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The thing is, there aren't any "surgical strikes" to *do*. It's not like Iran's doing something which can be targeted. There's no goal other than invading.

I suppose the US could blow some random things in Iran up, "declare victory", and leave. That would achieve nothing (other than damaging the reputation of the US internationally) but would be relatively harmless. The US has done such silliness before, and so has France. Britain doesn't tend to engage in that sort of nonsense and neither does Russia or China.

----

The Houthis are a regional ethnic group movement in a Yemeni civil war. The US supports groups like that *all the time*, selling them weapons (gotta sell the weapons), is particularly known for supporting groups which use terrorist tactics. Calling the Houthi rebels "terrorists" is just a slur; they're actually actors in a Yemeni civil war which everyone outside Yemen should have stayed out of. There have been several Yemeni civil wars. We managed to stay out of the other Yemeni civil wars.

Iran probably sells the Houthi weapons (unproven) and definitely provides humanitarian aid (proven). The US government actively supports indiscriminate bombing of Yemeni civilians by Saudi planes (proven). Who's the terrorist group? Yep, in this case it's the US, and Congress has even recognized this and told Trump to stop supporting Saudi terrorism in Yemen. Of course he vetoed that bill because he can't stand being told what to do.

-----

North Korea is a dictatorship which has turned into a religious cult (the cult of "Juche" and Kim-family worship), and Trump really wishes he had the same position as Kim Jong-Un (as he's said). It's a pretty miserable place to live for almost everyone. Because they successfully developed nuclear weapons, the US will not touch them.

North Korea is of great interest to South Korea, and is an annoyance to China, but is of no geopolitical interest whatsoever to the US; it is unimportant. It is an official "enemy" of the US for idiotic and essentially historical reasons; in fact Kim Jong-Un is envious of the US and wants US consumer products and basketball stars, but wants to retain his position as "god-king". South Korea and North Korea have been actively talking about an official peace treaty because South Korea is afraid that the US is going to mess everything up by insane random hostility.

If there is one potential good outcome from Trump internationally, it would be that the rest of the world settles its own problems before the US lunatics interfere and make everything worse. Because the one thing nearly every side in war-torn areas agrees on is that they want the US *out*. This is true in Iraq, in Syria, in Afghanistan, in Yemen, and now even in South Korea.
 
I see you assume that since 2002, 17 years later, USA did nothing to improve that state of affairs. I also wonder why you didn't picked any more recent example (it is not like USA wargames ended in 2002). Maybe because they didn't have such spectacular case of fail?

They weren't publicized. That one wasn't supposed to be publicized either but the officer who was told "don't do that" proceeded to go public.

The result of the 2002 event was to change the rules of the war games to make sure nobody could ever try the effective tactics in the war games again. That's a recipe for not improving the state of affairs. It's an *attitude problem*, and there's absolutely no sign of fixing the attitude problem. But in a real war, the other side doesn't have to follow your rules.
 
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The end of the United States is actually quite likely. The divide between the "sane" and the "Republicans" keeps getting larger, but the "lunatic-controlled states" have a stranglehold on the Senate and have been using shenangigans to retain power. At some point powerful states like California will not tolerate it any more.

We already went through a Second Nullification Crisis, the states won, and nobody noticed. If the federal government doesn't get in line with what the majority of the people want, and soon, then the fate of the Soviet Union may come upon us. An illegal war with Iran against the will of the House of Representatives might do it.

For clarity, that's what I meant by "the end of the US"; the loss of authority of the federal government. All our cities and countryside would still be here and so would the state governments and probably a lot of ex-federal agencies.
 
The end of the United States is actually quite likely. The divide between the "sane" and the "Republicans" keeps getting larger, but the "lunatic-controlled states" have a stranglehold on the Senate and have been using shenangigans to retain power. At some point powerful states like California will not tolerate it any more.

We already went through a Second Nullification Crisis, the states won, and nobody noticed. If the federal government doesn't get in line with what the majority of the people want, and soon, then the fate of the Soviet Union may come upon us. An illegal war with Iran against the will of the House of Representatives might do it.

For clarity, that's what I meant by "the end of the US"; the loss of authority of the federal government. All our cities and countryside would still be here and so would the state governments and probably a lot of ex-federal agencies.

The growing divide you speak of is incredibly concerning. It has become evident to me that the advent of social media, in particular, has exacerbated the issue to the point that there is no room for complexity in discourse. Instead, it seems that ideological radicalism has become the status quo. I find it particularly challenging to navigate in this environment as the toxic combination of political polarization and an overly sensitized populace has made good faith debate about sociopolitical issues nearly impossible (divide et impera indeed).
 
I believe the election of Barack Obama is an exception to that. The decision of Johnson to resign, arguably.

In fact, I think this is perhaps mostly because most US wars didn't actually span an election season. Most of the Indian wars are exceptions, and so's the Moro Rebellion.

Low level wars most Americans have forgotten about aren't in the news and don't tend to influence politics much. Both GW Bush and Barack Obama left office while we were at war because they reached their constitutional limit. Bush's 2004 win was not completely because of the war, but it probably helped him a bit.

All the 1 term presidents who lost re-election were running in peace time. Though the US's attitude towards war in general is shifting and has definitely shifted from the post-WWII era "we're the police of the world" attitude.

At least he knows that. I think he also knows that war is bad for the hotel business.

If the Iranians are savvy, they'll offer Trump a Trump Hotel in Tehran, and that'll seal the deal.


His top priority is getting people to pay attention to him. Yes.

As malignant narcissists do.
It's worse than that. The UAE, who are mostly Sunni, and Pakistan, which is mostly Sunni, and Turkey and the Kurds, who are mostly Sunni, generally get along fairly well with Iran. But they're all *normal* Sunni.

Saudi Arabia is run by Wahhabbis, a Sunni cult which is considered heretical by the other Sunnis. They're very fragile and unpopular as a religious authority, so they want to whip up anti-Shia sentiment in order to try to legitimate themselves in the eyes of other Sunnis. The Wahhabbis are also iconoclasts who are hell-bent on destroying ancient shrines and archaeological sites related to the Prophet and his family -- this is really very unpopular among non-Wahhabbi Sunnis.

Iran doesn' t have any such agenda; Iran practices traditional Shia, which has decentralized religious authority (there are *lots* of imams and ayatollahs who have their own views) and so it isn't "religiously insecure" in the way the Saudi religious leadership is.

For background, Shia is the equivalent of Protestantism in governance; Sunni governance was the equivalent of the Roman Catholic Church -- until the last Caliph died and there was no consensus on a successor. The Saud family have basically been trying to act as Caliphs, but the rest of the Sunni world rejects that because the Saudis' religious leadership, the Wahhabbis, are heretical according to the traditional Sunni jurisprudence.

So you see how fragile the Saudi position is.

Back when I was at Boeing (late 80s and early 90s), there were a lot of Iranians who had found themselves stuck here when the Revolution happened and had to find jobs instead of completing their advanced degrees. One guy I worked with closely had been raised by a rabidly Muslim mother and had tried to be like her as he grew up, but had too many doubts.

As he began to doubt Islam, he started researching the history and found that Shia Islam was far more decentralized before WW I than it is now. When the British controlled Persia/Iran they tried to solidify their power by finding religious authorities who would speak in their favor and pretty much made the ayatollah position into the sort of position it is today.

The Islamic revolution in Iran is blow back from 60 years of British and then American interference in the country.

Amusing, delusional hyperbole.


Basically - such a nice weasel word. Do you deliberately conflate military campaign (that was successful) and subsequent occupation of country (and THIS was actual cluster***)?

Yes. There is an excellent book on how the occupation was botched by conservative ideologues Imperial Life in the emerald City:
https://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Lif...qid=1561159343&rnid=2941120011&s=books&sr=1-2

I've been studying military history my entire life and I knew the occupation had been botched, but this book was even a surprise to me. Against all odds after an invasion the Iraqis wanted peace and initially were very interested in cooperating with the US. If the US had behaved like it had in the post WW II occupations, or even the Balkan occupation, the occupation would have worked despite having way too few troops to conduct a proper occupation.

The rule of thump is 20 troops per 1000 population and the US had around 1/10 that, which is why the looting got so out of hand. The Iraqi military was very weak to begin with and Arabs don't tend to fight very hard for secular causes. That's a contributing factor why the Israelis have won against the odds in every invasion.

Most of the Iraqi army just went home, stashing most of their equipment where they could get it later. Most people knew that as soon as the occupation was over, the civil war was going to start. Iraq is stitched together from three very different groups who hate one another and with Saddam Hussein gone, war with each other was an almost certainty.

The US backed insurgence against the Taliban was highly successful too and would have wrapped up Afghanistan quickly if the Bush administration hadn't illegally diverted resources directed at the Afghanistan War to the build up for Iraq. According to Richard Clark the day after 9/11 the PNAC people were talking about how the attacks would give them permission to take out Iraq. Clark was actually directed to issue a memo stating that Iraq was behind 9/11 and he refused.

In the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks Congress gave the president a blank check to stop al Qaeda anywhere in the world and that's been used as an excuse ever since. That's why Pompeo was saying the other day that Iran is linked to al Qaeda so the US has an excuse under the authorization issued in 2002 to attack Iran. The statement is ludicrous. It would be like claiming the Vatican was allied with the Calvinists at the height of the Reformation.

I see you assume that since 2002, 17 years later, USA did nothing to improve that state of affairs. I also wonder why you didn't picked any more recent example (it is not like USA wargames ended in 2002). Maybe because they didn't have such spectacular case of fail?

It's one example of a history of slanted wargames. Back in the 70s in an exercise for the Cold War getting hot, the US was exercising the US doctrine at the time for moving a large US carrier force into the Arctic over the top of Norway and attacking the Russian base at Archangel (which was built into a large port during WW II). The officer in charge changed one parameter. He changed US carriers from impossible to sink to just very difficult to sink. The US Navy lost badly.

Another case of this was when the Japanese were running war games for the planned invasion of Midway island. One Japanese officer playing the Americans placed American carriers to the Northeast of the Japanese approach instead of remaining in Pearl Harbor where Yammamoto said they were supposed to be. The American side won a huge victory. Yammamoto told the officer playing the Americans to put the US carriers back at Pearl Harbor and ran the game again where the Japanese won.

Guess where Nimitz put the US carriers? Exactly where the Japanese officer playing the Americans had put them and it resulted in the Japanese losing 2/3 of their fleet carriers in one day.

If they're any good the enemy always does something the other side doesn't expect. The US is very strong in a straight up confrontation on the battlefield. This was demonstrated in the 1991 war in Kuwait and Iraq. The US tank forces wiped out the Iraqi tank forces in an afternoon with no losses.

But the stronger the front, the weaker the back. By the nature of their existence strong field armies are very poor at dealing with insurgency style warfare. Insurgencies are among the toughest type of warfare to counter, especially when the insurgents are fighting on their home turf. Since 1945 almost all the wars that involve western powers have been insurgencies the western country loses. The US is no exception.

I will agree with this, in sense that they will not be able to occupy country. They CAN win war, especially if it will be something like surgical strikes at nuclear installations, military bases etc. You do not need boots on ground or occupation for this kind of thing. This still would down their reputation another notch, though.


Activities like supporting Houthi in Yemen and other support for groups considered terrorists says otherwise. In other words, "peace-promoting country" Iran has no problem with participating in proxy wars. Your "peace-promoting country" is also inherently hostile to Israel. Makes great line for propaganda booklet, though.

Oh, one more thing. What is your opinion about North Korea? Remember, this country is hostile to USA.

I wouldn't call Iran peace promoting, but they have been carefully abiding by the terms of the nuclear treaty to stay friendly with the Europeans. There are stories in the US news now about the Iranians starting up their enrichment program again, but I'm very skeptical.

I saw a CNN report yesterday where a reporter went in a boat to one of the tankers that were damaged and he was talking about how it was done by limpet mines. He described damage that limpet mines can't really do (the explosion penetrated both hulls and into the cargo tank. And showed the damage to the ship. The crew had reported being hit by missiles and the damage is consistent with that from small missiles.

The only evidence of mines has been produced by the US.

As for Yemen, it's a tribal war at it's heart. The country has had several of them. The difference this time is the Saudis stuck their nose in the middle of it and if metastasized.

The thing is, there aren't any "surgical strikes" to *do*. It's not like Iran's doing something which can be targeted. There's no goal other than invading.

Since the Israeli attack on their nuclear plant many years ago, the Iranians have been building up their air defense capabilities and have one of the best air defense networks in the world. Any air strikes on Iran is going to be very costly.

I suppose the US could blow some random things in Iran up, "declare victory", and leave. That would achieve nothing (other than damaging the reputation of the US internationally) but would be relatively harmless. The US has done such silliness before, and so has France. Britain doesn't tend to engage in that sort of nonsense and neither does Russia or China.

----

Even Trump did this in Syria in 2017.

North Korea is a dictatorship which has turned into a religious cult (the cult of "Juche" and Kim-family worship), and Trump really wishes he had the same position as Kim Jong-Un (as he's said). It's a pretty miserable place to live for almost everyone. Because they successfully developed nuclear weapons, the US will not touch them.

North Korea is of great interest to South Korea, and is an annoyance to China, but is of no geopolitical interest whatsoever to the US; it is unimportant. It is an official "enemy" of the US for idiotic and essentially historical reasons; in fact Kim Jong-Un is envious of the US and wants US consumer products and basketball stars, but wants to retain his position as "god-king". South Korea and North Korea have been actively talking about an official peace treaty because South Korea is afraid that the US is going to mess everything up by insane random hostility.

If there is one potential good outcome from Trump internationally, it would be that the rest of the world settles its own problems before the US lunatics interfere and make everything worse. Because the one thing nearly every side in war-torn areas agrees on is that they want the US *out*. This is true in Iraq, in Syria, in Afghanistan, in Yemen, and now even in South Korea.

Ironically it's Trump's instability that probably brought the Koreans to the negotiating table. Lots of people call Kim Jong Un crazy, but it's just an act. He plays the crazy one to get things for North Korea. When faced with someone who really is mentally ill, he's suddenly acting very rational.

The growing divide you speak of is incredibly concerning. It has become evident to me that the advent of social media, in particular, has exacerbated the issue to the point that there is no room for complexity in discourse. Instead, it seems that ideological radicalism has become the status quo. I find it particularly challenging to navigate in this environment as the toxic combination of political polarization and an overly sensitized populace has made good faith debate about sociopolitical issues nearly impossible (divide et impera indeed).

It's possible the United States could break up into two countries. The book American Nations talks about the philosophical divide that has existed in what is now the United States since the colonial period. The two cultures that dominated in the early days were the Yankees in New England vs the Tidewater culture centered in Virginia and North Carolina. Tidewater faded as a power as the US expanded and the Deep South took up the mantle as the Yankee's antagonist.

The two cultures have very different attitudes about how to run a country. The Yankees are very egalitarian and want to create a utopia on Earth with lots of economic and social mobility.

Tidewater was settled by younger sons of the landed gentry and wanted to reproduce the manor system in the colonies. They reluctantly started importing slaves because there were not enough white peasants to go around, even with forced deportation of prisoners to the colonies. In Tidewater is was considered a noble thing to set your slaves free upon your death. Not everyone did, but there are some examples among the founding fathers.

The Deep South was a slave culture from the beginning. It started when sugar plantation owners in Barbados ran out of land to cultivate and came to the mainland in the Georgia colony. Georgia at the time was very small and had a small almost hippie colony that was quickly replaced by the slavers. The new colonists wanted to create a mass production agrarian system centered on slave labor. Their view of the world was one with a small cadre of white elites at top of the pecking order, another cadre of poor whites who were the slave supervisors and kept the administrative gears of society running, and then the slaves at the bottom.

The top two tiers were very military in their structure, officers and enlisted. The slaves were POWs from wars in Africa for the most part, so they fit into this structure too.

The Handmaid's Tale is placed in New England, but it fits better in the American South.

The Democrats go back to the first generation of political parties (ironically it is the real "old party") and it was started around the ideas of Jefferson who felt the states should have most of the rights and the federal government should be weak. Because Jefferson was Tidewater and not Deep South, he didn't want the hierarchies the Deep South wanted to see.

The Whigs formed out of the ideas of John Adams who was a Yankee and wanted Americans to be industrious, but classless. But also wanted a strong federal government that would unify the country. The Whigs faltered by the mid-19th century and were replaced by the Republicans who held similar values.

The fight has been the same for over 200 years now. Though a curious flip happened in the 1980s when Ronald Reagan won over the whites in the Depp South who had been Democrats from the beginning. Nixon started making inroads with his Southern Strategy, but Reagan completed the flip.

Reagan was so successful because he briefly unified both cultures under his flag as the Yankees had traditionally been Republican. But the Yankees took over the now hollowed out Democratic Party.

There are other cultures in the US. The Left Coast has always been allied with the Yankees, though they are more independent and value creativity more. New Amsterdam centered on New York City was making noises of leaving when the South succeeded in 1960, but changed their mind when rebels attacked Fort Sumpter. They have been allied with the Yankees ever since.

Appalachia is a different culture from the Deep South. They are culturally very conservative like the South, but aren't hierarchical and are very suspicious of anybody who seems to be wanting to "help" them because back in Scotland and Ireland where most of their ancestors came from, that usually ended up badly. Appalachia is also the most rabidly "American" of any US culture and that's why they mostly stayed Union in the Civil War despite slavery being legal in most Appalachian states at the time.

The interior West that stretches from a bit west of the Mississippi to the coastal strip in the western most states has been an interior resource colony for most of their existence and they are both dependent on and resentful of outside entities interfering in their environment. This area couldn't be settled without the railroads and couldn't be sustained with water projects and other big projects, but they are also resentful that they produce resources used somewhere else and they don't get much for it.

They sided with the Deep South in the 1980s, but they had sided strongly with the New Deal in the 30s too. They like the message of independence that the Deep South led coalition pushes to keep Appalachia and the Interior West on side, but they have ultimately been sold lies. Ironically some of the strongest social libertarian areas in the country are in the Left Coast.

The rest of the United States would be much better off if the Deep South were given their own country and left to their own devices, but it would be hell for many living there. Initially the Interior West and Appalachia would probably want to join them, but probably wouldn't like it. I don't think it would be fair on the innocents in the new country. And the Deep South would probably want to be belligerent with the rest of the US to keep people distracted from the dystopian hell hole they are creating. The rest of the US would probably become more like English speaking Canada fairly quickly.

If you like to ponder the things most people shy away from there is a good British radio show called Heresy.
BBC Radio 4 - Heresy
 
The end of the United States is actually quite likely. The divide between the "sane" and the "Republicans" keeps getting larger, but the "lunatic-controlled states" have a stranglehold on the Senate and have been using shenangigans to retain power. At some point powerful states like California will not tolerate it any more.

We already went through a Second Nullification Crisis, the states won, and nobody noticed. If the federal government doesn't get in line with what the majority of the people want, and soon, then the fate of the Soviet Union may come upon us. An illegal war with Iran against the will of the House of Representatives might do it.

For clarity, that's what I meant by "the end of the US"; the loss of authority of the federal government. All our cities and countryside would still be here and so would the state governments and probably a lot of ex-federal agencies.
If you didn't have a record with me of false statements followed by inability to face the facts, I might take more seriously these wild fantasies. It's never too late, Neroden my friend, to tighten up your wildly self-indulgent flights of fancy and resume your former role as an intellectual commentator. poc
 
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The end of the United States is actually quite likely.

You underestimate stability of USA. If USA fells apart due to inconciliable differences between two rightwing parties or rather two cultures, it will be long, drawn out, messy and painful process, like Roman Empire of late. It is possible that future historians will say about our times that this process already started by now.

For clarity, that's what I meant by "the end of the US"; the loss of authority of the federal government. All our cities and countryside would still be here and so would the state governments and probably a lot of ex-federal agencies.

Good that you clarified what you mean by that phrase. It was understood by me as something more drastic.

I suppose the US could blow some random things in Iran up, "declare victory", and leave. That would achieve nothing (other than damaging the reputation of the US internationally) but would be relatively harmless

It is most likely scenario of USA - Iran war in my opinion, yes.

The US supports groups like that *all the time*,

"But but other one does same thing too!!!111" argument does not impress me. Especially if you in same breath claim it is totally not same thing.

The result of the 2002 event was to change the rules of the war games to make sure nobody could ever try the effective tactics in the war games again.

Source, please. It this claim is true, that would indicate serious problem.

So far all you have for supporting your claim that USA military is "Potemkin village" is one incident in one wargame 17 years ago and deceptive conflating of military campaigns and military occupation in countries where USA waged war lately. This is extremely flimsy basis for such extraordinary claim.
 
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Low level wars most Americans have forgotten about aren't in the news and don't tend to influence politics much. Both GW Bush and Barack Obama left office while we were at war because they reached their constitutional limit. Bush's 2004 win was not completely because of the war, but it probably helped him a bit.

All the 1 term presidents who lost re-election were running in peace time. Though the US's attitude towards war in general is shifting and has definitely shifted from the post-WWII era "we're the police of the world" attitude.



As malignant narcissists do.


Back when I was at Boeing (late 80s and early 90s), there were a lot of Iranians who had found themselves stuck here when the Revolution happened and had to find jobs instead of completing their advanced degrees. One guy I worked with closely had been raised by a rabidly Muslim mother and had tried to be like her as he grew up, but had too many doubts.

As he began to doubt Islam, he started researching the history and found that Shia Islam was far more decentralized before WW I than it is now. When the British controlled Persia/Iran they tried to solidify their power by finding religious authorities who would speak in their favor and pretty much made the ayatollah position into the sort of position it is today.

The Islamic revolution in Iran is blow back from 60 years of British and then American interference in the country.



Yes. There is an excellent book on how the occupation was botched by conservative ideologues Imperial Life in the emerald City:
https://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Lif...qid=1561159343&rnid=2941120011&s=books&sr=1-2

I've been studying military history my entire life and I knew the occupation had been botched, but this book was even a surprise to me. Against all odds after an invasion the Iraqis wanted peace and initially were very interested in cooperating with the US. If the US had behaved like it had in the post WW II occupations, or even the Balkan occupation, the occupation would have worked despite having way too few troops to conduct a proper occupation.

The rule of thump is 20 troops per 1000 population and the US had around 1/10 that, which is why the looting got so out of hand. The Iraqi military was very weak to begin with and Arabs don't tend to fight very hard for secular causes. That's a contributing factor why the Israelis have won against the odds in every invasion.

Most of the Iraqi army just went home, stashing most of their equipment where they could get it later. Most people knew that as soon as the occupation was over, the civil war was going to start. Iraq is stitched together from three very different groups who hate one another and with Saddam Hussein gone, war with each other was an almost certainty.

The US backed insurgence against the Taliban was highly successful too and would have wrapped up Afghanistan quickly if the Bush administration hadn't illegally diverted resources directed at the Afghanistan War to the build up for Iraq. According to Richard Clark the day after 9/11 the PNAC people were talking about how the attacks would give them permission to take out Iraq. Clark was actually directed to issue a memo stating that Iraq was behind 9/11 and he refused.

In the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks Congress gave the president a blank check to stop al Qaeda anywhere in the world and that's been used as an excuse ever since. That's why Pompeo was saying the other day that Iran is linked to al Qaeda so the US has an excuse under the authorization issued in 2002 to attack Iran. The statement is ludicrous. It would be like claiming the Vatican was allied with the Calvinists at the height of the Reformation.



It's one example of a history of slanted wargames. Back in the 70s in an exercise for the Cold War getting hot, the US was exercising the US doctrine at the time for moving a large US carrier force into the Arctic over the top of Norway and attacking the Russian base at Archangel (which was built into a large port during WW II). The officer in charge changed one parameter. He changed US carriers from impossible to sink to just very difficult to sink. The US Navy lost badly.

Another case of this was when the Japanese were running war games for the planned invasion of Midway island. One Japanese officer playing the Americans placed American carriers to the Northeast of the Japanese approach instead of remaining in Pearl Harbor where Yammamoto said they were supposed to be. The American side won a huge victory. Yammamoto told the officer playing the Americans to put the US carriers back at Pearl Harbor and ran the game again where the Japanese won.

Guess where Nimitz put the US carriers? Exactly where the Japanese officer playing the Americans had put them and it resulted in the Japanese losing 2/3 of their fleet carriers in one day.

If they're any good the enemy always does something the other side doesn't expect. The US is very strong in a straight up confrontation on the battlefield. This was demonstrated in the 1991 war in Kuwait and Iraq. The US tank forces wiped out the Iraqi tank forces in an afternoon with no losses.

But the stronger the front, the weaker the back. By the nature of their existence strong field armies are very poor at dealing with insurgency style warfare. Insurgencies are among the toughest type of warfare to counter, especially when the insurgents are fighting on their home turf. Since 1945 almost all the wars that involve western powers have been insurgencies the western country loses. The US is no exception.



I wouldn't call Iran peace promoting, but they have been carefully abiding by the terms of the nuclear treaty to stay friendly with the Europeans. There are stories in the US news now about the Iranians starting up their enrichment program again, but I'm very skeptical.

I saw a CNN report yesterday where a reporter went in a boat to one of the tankers that were damaged and he was talking about how it was done by limpet mines. He described damage that limpet mines can't really do (the explosion penetrated both hulls and into the cargo tank. And showed the damage to the ship. The crew had reported being hit by missiles and the damage is consistent with that from small missiles.

The only evidence of mines has been produced by the US.

As for Yemen, it's a tribal war at it's heart. The country has had several of them. The difference this time is the Saudis stuck their nose in the middle of it and if metastasized.



Since the Israeli attack on their nuclear plant many years ago, the Iranians have been building up their air defense capabilities and have one of the best air defense networks in the world. Any air strikes on Iran is going to be very costly.



Even Trump did this in Syria in 2017.



Ironically it's Trump's instability that probably brought the Koreans to the negotiating table. Lots of people call Kim Jong Un crazy, but it's just an act. He plays the crazy one to get things for North Korea. When faced with someone who really is mentally ill, he's suddenly acting very rational.



It's possible the United States could break up into two countries. The book American Nations talks about the philosophical divide that has existed in what is now the United States since the colonial period. The two cultures that dominated in the early days were the Yankees in New England vs the Tidewater culture centered in Virginia and North Carolina. Tidewater faded as a power as the US expanded and the Deep South took up the mantle as the Yankee's antagonist.

The two cultures have very different attitudes about how to run a country. The Yankees are very egalitarian and want to create a utopia on Earth with lots of economic and social mobility.

Tidewater was settled by younger sons of the landed gentry and wanted to reproduce the manor system in the colonies. They reluctantly started importing slaves because there were not enough white peasants to go around, even with forced deportation of prisoners to the colonies. In Tidewater is was considered a noble thing to set your slaves free upon your death. Not everyone did, but there are some examples among the founding fathers.

The Deep South was a slave culture from the beginning. It started when sugar plantation owners in Barbados ran out of land to cultivate and came to the mainland in the Georgia colony. Georgia at the time was very small and had a small almost hippie colony that was quickly replaced by the slavers. The new colonists wanted to create a mass production agrarian system centered on slave labor. Their view of the world was one with a small cadre of white elites at top of the pecking order, another cadre of poor whites who were the slave supervisors and kept the administrative gears of society running, and then the slaves at the bottom.

The top two tiers were very military in their structure, officers and enlisted. The slaves were POWs from wars in Africa for the most part, so they fit into this structure too.

The Handmaid's Tale is placed in New England, but it fits better in the American South.

The Democrats go back to the first generation of political parties (ironically it is the real "old party") and it was started around the ideas of Jefferson who felt the states should have most of the rights and the federal government should be weak. Because Jefferson was Tidewater and not Deep South, he didn't want the hierarchies the Deep South wanted to see.

The Whigs formed out of the ideas of John Adams who was a Yankee and wanted Americans to be industrious, but classless. But also wanted a strong federal government that would unify the country. The Whigs faltered by the mid-19th century and were replaced by the Republicans who held similar values.

The fight has been the same for over 200 years now. Though a curious flip happened in the 1980s when Ronald Reagan won over the whites in the Depp South who had been Democrats from the beginning. Nixon started making inroads with his Southern Strategy, but Reagan completed the flip.

Reagan was so successful because he briefly unified both cultures under his flag as the Yankees had traditionally been Republican. But the Yankees took over the now hollowed out Democratic Party.

There are other cultures in the US. The Left Coast has always been allied with the Yankees, though they are more independent and value creativity more. New Amsterdam centered on New York City was making noises of leaving when the South succeeded in 1960, but changed their mind when rebels attacked Fort Sumpter. They have been allied with the Yankees ever since.

Appalachia is a different culture from the Deep South. They are culturally very conservative like the South, but aren't hierarchical and are very suspicious of anybody who seems to be wanting to "help" them because back in Scotland and Ireland where most of their ancestors came from, that usually ended up badly. Appalachia is also the most rabidly "American" of any US culture and that's why they mostly stayed Union in the Civil War despite slavery being legal in most Appalachian states at the time.

The interior West that stretches from a bit west of the Mississippi to the coastal strip in the western most states has been an interior resource colony for most of their existence and they are both dependent on and resentful of outside entities interfering in their environment. This area couldn't be settled without the railroads and couldn't be sustained with water projects and other big projects, but they are also resentful that they produce resources used somewhere else and they don't get much for it.

They sided with the Deep South in the 1980s, but they had sided strongly with the New Deal in the 30s too. They like the message of independence that the Deep South led coalition pushes to keep Appalachia and the Interior West on side, but they have ultimately been sold lies. Ironically some of the strongest social libertarian areas in the country are in the Left Coast.

The rest of the United States would be much better off if the Deep South were given their own country and left to their own devices, but it would be hell for many living there. Initially the Interior West and Appalachia would probably want to join them, but probably wouldn't like it. I don't think it would be fair on the innocents in the new country. And the Deep South would probably want to be belligerent with the rest of the US to keep people distracted from the dystopian hell hole they are creating. The rest of the US would probably become more like English speaking Canada fairly quickly.

If you like to ponder the things most people shy away from there is a good British radio show called Heresy.
BBC Radio 4 - Heresy

Wonderful post! If you have a book to suggest that traces the history of American political culture in a similar manner to your brief overview, I'd love to know.
 
You underestimate stability of USA.
Claim without evidence.

How many of you predicted that the Soviet Union would break up into constituent states? (I *knew* about the constituent states *and* their individual culture and history and I *still* didn't see it coming.) I can find very, very few people, including US experts on the USSR and Russian experts on the USSR, who saw that one coming. It was seen as a very stable, coherent, unified country. It sort of semi-broke-up during the Russian Revolution but was *promptly* reunited, within 10 years. Before that, Turkestan (Central Asia) was conquered starting in the 1840s, ending in 1895; Siberia earlier in the 1800s; Azerbaijan and Armenia before 1828. After that, it was practically a unitary state (the constitent state governments were appointed centrally from Moscow) until suddenly it fell apart.

The US only conquered and colonized California in 1848 and Texas in 1845. Our empire isn't significantly older. Russia colonized all the places I mentioned just as much as the US colonized the mainland US, though Russia didn't engage in nearly as much genocide as the US did.

The US is, in my *extremely well-supported* opinion, no more cohesive than the Russian Empire / USSR was. Probably substantially less so.

If USA fells apart due to inconciliable differences between two rightwing parties or rather two cultures, it will be long, drawn out, messy and painful process, like Roman Empire of late.

Perhaps.

Good that you clarified what you mean by that phrase. It was understood by me as something more drastic.

Yeah, I realized too late that I wasn't clear about what that phrase meant.
 
Chris Hedges - war correspondent for about 15 years - usual wikipedia shortcomings but a start:
Chris Hedges - Wikipedia
He'll tell you the Germans had no idea when the Berlin Wall would fall down. Told Hedges it would be year and it fell the next week.
Same for Yugoslavia, Hungary, Poland, Ukraine .... Sadly, IF the governments won't start to fix things, then civil unrest can rise up and the process is not pretty - a lot of citizens can get killed.

It is the exceptions when people don't get killed that we should study to understand why.
Both of the Roosevelts may have avoided civil war. Lincoln clearly didn't. And US still doesn't want to recognize we were about the last 1st world country to outlaw slavery - well after Europe.
Genocide of the American Indians we just avoid the topic, Canada slightly less.

Americans mostly don't know history and so we repeat war after war after was and hero worship warrior killing.
 
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The US only conquered and colonized California in 1848 and Texas in 1845. Our empire isn't significantly older. Russia colonized all the places I mentioned just as much as the US colonized the mainland US, though Russia didn't engage in nearly as much genocide as the US did.

That doesn't mean there was not horrendous loss of life for other reasons. I've seen estimates up to seven million lost their lives in the civil war which followed the revolutions of 1917. We participated as did other westerners. Don't know if the Japanese invasion in the East was bloody, too.

On the collapse of USSR there were real signs of decay as the top leadership degenerated into what the specialists called a "gerontocracy." What irks me is the simple explanation the country just couldn't keep up with the pressure of our military buildup of weapons in the Carter/Reagan years. (The CIA later admitted there was no more than a inflation adjustment upward in those years and after.}

Stalin, as Commissar of Nationalities, set the stage for conflict with deliberate structural tension between nationalities as he drew boundaries for the eventual Union constitution. He dealt with things by brute force with no effective backlash. Gorbachev was not so harsh. I also missed the clues, but there were some. I was shocked to read in our papers that a Soviet general lost his tank to a side in the Nagorno/Karabakh disturbances! For many years I taught books by Hélène Carrère d'Encausse. According to Wikipedia,

"Her most notable book may be 1978's L'empire éclaté: La révolte des nations en U.R.S.S (English version, Decline of an Empire: The Soviet Socialist Republics in Revolt) in which she predicted that the Soviet Union was destined to break up along the lines of its 15 constituent republics. Her suggestion was ridiculed at the time, but turned into reality when the USSR fell apart more than a decade later."

Hélène Carrère d'Encausse - Wikipedia

I taught the English version and modifications of several subsequent ones she published in later years. As I recall she blamed Gorbachev for ignoring Brezhnev's affirmative action policy of appointing titular nationalities to top posts in the Republics and in key Republics, the top local leader to the Politburo. The classic and most egregious case of a Russian, who promised to learn the language, in Kazakhstan just as the total of Kazakhs reached a plurality. Gorby did this because of his war on corruption, which was real, but unless he was to pull a Stalin....

Edit: It just struck me. Ethnic politics ended the Soviet Empire, ethnic politics elected Trump and his go-it-alone foreign policy making America great, is ending the U.S. empire (a version of nationalist politics worldwide). Also, what is dividing the Dems these days, the idea the black vote will diminish unless Biden is nominated?
 
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Also, what is dividing the Dems these days, the idea the black vote will diminish unless Biden is nominated?
First time I heard of this.

Its very simple. Status Quo (as Biden told rich donors "nothing will fundamentally change" if he is elected) vs Sanders "revolution".

Establishment is now pushing Warren to reduce Sanders votes.
 
First time I heard of this.

Its very simple. Status Quo (as Biden told rich donors "nothing will fundamentally change" if he is elected) vs Sanders "revolution".

Establishment is now pushing Warren to reduce Sanders votes.

No one says it the way I did. On CNN there's lots of discussion of Biden's strength in the Black community, the paradox of that support despite his committee's treatment of Anita Hill over nomination of Clarence Thomas, and I believe it was Nate Silver who said the black vote will determine the nomination, one way or the other. Polls apparently show older black voters favor Biden, while younger don't. Another way of saying it is generational divide effects black voters too.

I'm really opposed to Biden. He's just a weather vane, a follower.
 
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This week Joe Biden touted how well he got along with some of the worst segregationists in the Senate. He said he worked along with them on legislation. What was the legislation he worked with them on? Anti-busing legislation. He was one of them.

Joe Biden, the Anti-Busing Democrat

When Joe Biden Chose the Wrong Side of History

Once people start paying attention, and reminding the older black voters about his anti-civil rights work, he'll lose them.
 
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This week Joe Biden touted how well he got along with some of the worst segregationists in the Senate. He said he worked along with them on legislation. What was the legislation he worked with them on? Anti-busing legislation. He was one of them.

Joe Biden, the Anti-Busing Democrat

When Joe Biden Chose the Wrong Side of History

Once people start paying attention, and reminding the older black voters about his anti-civil rights work, he'll lose them.

There it is - in black and white (pun not intended)
upload_2019-6-23_13-27-41.png
 
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