to contain. A 14 day incubation period allows it to spread pretty far before anyone knows it exists. A disease that is easily transmitted, with a long incubation period, with a high mortality rate is the trifecta that keeps infectious disease specialists up at night. Corona isn't an ultra high mortality rate, but it's up there. But it meets the first two criteria.
 
What a colossal load of horse @#$%.

It's a pandemic virus, as someone with a Ph.D. in molecular biology (in addition to the M.D.), I can tell you for FACT that there is NO POSSIBLE response that will stop the spread of something like this. Zilch. Even an authoritarian regime like China is powerless to prevent the spread of an AIRBORNE virus (Ebola is not airborne, FYI).

Closing down entire cities, like what China has done, preventing people from even going outdoors and having ANY meaningful human contact, like what China has done, is not sufficient to stop the spread of something like this.

Man, the hatred of Trump by yourself is so palpable that you will stretch to any means to find a reason to blame him . . . for anything, won't you?
@bkp_duke
I’m impressed that mere statements of fact elicit such vitriol.
Buyers regret and lashing out at messengers isn’t pretty or useful.

Please tell me how gutting the CDC and other agencies responsible for pandemic response, among others and putting incompetents in charge is helping now?

how do we solve problems when trump and sycophants have tried to destroy agencies that might have fixed or mitigated them?
 
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@winfield100
I have no "buyers regret". I will be voting for Trump over Sanders in November. That choice is far easier than voting against Hillary was (and that was my motivation - vote against her, not necessarily for him).

I stand by the facts (and yes, they are facts):
China's authoritarian response to this virus is impressive, and yet that has shown to be insufficient to prevent the spread of the virus. And I'm 100% certain that the numbers being reported from China are FAR FAR lower than the actual number of cases and deaths. Why, otherwise, would they prevent the WHO for weeks from entering, and reject assistance from the CDC still to this day? Saving face is just an excuse to cover up the actual numbers.

Trump's budget cuts simply returned the CDC to pre-Obama levels. Don't be over-dramatic in how you paint this picture. The Obama administration nearly doubled the CDC's funding in the early 2010s, but that increase wasn't for parts of the budget that deal with outbreaks. This was simply bring things back down from "crazy" levels.

The KEY part of the CDC budget related to a pandemic or regional outbreak of a threatening disease is the "Global Health Security" section. The rest, not so much. That has remained essentially unchanged. It was appropriately bumped up during the Ebola outbreak (with an emergency one-time response funding request), and then dropped back. Are you neglecting to mention that the President just requested 1.25B in emergency funding, to be used by the CDC under the GHS budget? I think so. Here is the hard data, for those that care:
9111-02-Figure-1.png



Oh, and if the President were truly so far afield on this, you would see the dems screaming bloody murder. They haven't been. They were conspicuously quiet when Trump went ballistic on the military evacuating the cruise ship US citizens, of which 14 (probably more) were infected. That was a colossal bone-headed move.
 
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The economic impact from this outbreak will probably last a year or more. China produces a large number of products in the world and most of the products that aren't made in China include components made in China. Just the economic disruption with China essentially shutting down so suddenly is setting off ripples throughout the world's economy.

I don't see the sort of death toll in the developed world (Europe, North America, Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and other countries with similarly advanced health systems) being staggeringly high. We're still at least six months from a vaccine for this virus, possibly longer, and there is no cure, but developed countries have the best secondary care in the world that allows the most people infected with a disease with a self cure rate the best chance to heal on their own and prevent secondary infections. Many of the people who died in the 1918 flu pandemic developed pneumonia. We can treat pneumonia and prevent it better than we did 100 years ago. As well as other secondary infections people weakened by disease tended to get 100 years ago.

China is a very crowded country and the sanitary standards in much of the country are not on par with many developed countries. Because it's the genesis country for the disease, it was widespread in that country before they knew it existed. The government has been lying about the figures, but they are claiming now that the epidemic there has peaked and the case numbers are dropping. That may or may not be true. We'll see in the next few weeks.

If the cases have peaked in China, the overall death toll has been relatively light for a country of over 1 billion people.

Trump's incompetence has drastically weakened the US's ability to respond to this outbreak. They have been thinking completely politically and not from a perspective of policy and that has resulted in the CDC's budget getting slashed, the government flying home 14 people from the cruise ship in Japan who tested positive with no containment (other people on that flight may have been infected and that could be the start of the US spread), and Trump has been more concerned about the stock market's reaction than any actual policy to deal with the problem.

The cruise ship issue is another example of politics over policy. When it started, the administration was content to let the Americans trapped on the ship to rot, until a passenger who personally knew a Republican congressman made a call, then it suddenly became a high priority to bring them all home, even with 14 infected. There was a long delay transferring the passengers from the ship to the airport after they discovered the infected passengers while loading them onto the bus. The CDC did not want to move the infected passengers, but the administration insisted. That decision may be the genesis of an uncontained outbreak in the US.

That was on Feb 17 and I've read the incubation period is about 14 days. We should know by next week.

Trump has been very, very lucky as president. He has not had to face any serious world problems in the three years he's been in office. GW Bush had 9/11 in his first year and Obama came into office under the largest economic meltdown since the Great Depression. This is looking like Trump's Katrina. He crippled the government department tasked with dealing with this sort of thing, and he's playing politics at a time that should be focused on policy.

The human cost of this virus in the developing world could be catastrophic, but the biggest impact in the developed world will likely be more economic both from unnecessary panic as well as real economic impact from supply chains being disrupted. Though even in the developed world there will be people who probably won't be here next year who will be lost to this disease.

Another case of putting politics ahead of policy that goes back a decade is the decision by Republican governors to not take the expansion of Medicaid as part of the ACA. It's resulting in a wave of rural hospital closures in red states:
72 Percent of All Rural Hospital Closures Are in States That Rejected the Medicaid Expansion

This could result in the impact on human life from the corona virus being felt more heavily in red states than blue, even though it's more likely there will be more cases in blue states (the Pacific Rim states have more direct contact with China than most of the rest of the country).

I had a feeling that the corona virus was going to have legs when I heard about it's incubation period. Ebola and SARS are only a few days, which makes them much easier to contain. A 14 day incubation period allows it to spread pretty far before anyone knows it exists. A disease that is easily transmitted, with a long incubation period, with a high mortality rate is the trifecta that keeps infectious disease specialists up at night. Corona isn't an ultra high mortality rate, but it's up there. But it meets the first two criteria.

I concur (with much of your first few paragraphs, at least). The economic impact of this will be deep, and wide. This will do far more damage to both the Chinese and US economies than the tariff war could have ever done.

We have enough data now to surmise a death rate from this virus: approximately 2.5% +/- 0.2% in the population overall. Higher in the elderly and those with underlying medical conditions, lower in the young and healthy. That's not close to SARS, MERS, or Spanish Influenze rates of death, but it really is high given how far this thing is expected to spread. One top-end estimate I have heard is that as much as 40% of the world population is expected to be exposed / infected. If that pans out, and the death rate holds at the level it is now, that would be approximately 85 million deaths world wide.

Your assumptions about Chinese sanitation standards are simply not very accurate. They are essentially up to par with Eastern Europe, which is just ever so slightly behind Western Europe and the US. But sanitation standards are more critical for viruses that spread with person to person and fecal-oral mechanisms. COVID-19 is primarily a respiratory virus (person coughs, "covers" their mouth, gets it on their hands, and then touches a surface that someone in the future - up to days later - touches).

You are also incorrect that the 14 people flown back were not under proper containment guidelines - they were. They were just not separated soon enough. And I completely disagree with you and would have left the people on the cruise ship either there or in Japan under quarantine. Bringing them back to the US was an unacceptable risk, period. There should be ZERO emotion at play here, as, sadly, that greatly weakens your response to proper quarantine management.

For the record - the administration underlings, not Trump, moved the US passengers off that cruise ship and brought them home. That should have not happened, and the President was right to get pissed that his underlings did that without his approval.

And due to the long incubation period of the virus, and method of spread, large urban centers will be FAR more affected the rural areas. Sorry, this is going to affect your precious blue states far more than red states.


The best possible allocation of resources is going to be towards vaccine creation for this. There is a fantastic company in San Diego (Inovio) that has already mapped the genome of COVID-19 and put into production a vaccine that they have requested the first round of clinical trials for.
Is a vaccine for the coronavirus coming? Inovio says it has designed one in San Diego

My only question is will the anti-vaxers hold their line in the sand on "natural immunity" during a pandemic. :D
 
The spread may have been worse without their action.

I don't argue that at all. I commend their efforts. But I believe even with the resources of a totalitarian regime, they cannot stop the spread of this.

Now, if we are entertaining conspiracy theories, where do we REALLY think this came from? The meat market in Wuhan, or the Level 4 viral research center in the same city . . . food for thought.
 
Interesting, I was not aware of that connection.

I'm not saying it was intentionally released. But the only L4 viral facility in China in the same city as the epicenter for the outbreak . . . and China doesn't want the CDC involved (which has the best epidemiologists in the world, bar none, including the WHO), and any Chinese citizen that is doing on-the-ground reporting is getting disappeared. Yeah, that's a heavy coincidence there. Accident cover-up perhaps?
 
Article suggesting that that some facility workers may have been illegally selling lab animals in the market for extra cash :eek:

Add to this China’s history of similar incidents. Even the deadly SARS virus has escaped — twice — from the Beijing lab where it was being used in experiments. Both were quickly contained, but neither would have happened at all if proper safety precautions had been taken.

And then there is this little-known fact: Some Chinese researchers are believed to sell laboratory animals to street vendors after they have finished experimenting on them.

You heard me right.

Instead of properly disposing of infected animals by cremation, as the law requires, they sell them on the side to make a little extra cash. Or, in some cases, a lot of extra cash. One Beijing researcher, now in jail, made the equivalent of a million dollars selling monkeys and rats on the live animal market, whence they likely wound up in someone’s stomach.
Author argues the coronavirus behind the COVID-19 outbreak may have leaked from a Chinese virology lab
 
There was a time when I had respect for that man. It is now lost, in spite of his phenomenal wardrobe collection.

I was looking for a way to rate your post both 'Like' and 'Funny'. The bigger picture is finally unfolding decades later that there was likely a reason that Carville worked so hard to get a president elected (Clinton) that was willing to move the Democratic Party as far to the right as voters would allow.........and then some.

It really speaks poorly of both parties that as far back as the Carter Administration there were efforts being made to promote Solar (Carter even installed solar panels on the White House, which Reagan had later removed) and to promote Plant-Based Meat alternatives to help curb our growing environmental impact - which was already well understood at that time. We should thank James Carville and the Media that keeps trotting him out before us for their tireless efforts to move us backwards, and for their current clandestine efforts to once again steal an election from the will of the people in such an undemocratic manner to help preserve the current failed paradigm.

Plant-Based Meat Has Roots in the 1970s
 
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What a colossal load of horse @#$%.

It's a pandemic virus, as someone with a Ph.D. in molecular biology (in addition to the M.D.), I can tell you for FACT that there is NO POSSIBLE response that will stop the spread of something like this. Zilch. Even an authoritarian regime like China is powerless to prevent the spread of an AIRBORNE virus (Ebola is not airborne, FYI).

Closing down entire cities, like what China has done, preventing people from even going outdoors and having ANY meaningful human contact, like what China has done, is not sufficient to stop the spread of something like this.

Man, the hatred of Trump by yourself is so palpable that you will stretch to any means to find a reason to blame him . . . for anything, won't you?

You must be the only physician aside from Trump's who thinks its a bad idea to prepare the public with measures that might minimize exposure, such as tele education or working at home. Very interesting. Obviously, I don't keep up with medical science except for some articles in Lancet that come my way. Has the germ theory been repealed? /s Do you agree Larry Kudlow deserves your vituperative label? I know it is difficult for some to criticize the prez or his enablers.
 
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