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I am not getting involved in a political discussion on this forum going forward. It has been my Achilles heel on this forum and it only takes away from the joy of this forum. I get that it is heavily biased in one on one side and I would prefer to keep my views to myself and just enjoy life, I suggest you all do the same.

I will however come back here if Trump is impeached and eat a pile of crow. Happy to do it if that is the outcome because it will mean something dirty went down, beyond the typical dirtiness of politics and op research. I will also comeback and gloat if the economy does well and budgets are balanced based on higher GDP and growth, similar to the Reagan and Clinton years. I always thought Clinton governed from the center and I think it paid off for the country. Sadly, those days are long gone. Wish we had a third party.

No collusion? What the heck. I thought Trump would have been led away in shackles by now. And no obstruction? Hrmph. I guess no Crow for me this week. Let's see what the SDNY comes up with, but Mueller team was already stacked with Dems and Trump haters.

As always, I won't be reading and responses. I'll come back when Trump is impeached and eat all the crow. Or when Trump is reelected because Dems wont let Russia go.
 
BTW, my opinion is also that while Trump's Russia actions would have been political suicide in another era - they are not what many liberals make it out to be. It is mostly wishful thinking - hoping to get rid off him without having to actually fight him at the polls. It is possible that Mueller will not make a strong case against Trump in his final report (if it even gets released).

The indictment question is about the criminal conspiracy to hack/rig the election with Russia's help part. That is where I'm not sure that Mueller has any/much dirt. He runs a very tight ship with no leakages.

As I was saying …. Mueller has found on collusion and not confirmed anything about obstruction of justice. The cottage industry of Russia conspiracy theorists is over.

Mueller Finds No Trump-Russia Conspiracy but Stops Short of Exonerating President on Obstruction of Justice
 
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This is a true yet at the end, a balanced tour de force. Does Nate Silver accept unsolicited manuscripts? I'd like to see his blessing of your statistics, not that I see any to challenge, but I'm nowhere near your competence in using them. The thought crossed my mind some time ago Barr might be a plant. Do you know if he has a connection to James A. Baker? He's smart enough to engineer something like what you suggest and would have the motivation.

You make an old man hopeful.

Barr and Baker almost certainly crossed paths in the George HW Bush administration. Barr was appointed Assistant AG for the Office of Legal Counsel when Baker was Secretary of State and was later promoted to Deputy AG and finally AG when Baker was Chief of Staff at the White House.

Barr was also a spook at the CIA from 1973 to 1977. Barr's first political appointee job was in the Reagan administration.

As far as submitting analysis to fivethirtyeight, I appreciate the sentiment, but my analysis is probably not rigorous enough for them. Their work tends to be very data driven, though I suspect they would come to a similar conclusion if they went down that road.

No collusion? What the heck. I thought Trump would have been led away in shackles by now. And no obstruction? Hrmph. I guess no Crow for me this week. Let's see what the SDNY comes up with, but Mueller team was already stacked with Dems and Trump haters.

As always, I won't be reading and responses. I'll come back when Trump is impeached and eat all the crow. Or when Trump is reelected because Dems wont let Russia go.

How is the Mueller team stacked with Dems or Trump haters? The only ones saying that are Trump and Fox News, neither reliable sources. Mueller himself is a lifelong Republican and most of the members of his team are, as far as I can tell, apolitical. At least there is no public information about their political affiliations. This article has information on many of Mueller's key people:
Robert Mueller and His Prosecutors: Who They Are and What They’ve Done

What Mueller did do was put together a team with experts in organized crime, money laundering, and espionage. Any bias on the team is that most if not all are big rule of law proponents.

As I was saying …. Mueller has found on collusion and not confirmed anything about obstruction of justice. The cottage industry of Russia conspiracy theorists is over.

Mueller Finds No Trump-Russia Conspiracy but Stops Short of Exonerating President on Obstruction of Justice

My SO read the memo as soon as it came out and immediately concluded Rosenstein is a genius. Mueller's instructions were very clever. He was given broad powers to investigate Trump and the 2016 election, but was given a very narrow focus for his report. For his report he was told to focus on just collusion between the Russian government and the Trump campaign in the 2016 election. Being able to prove actual collusion (conspiracy against the United States in US law) between the Russian government and Trump to the sort of level Mueller would be willing to indict was small. Mueller is very conservative with indictments and only is willing to indict when he's 99% confident of a conviction.

However Mueller was free to follow any lead where it led him and then pass off that information to other prosecutors. We've only seen one prosecutor take on a lead from Mueller thus far because it was in Mueller's interest that it move forward: Michael Cohen. There is almost certainly more in the pipeline.

The legal community is coming down on the news media very hard for spinning this as over. We're at the end of the first act of the Ring Cycle (longest opera in history). The story is far from over, it's just started developing. What an experienced attorney looks for in any legal document is not just what it says, but what it specifically doesn't say. A good attorney knows how to write a document that tells truths they can't explicitly say directly. And Barr did that. To those trained to read between the lines (which my SO is good at, but I'm not), Barr said a lot that this isn't over.

We'll now see what comes out in the next year. If the evidence coming out from Congressional investigations and indictments from other jurisdictions than Mueller start coming out in the next year and it moves the fence sitters who were playing wait and see about what evidence came up about Trump's guilt to call for Trump's impeachment, then I could see a strategic impeachment come out of the House about a year from now. That would put all the Republicans running for re-election next year in a bind of having to choose between losing their primaries to someone from their right or lose the general election with the independents hating them for voting against removal.
 
No collusion? What the heck. I thought Trump would have been led away in shackles by now. And no obstruction? Hrmph. I guess no Crow for me this week. Let's see what the SDNY comes up with, but Mueller team was already stacked with Dems and Trump haters.

As always, I won't be reading and responses. I'll come back when Trump is impeached and eat all the crow. Or when Trump is reelected because Dems wont let Russia go.
I guess now we will be hearing about Trump’s corruption and obstruction of justice. Despite being exonerated for collusion, which is no surprise to those of us that do not listen to the MSM, they will say he some how obstructed an investigation into a made up crime. Give me a break. The transition from collusion is already starting. They are downplaying anybody that does not think Trump has committed a crime. I just hope people can reflect on all the accusations and phony news coverage the past couple of years, and conclude that the news media makes stuff up.

It never ceases to amaze me how a Tesla forum, made up of fans of a company that is victim to so much made up news, can somehow trust the same news media to report accurately on politics.
 
I watched almost two hours of CNN's coverage. They have been consistent in saying more is to come and their panelists covered from several angles the letter's ambiguities on collusion (Russian government only, or those close to it?) and thoroughly reminded us there is a line between a narrow definition of the term required for criminal conviction compared to what the House's mandate is. To buttress their case they quoted Nadler, Schiff, and others plus noting the House requires full disclosure to do its work adequately. Nonetheless, they gave due credit for Trump to herald no smoking gun response on collusion only. However the guy has extended whatever could not be found for likely conviction into a clear win and claimed clearance of obstruction of justice which was deliberately not given. Barr covered his ass well there, but it remains true he was appointed by Trump so his rectitude may be compromised.

At one point they got Giuliani and Sekelow on the phone who said of obstruction, no underlying crime, etc. That was shouted down by Jeff Toobin and some woman on the panel. Toobin also pointed out the probe was prompted by firing of Comey so we need to see what happened to that.

Trump's response was direct, half or more lies (as above) and threatened action against the other side prompting now that he is cleared, suggesting the whole probe was a hocked up thing by the usual suspects.

This guy's got to lose in 2020!!!!!
 
I watched almost two hours of CNN's coverage. They have been consistent in saying more is to come and their panelists covered from several angles the letter's ambiguities on collusion (Russian government only, or those close to it?) and thoroughly reminded us there is a line between a narrow definition of the term required for criminal conviction compared to what the House's mandate is. To buttress their case they quoted Nadler, Schiff, and others plus noting the House requires full disclosure to do its work adequately. Nonetheless, they gave due credit for Trump to herald no smoking gun response on collusion only. However the guy has extended whatever could not be found for likely conviction into a clear win and claimed clearance of obstruction of justice which was deliberately not given. Barr covered his ass well there, but it remains true he was appointed by Trump so his rectitude may be compromised.

At one point they got Giuliani and Sekelow on the phone who said of obstruction, no underlying crime, etc. That was shouted down by Jeff Toobin and some woman on the panel. Toobin also pointed out the probe was prompted by firing of Comey so we need to see what happened to that.

Trump's response was direct, half or more lies (as above) and threatened action against the other side prompting now that he is cleared, suggesting the whole probe was a hocked up thing by the usual suspects.

This guy's got to lose in 2020!!!!!

Of course it is not over and it is very easy for CNN to correctly say there is more to come. Anyone who has watched the current political situation for more than 3 minutes would come to the same conclusion. Until Trump is impeached or loses reelection, there is absolutely no end in sight because it will not be allowed to end. This is now nothing more than an opposition research project being run by the U.S. government, at the expense of the taxpayers for the benefit of one political party and being promoted by the MSM. Seriously, over two years of investigation is enough. Wouldn't it be great if our politicians chose to pursue their political careers by demonstrating how good they are at governing instead of how good they are at playing political games.
 
However Mueller was free to follow any lead where it led him and then pass off that information to other prosecutors. We've only seen one prosecutor take on a lead from Mueller thus far because it was in Mueller's interest that it move forward: Michael Cohen. There is almost certainly more in the pipeline.
None of those others will be about Russian collusion. That is the problem.

Instead of going after well known criminal activities of Trump, Hillary supporters wanted to go after Russia to say losing to someone of Trump's caliber wasn't Hillary's fault.

BTW, also can't be ruled out : Military industrial complex going after Russia to restart cold war and increase defense spending.
 
Frankly, Trump wasn't competent enough to really conspire with Russia. He got used by Putin -- but that's another matter. A whole bunch of Russian agents have been indicted by Mueller for conspiring to manipulate the election, but they're all hiding out in Russia.

Trump himself is being investigated for his OTHER crimes. The NY State one is the most cut-and-dried -- he ran a supposed "charity", the Trump Foundation, as his personal piggybank, using it to buy portraits of himself. (There's a 3-foot portrait, a 6-foot portrait, and a 9-foot portrait.) The Trump Foundation consisted mostly of money donated by other people who thought they were donating to a real charity.

I challenge any of the Trump supporters here: do you *really* think that it's an appropriate use of charity money, donated by individuals in good faith as charitable contributions, to buy portraits of Trump to hang in Trump buildings? Would you agree that that's illegal?

Wdolson's SO is right -- Mueller basically handed off a dozen criminal cases against Trump to other prosecutors. Very by-the-book given his limited remit.
 
I challenge any of the Trump supporters here: do you *really* think that it's an appropriate use of charity money, donated by individuals in good faith as charitable contributions, to buy portraits of Trump to hang in Trump buildings? Would you agree that that's illegal?

Definitely should be looked into since there's an ongoing investigation against Hilary for doing exactly the same thing with the Clinton foundation. Except her transgressions were on a far grander scale.
 
This is now nothing more than an opposition research project being run by the U.S. government, at the expense of the taxpayers for the benefit of one political party and being promoted by the MSM.

Possibly true going forward. But this is factual. The government probe started as a counter espionage investigation in part well before the 2016 election. As an opposition research enterprise, the so-called Steel dossier was initiated by a Republican political operative/donor?, though taken over later by a piece of the Hillary campaign. Frequent news sources report the espionage investigation is still on-going. (I can't confirm that, however. And we might never know.)

Edit: Is the Roger Stone indictment what is alluded to?
 
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Definitely should be looked into since there's an ongoing investigation against Hilary for doing exactly the same thing with the Clinton foundation. Except her transgressions were on a far grander scale.
Glad you think it should be looked into. There's nothing even remotely similar being investigated at the Clinton Foundation. (They're not accusing it of misusing money for personal purposes. They're "investigating" whether any "policy favors" were done in order to get money to be used for actual charitable purposes -- and there seems to be no evidence of any such thing, i.e. not true.)

Read the documents from the case against the Trump Foundation. It's already been DISSOLVED for the long list of direct misuses of money for personal purposes (the portraits are only the most egregiously narcissistic -- it appears that NONE of the money in the Trump Foundation was EVER used for charitable purposes), and the money which is left in the Foundation bank accounts has been taken by the state to use for charitable purposes, by court order. The state is now trying to get the stolen money back from Donald Trump and his children.

Signed checks from his fake "charity" to buy PORTRAITS OF HIMSELF. It's been looked into. It's been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. Now do you agree that this is a crime?
 
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Possibly true going forward. But this is factual. The government probe started as a counter espionage investigation in part well before the 2016 election. As an opposition research enterprise, the so-called Steel dossier was initiated by a Republican political operative/donor?, though taken over later by a piece of the Hillary campaign. Frequent news sources report the espionage investigation is still on-going. (I can't confirm that, however. And we might never know.)

FYI, Mueller proved that there was a Russian conspiracy to manipulate the US election, and indicted a whole bunch of Russians for it. That's now proven in court (and the Russians are hiding from justice in Russia). The evidence is overwhelming that Manafort was in on it, but Manafort got thrown in the slammer for massive tax evasion instead (like Al Capone).

Muller said that despite hundreds of meetings between Trump family members and the Russian conspirators, he did not find evidence that Trump was actually in on the conspiracy.

What this means is that Trump's a fool who was used by the Russian conspirators -- a useful idiot, a tool of Russian conspirators.

This is my conclusion: Trump's a pathetic two-bit grifter, buying paintings of himself with his bogus "charity". Putin was manipulating Trump (which is easy); of course Putin didn't trust Trump with the actual conspiracy plans.
 
As noted earlier here I'm curious about what Trump meant by now "the other side" should worry about what will happen. Not to presume this is an example, and one should avoid any conspiracy connotations given the judicial oversight involved plus, if the allegations are true, Avenatti clearly overstepped the boundaries. This.

Michael Avenatti charged with trying to extort Nike - CNNPolitics

Even if Avenatti is guilty as charged he is such a clever snake there may be some advantage for him to raise suspicion of Trump because of his statement and find a way to introduce in his defense more damaging material. I could go on by wondering if Avenatti refuses to deny he's running for president but that would be OT or worse, paranoid.:rolleyes:
 
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Glad you think it should be looked into. There's nothing even remotely similar being investigated at the Clinton Foundation. (They're not accusing it of misusing money for personal purposes. They're "investigating" whether any "policy favors" were done in order to get money to be used for actual charitable purposes -- and there seems to be no evidence of any such thing, i.e. not true.)

Not true at all. Clinton Foundation CFO Andrew Kessel is a whistle blower and is stating that Clinton's were using foundation money for personal expenses and were repeatedly warned to stop. That's why the investigation was recently re-opened. It looks pretty bad. Tax evasion and a slew of other charges. The renewed investigation has also uncovered more evidence of Hillary's pay to play scheme. This all happened at the end of last year and the investigation is ongoing. The "no evidence of any such thing" is old information. The Clinton's are actually being accused exactly what Trump was accused of and more.
 
Not true at all. Clinton Foundation CFO Andrew Kessel is a whistle blower and is stating that Clinton's were using foundation money for personal expenses and were repeatedly warned to stop. That's why the investigation was recently re-opened. It looks pretty bad. Tax evasion and a slew of other charges. The renewed investigation has also uncovered more evidence of Hillary's pay to play scheme. This all happened at the end of last year and the investigation is ongoing. The "no evidence of any such thing" is old information. The Clinton's are actually being accused exactly what Trump was accused of and more.
Link ?

When I search on Clinton Foundation & Andrew Kessel - I only get shadowy links. Is this what you are referring to "investigations" ?

Clinton Foundation CFO Andrew Kessel made the admissions to investigators from MDA Analytics LLC – a firm run by “accomplished ex-federal criminal investigators,” who have been probing the Clinton Foundation for some time.

I'd be very happy if both Clintons & Trump are sent to prison, where they belong. But as powerful people don't get sent to prison normally in US, this won't happen.
 
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Link ?

When I search on Clinton Foundation & Andrew Kessel - I only get shadowy links. Is this what you are referring to "investigations" ?



I'd be very happy if both Clintons & Trump are sent to prison, where they belong. But as powerful people don't get sent to prison normally in US, this won't happen.

C-Span is shadowy?

Hearing on Clinton Foundation | C-SPAN.org
 
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Not true at all. Clinton Foundation CFO Andrew Kessel is a whistle blower and is stating that Clinton's were using foundation money for personal expenses and were repeatedly warned to stop.
You're referring to fake news. Sorry.


Read the transcript, such as it was. That's a bunch of Republicans bloviating. Doesn't have any evidence of wrongdoing, certainly not of the sort of stuff Trump was doing. There isn't any mention of Kessel there, BTW.

As Gerry Connolly said (it's in the transcript): "If we're going to be looking at nonprofit foundations, but let's actually look at some that have outstanding allegations, including a pending criminal investigatoin against them, unlike the Clinton Administration. So let's look at this latest so-called set of allegations with respect to the Clinton Foundation. This next panel has two private individuals, both Republicans, who will explain how they submitted a complaint to the I.R.S. and the F.B.I. against the Clinton Foundation. They have already conceded that they are not whistleblowers. Instead they are would-be plaintiffs in a lawsuit seeking to make money. That's not a whistleblower. They also admit they have no firsthand knowledge of any wrongdoing. "

This is just a smear. These guys actually admitted that they had nothing.

By contrast, we have actual cancelled checks from the Trump Foundation buying portraits of Trump.

Frankly, it's sad to watch how many people have been bamboozled by the right-wing lie machine.
 
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FYI, Mueller proved that there was a Russian conspiracy to manipulate the US election, and indicted a whole bunch of Russians for it. That's now proven in court (and the Russians are hiding from justice in Russia). The evidence is overwhelming that Manafort was in on it, but Manafort got thrown in the slammer for massive tax evasion instead (like Al Capone).

Muller said that despite hundreds of meetings between Trump family members and the Russian conspirators, he did not find evidence that Trump was actually in on the conspiracy.

What this means is that Trump's a fool who was used by the Russian conspirators -- a useful idiot, a tool of Russian conspirators.

This is my conclusion: Trump's a pathetic two-bit grifter, buying paintings of himself with his bogus "charity". Putin was manipulating Trump (which is easy); of course Putin didn't trust Trump with the actual conspiracy plans.

My SO has pointed out that the level of "reasonable doubt" for a criminal conviction is 90% sure. Mueller couldn't come up with enough evidence to get to that 90% certainty level Trump was directly involved with the Russian government's efforts with the 2016 interference. It doesn't mean he isn't 80% sure.

Barr's memo points out that there was not enough evidence that there was coordination/conspiracy between Trump and the Trump campaign and the Russian government in the 2016 election. There were a number of Russians who talked to various people with the campaign. The Trump Tower meeting is one of these examples. But to make a case of the Russian government and Trump working in concert in the election, the DOJ needs to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the individuals identified were working for the Russian government, and that Donald Trump himself was directly involved.

It is almost certain that Trump did know what was going on, and it is certain that the Russian individuals involved were doing the bidding of the Russian government, but neither of those things can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. That's why the tax laws were rewritten in the 1920s and 30s to trap people for criminal activity and it's what brought down Al Capone (as you pointed out). It's easier to prove a tax fraud case than a criminal conspiracy case.

In any criminal case each link in the chain has to be proven and if one or more links can't be proven, the entire case falls apart. In a tax fraud case, all you have to prove is the person made the money and they didn't pay taxes on that money. Both are usually pretty easy to prove. Bank fraud cases are usually fairly easy to prove too. That's an area where Trump is very vulnerable. Various evidence has surfaced in recent weeks that Trump flat out lied about the values of his properties to both get loans and get insurance, both are crimes. If the media knows these things, prosecutors almost certainly know more than the media.

Mueller's main task was so see if there was proof that Donald Trump conspired with the Russian government in the 2016 election. Along the way he turned up evidence of a lot of other crimes, but since that wasn't his job, he passed that evidence on to other jurisdictions who are taking up those cases. Michael Cohen ended up getting indicted in part due to evidence dredged up in Mueller's work. Most of the rest of the cases haven't moved forward yet. A number of lawyers have been saying for months that Trump's biggest legal concerns should be the State of New York and the SDNY. Those jurisdictions have tons of evidence they will be moving on soon.

Mueller turned up definite evidence that there were Russian individuals who were conspiring with at least individuals on the Trump campaign and within the RNC. These are serious crimes, but were outside of Mueller's orders, so he did not indict for these crimes except where it was necessary to move his case forward (such as Maria Butina). The mountain of evidence he did gather was passed on to other jurisdictions and we will be hearing about those cases in the coming months.

I have not seen a single lawyer with any credibility who believes this is over. Not by a long shot. My SO showed me this article today:
Look at All the Weasel Words Bill Barr Used to Protect Trump

She thinks it's the best summary she's seen to date.
 
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