Market politics

[MikeQ]

It could also be how "unexcited" people are about a Biden presidency.


We know how the left are going to vote, we know how the right are going to vote. The crucial voters for this election are the people in the middle (independents). If you look at recent poling on that group, they are not as concerned about COVID-19 as they are the economy and law enforcement. Those are developing into the two biggest issues, not COVID-19.

I'm certainly more concerned about the economy than I am COVID. Keeping myself safe from a virus isn't the presidents job. I can do that myself.

 

[jbcarioca]

Just how can anybody be 'independent' in this situation. That is not quite the same thing as Republican or Democrat. I think I am not atypical. Economically I am a Republican, but the current "Republican" administration opposes nearly every economic principle on which Republicanism once stood. The current administration is dismantling the EPA given us by Republicans under Nixon. Foreign policy, trade policy...none of those are Republican.
Socially I trend towards Democrat positions. Historically most Republicans have not necessarily rejected those, even when they were not enthusiastic supporters.

Obviously the official Party positions have shifted quite dramatically over the years. Few ever rejected prudence and justice as principles other than the occasional radical such as Joe McCarthy, George Wallace, plus assorted extremists to be found always in both houses of Congress. They sometimes had outsized influence but more prudent voices eventually tended to soften their effects.

Today the lunatics seem to be running the asylum and the alleged sane ones forget all their principles. Lindsey Graham and his ilk dropped all pretense of sanity.
In this environment we know that changing the entirety President, House and Senate to democrats still will be unlikely to make material advances. In harsh reality the last years have destroyed huge portions of US Government capacity. The Civil Service has been deeply compromised, the judiciary populated with often unqualified pugilists.

How long, if ever, will it take to restore US credibility? Is it even possible?

 

[bkp_duke]

Just how can anybody be 'independent' in this situation. That is not quite the same thing as Republican or Democrat. I think I am not atypical. Economically I am a Republican, but the current "Republican" administration opposes nearly every economic principle on which Republicanism once stood. The current administration is dismantling the EPA given us by Republicans under Nixon. Foreign policy, trade policy...none of those are Republican.
Socially I trend towards Democrat positions. Historically most Republicans have not necessarily rejected those, even when they were not enthusiastic supporters.

Obviously the official Party positions have shifted quite dramatically over the years. Few ever rejected prudence and justice as principles other than the occasional radical such as Joe McCarthy, George Wallace, plus assorted extremists to be found always in both houses of Congress. They sometimes had outsized influence but more prudent voices eventually tended to soften their effects.

Today the lunatics seem to be running the asylum and the alleged sane ones forget all their principles. Lindsey Graham and his ilk dropped all pretense of sanity.
In this environment we know that changing the entirety President, House and Senate to democrats still will be unlikely to make material advances. In harsh reality the last years have destroyed huge portions of US Government capacity. The Civil Service has been deeply compromised, the judiciary populated with often unqualified pugilists.

How long, if ever, will it take to restore US credibility? Is it even possible?

If we are talking about dropped sanity, how about a House full of Democrats that insisted on pursuing an impeachment process when the pretense for that (Russian collusion) was based upon completely false and manufactured information (now proven with the admission of an FBI agent in the Durham probe).

To be clear, the Left overwhelmingly supported it. The Right did not. What did that leave? The middle. And the middle did NOT support impeachment.

There are plenty of stones, on both sides, to toss around in this glass house. Until you get both extremes to sit down and work out problems, instead of tossing stones, this will continue.

And honestly, aside from WWIII or an invasion by aliens, I don't see the left and the right coming together for pretty much anything.

 

[jbcarioca]

...the pretense for that (Russian collusion) was based upon completely false and manufactured information (now proven with the admission of an FBI agent in the Durham probe).

...I don't see the left and the right coming together for pretty much anything.

Of course, the Senate report, led by Republicans reaffirmed much of the Russian threat. The factual proven evidence of close dependency of Trump family interests on Russian funding is quite well documented in the various Deutsche Bank documents. The capturing and defenestrating fo the Muller report data is itself quite obvious. This should never have been partisan and only became so when Trump, Manafort, and Flynn coalesced. It's pointless to provide the documentation to people who've already decided. I admit I do not respect Trump much, primarily because one of my first tasks as a commercial maker was coping with the write-off of hundreds of millions of dollars that Trump defaulted on. he was a crook then, is a crook now and seems to have been one before he even made the Great Move from Queens to Manhattan.

As for your last statement I must disagree also. Trump does not represent the Right, he's a populist with strong flavor fo fascism. The Right and the Left in the US have usually managed to coexist, with friction and smoke, but rarely fire. The basic principles of democracy have usually had strong support from all sides. Both the Left and the Right have tended to work to produce honest and fair elections, with gerrymandering and the occasional other act of voter suppression, but almost always without denigrating actual elections. So I strongly disagree with your assertion. That does not mean that people on all sides, when they gain the upper hand, fail to resist the temptation to protect themselves. Were that not so there would never have. been an electoral college devised like the one the US still has.

Even with those defects the US has generally moved, from inception, towards a more perfect union.

That faith is the principle that is now under greatest threat. When mail ballots suddenly turn into an allegation of huge fraud when all sides have depended on them with convince for centuries (literally) we know the system itself is under threat. Both the Left and the Right agree on that one.

The Donald sees that as being illegitimate along with Barack Obama's Birth and Kamala Harris' eligibility. Those three things fit well with Qanon, which even Senator Graham just called "batshit crazy'.

Again, all this has exactly zero to do with Left and Right. It has everything to do with Right and Wrong.

 

[bkp_duke]

Of course, the Senate report, led by Republicans reaffirmed much of the Russian threat. The factual proven evidence of close dependency of Trump family interests on Russian funding is quite well documented in the various Deutsche Bank documents. The capturing and defenestrating fo the Muller report data is itself quite obvious. This should never have been partisan and only became so when Trump, Manafort, and Flynn coalesced. It's pointless to provide the documentation to people who've already decided. I admit I do not respect Trump much, primarily because one of my first tasks as a commercial maker was coping with the write-off of hundreds of millions of dollars that Trump defaulted on. he was a crook then, is a crook now and seems to have been one before he even made the Great Move from Queens to Manhattan.

As for your last statement I must disagree also. Trump does not represent the Right, he's a populist with strong flavor fo fascism. The Right and the Left in the US have usually managed to coexist, with friction and smoke, but rarely fire. The basic principles of democracy have usually had strong support from all sides. Both the Left and the Right have tended to work to produce honest and fair elections, with gerrymandering and the occasional other act of voter suppression, but almost always without denigrating actual elections. So I strongly disagree with your assertion. That does not mean that people on all sides, when they gain the upper hand, fail to resist the temptation to protect themselves. Were that not so there would never have. been an electoral college devised like the one the US still has.

Even with those defects the US has generally moved, from inception, towards a more perfect union.

That faith is the principle that is now under greatest threat. When mail ballots suddenly turn into an allegation of huge fraud when all sides have depended on them with convince for centuries (literally) we know the system itself is under threat. Both the Left and the Right agree on that one.

The Donald sees that as being illegitimate along with Barack Obama's Birth and Kamala Harris' eligibility. Those three things fit well with Qanon, which even Senator Graham just called "batshit crazy'.

Again, all this has exactly zero to do with Left and Right. It has everything to do with Right and Wrong.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Being from the south, I hear (but don't always agree with) many people that feel/believe the progressive agenda is "being forced down their throats". Furthermore, they feel like if they are "Conservative" they are treated like second class citizens. Nothing at all was more exemplifying of this feeling than the "deplorables" comment by H. Clinton in the 2016 race. I would go so far as to say that it was that comment that in and of itself coalesced Trump's base, and likely cost her the election.

The base that supports Trump is not stupid (contrary to what some people may have you believe), and if you really dig in and ask them questions, they do NOT like a lot of the things he does. But what endears him to them, is that they feel he stands up for them and they will forgive him for almost anything for that reason. Basically, they are tired of feeling stepped on and treated as second class citizens by the "coastal elites", and even if that means they have to tolerate an 18-wheeler full of horse !@#$ that Trump brings with him, they believe that is better than remaining silent, being called stupid, and having an agenda that they firmly disagree with shoved down their throats.

For better or worse, he's this group's knight in shining armor, and until someone better comes along that will defend their rights and make their voice heard, he has this base locked up.

 

[NikolaACDC]

I have been growing curious the past few weeks at the disparities in polling between Approve/Disapprove of Trump's handling of Covid,
Approve/Disapprove of Trump, and plan to vote for Trump or Biden. Looking today at consolidated polling by FiveThirtyEight, 19% more questioned disapprove of Trump's handling of Covid than approve. That shrinks to 12% when poll is overall Approve or not of Trump and shrinks further to 9% nationally on who people say they plan to vote for.

You would think that if you disapprove of his handling of the worst health crisis in nearly all peoples lifetimes, you'd disapprove of him in general! And that you wouldn't want to vote for him come Election Day. I'm interested in others views on why these inconsistencies are so large and what can be done to reduce them.
...

Single issue voters in a 2-party system.

If you love your guns and don't want any additional restrictions on purchase and ownership there's only one party that promises that.

If you're a pro-birther that wants to see any and all abortions outlawed there's only one party that promises that.

If you're white and are worried that the coloreds are getting too uppity there is only one party that represents you.

If you equate liberal ideas to communism and hate that with all your heart there is only one party that promises to keep the communists and communist ideas out.

With the above you will cover a large part of Republican voters. And they will vote for that issue disregarding nearly any, or even any other failings and misbehavior by that party and its representatives.

If there were more parties there could be a more nuanced representation of ideas and ideals. Not that that's a given.

 

[NikolaACDC]

I'm certainly more concerned about the economy than I am COVID. Keeping myself safe from a virus isn't the presidents job. I can do that myself.

But the virus and the economy are connected.

 

[bkp_duke]

But the virus and the economy are connected.

But Trump's base does not blame him for the economy due to the virus. If anything, it has strengthened his base, as they view him trying to move things along, and the Dems are hampering him with politics (i.e. trying to get all their liberal wish list in the emergency funding measures).

 

[JRP3]

The insane leadership that foments violence, sends militarized 'troops' and then demonizes anyone who doesn't support him also foments violence by the more radical people who oppose him.

This is key. As the right becomes more radical and militarized you'll end up seeing the same on the left. Trump has tapped into the worst of the extreme right and whipped them into an irrational frenzy.

 

[JRP3]

If we are talking about dropped sanity, how about a House full of Democrats that insisted on pursuing an impeachment process when the pretense for that (Russian collusion) was based upon completely false and manufactured information (now proven with the admission of an FBI agent in the Durham probe).

To be clear, the Left overwhelmingly supported it. The Right did not. What did that leave? The middle. And the middle did NOT support impeachment.

There are plenty of stones, on both sides, to toss around in this glass house. Until you get both extremes to sit down and work out problems, instead of tossing stones, this will continue.

The difference is that the Dem's pursuing impeachment had little to no real effect on the country or it's citizens. It's no comparison to the anti-science fascist lunacy we're seeing from the right. This is another example of "whataboutism". Quite simply the ineffective corporate Dem's are not the ones currently destroying the country.

 

[JRP3]

The base that supports Trump is not stupid (contrary to what some people may have you believe), and if you really dig in and ask them questions, they do NOT like a lot of the things he does. But what endears him to them, is that they feel he stands up for them and they will forgive him for almost anything for that reason.

But that is stupid because other than lip service he has not stood up for the working class in the least.

 

[jbcarioca]

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

...
For better or worse, he's this group's knight in shining armor, and until someone better comes along that will defend their rights and make their voice heard, he has this base locked up.

Not really. you did not disagree that it was not a matter of left vs right.
It most definitely is a matter of relative education levels and belief in human rights vs white rights. I understand a bit of this since I have close relatives who are Trump supporters. They are the ones who flunked out of school when they were smarter than the ones who stayed, the ones who took welfare and fought against the Affordable Care Act, just before they signed up for it. It si most definitely about white supremacy as my sister berated the "Mexicans who brought Covid-19 with them". Once again the core supporters are not Right vs Left. They are the ones who resent others who devote more effort than they and blame the Left because others succeed where they fail.
You obviously know all this is true.
However, there are a good many very wealthy and successful people who resent needing to share their wealth with poorer people. Those really are not "Right" or "Republican" they're more akin to the "America First" crowd than the "America's Dream" ones:
https://www.amazon.com/Behold-America-Entangled-History-American/dp/1541673409

 

[bkp_duke]

Not really. you did not disagree that it was not a matter of left vs right.
It most definitely is a matter of relative education levels and belief in human rights vs white rights. I understand a bit of this since I have close relatives who are Trump supporters. They are the ones who flunked out of school when they were smarter than the ones who stayed, the ones who took welfare and fought against the Affordable Care Act, just before they signed up for it. It si most definitely about white supremacy as my sister berated the "Mexicans who brought Covid-19 with them". Once again the core supporters are not Right vs Left. They are the ones who resent others who devote more effort than they and blame the Left because others succeed where they fail.
You obviously know all this is true.
However, there are a good many very wealthy and successful people who resent needing to share their wealth with poorer people. Those really are not "Right" or "Republican" they're more akin to the "America First" crowd than the "America's Dream" ones:
https://www.amazon.com/Behold-America-Entangled-History-American/dp/1541673409

Expand your sample size then. My entire family falls under the "well educated" group (Masters or higher for everyone), and every last one of them voted for Trump in the last election.

Simply put, they didn't trust H. Clinton, and being Christians they are fundamentally opposed to much of the progressive agenda (but they are staunch environmental supporters).

So, your viewpoint is one that is narrow, and like most with that viewpoint you simply cite examples that you believe support this view.


I'm just the messenger here, I'm very undecided how I will vote come November, and am leaning to just not voting for either crappy candidate. But I grew up in and am still very much in close contact with what the left would call "Trumpers". Your psychological profile of them is wanting, at best.

 

[bkp_duke]

But that is stupid because other than lip service he has not stood up for the working class in the least.

They very much view it as the lesser of two evils. If he has "not stood up for them", they view that as better than what the liberal agenda has done to them during the Clinton and Obama administrations.


Again, don't shoot the messenger, but if you guys SERIOUSLY want to have conversations with these people (instead of just bash them as "stupid"), you need to understand them better. And they are not as "simple" as you claim. In fact, it is that claim that makes them resent the left so much.

Am I getting through to anyone here, or are we just talking at each other while wearing headphones cranked up to 11?

 

[MikeQ]

But the virus and the economy are connected.

Only in some sectors.

 

[MikeQ]

But that is stupid because other than lip service he has not stood up for the working class in the least.

His crackdown on China and H1B abuse has had job offers flying in like never before.

Too bad I start retirement on Monday.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

If we are talking about dropped sanity, how about a House full of Democrats that insisted on pursuing an impeachment process when the pretense for that (Russian collusion) was based upon completely false and manufactured information (now proven with the admission of an FBI agent in the Durham probe).

To be clear, the Left overwhelmingly supported it. The Right did not. What did that leave? The middle. And the middle did NOT support impeachment.

There are plenty of stones, on both sides, to toss around in this glass house. Until you get both extremes to sit down and work out problems, instead of tossing stones, this will continue.

And honestly, aside from WWIII or an invasion by aliens, I don't see the left and the right coming together for pretty much anything.

So evidence of actual wrongdoing is meaningless, because of bad intent to start the investigation in the first place? Because that was the point of the Durham probe, to prove that someone was out to get Trump, not that he hadn't done anything wrong.

 

[bkp_duke]

So evidence of actual wrongdoing is meaningless, because of bad intent to start the investigation in the first place? Because that was the point of the Durham probe, to prove that someone was out to get Trump, not that he hadn't done anything wrong.

What evidence? Trump was never impeached on foreign collusion and the Mueller probe did not find evidence of such.

There WAS evidence, and a confession, by an FBI official that the FISA warrant that started all of it was . . . manipulated.

 

[MikeQ]

But the virus and the economy are connected.

I'm also not saying things couldn't have been handled better. They certainly could have but to what extent they would be effective is questionable. As we've seen in Florida, much of the explosion came from people who didn't follow the basic guidelines to begin with.
Spring Break was a huge spreader here in Florida and when officials closed the beaches the Spring Breakers just took the party indoors to the hotels.

I also believe that if Trump had taken draconian measures and forced a total lock down that the left would be complaining about that too. They'd either label him a dictator or they'd complain he destroyed the economy.

I also believe that draconian measures would have caused more civil unrest than we have now and a strong crackdown would again be met with claims of totalitarianism.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

What evidence? Trump was never impeached on foreign collusion and the Mueller probe did not find evidence of such.

There WAS evidence, and a confession, by an FBI official that the FISA warrant that started all of it was . . . manipulated.

Trump was impeached for abuse of power and obstruction of congress, not foreign collusion.