MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[RVAC]

Theres just was a post in a Swedish facebook forum about the EPA range for model Y’s are adjusted down in USA, this might be a correction for starting to use the LG batteries that is slightly smaller.

You mean Model 3 LR not Model Y, right? Model 3 LR was recently re-introduced in the US and range went down from 358 EPA miles to 333. Makes sense that it's due to the LG pack.

My apologies for listing my post in the wrong thread. Just noticed this thread is focused on 2021's. Moderators, feel free to move if necessary.

To answer your question, I believe it's just the battery that comes from China.

That's what I thought but just wanted to confirm because they've recently started delivering Shanghai made cars in Canada.

 

[AAKEE]

Again, ideal remaining, not nominal should be used...

Look, I get that at these speeds there is minimal loss. I actually had a run the other day of 155km at low speeds on "curvy, humpy" roads. I started full and spent 21 kWh according to the BC and the ideal remaining delta was actually lower not higher 20.7kWh.

So I guess some regen wasn't accounted for or the BMS didn't calculate the full capacity in the beginning correctly. Anyways, if I do the run all the way to zero I will see the delta and in the winter it will be a different story.

I see you do these runs in Sweden, repeat that test in the winter time.

For me, there was no difference with ideal remaining. (I have of course looked at it before, but a few pictures is telling so I waited with the snswer until having these)

I drove back from work today, same 240km drive.
First 50km, about 100km/h due to the roads etc. After that I used the AP to drive 120km/h for > 150km until I catched up on traffic, and followed the last km’s at 90 km/h

The Nominal remaining, Expected remaining and Ideal remaining was at the same numbers for the whole 240km.
Sometimes the Ideal updated slightly before the two others but deviated not more than 0.1 up and down. For the absolute most of this drive, the three numbers was the same value.

Arriving at home:

Catching up traffic:

(I did not lookup any data today for used kWh vs nominal/expected/ideal remaining as I did show it before, and as I charge late the battery was not cold it probably behaved as in the earlier posts.)

 

[ran349]

For me, there was no difference with ideal remaining. (I have of course looked at it before, but a few pictures is telling so I waited with the snswer until having these)

I drove back from work today, same 240km drive.
First 50km, about 100km/h due to the roads etc. After that I used the AP to drive 120km/h for > 150km until I catched up on traffic, and followed the last km’s at 90 km/h

The Nominal remaining, Expected remaining and Ideal remaining was at the same numbers for the whole 240km.
Sometimes the Ideal updated slightly before the two others but deviated not more than 0.1 up and down. For the absolute most of this drive, the three numbers was the same value.

Arriving at home:
View attachment 944453

Catching up traffic:
View attachment 944454

(I did not lookup any data today for used kWh vs nominal/expected/ideal remaining as I did show it before, and as I charge late the battery was not cold it probably behaved as in the earlier posts.)

You have a good set up there where you can see the car SOC and SMT values at the same time.
My car also never shows much more than 0.1-0.2 kWh difference between the 3 values(ideal, nominal, and expected remaining), but I have seen several cases on this forum where there has been a much bigger difference.

 

[Ni Ph]

I’m looking tomorrow at UK MYLR mic 2022 (18 Mar delivery date, Mileage 22,300 miles)

Owner stated that he has supercharged once every two months and generally charges to 80%

Not sure about the battery temps when the following readings were taken (so I have asked him to charge to 100% and send me the figures)

I got him to send me the energy consumption screen 5mile figures

Av Wh/mile is 298
Range 181 miles
Battery percentage is 73

That equates to 73.89kwh

Did this car have LG 75kWh ? Or 78kWh? Or a some other capacity

The vin is LRWYHCEK3NC262###

Depending on battery nominal am I looking at 5% degredation or 1.1%

Is this expected degredation and normal or its high and it should walk away?

 

[theothertom]

Av Wh/mile is 298
Range 181 miles

Wh/mile depends on your driving style, temp, etc. Range is an estimate based on your driving style. I can make my Wh/mile and range say almost anything I want.

Did this car have LG 75kWh ?

yes

Depending on battery nominal am I looking at 5% degredation

10% is normal the first year, it settles down after that.

 

[Ni Ph]

Wh/mile depends on your driving style, temp, etc. Range is an estimate based on your driving style. I can make my Wh/mile and range say almost anything I want.


yes


10% is normal the first year, it settles down after that.

I thought all UK MYLR were LG M50 Y5LD (78.8kWh) , but the VIN number is early for UK. Deliveries started in Feb 2022. So you think this is a M48 Y5CD (75kWh). I have asked for a photo of Registration Document and that has Y5CD/Y4LD code.

 

[clerks]

Wh/mile depends on your driving style, temp, etc. Range is an estimate based on your driving style. I can make my Wh/mile and range say almost anything I want.


yes


10% is normal the first year, it settles down after that.

10 percent seems high to me and not normal. Do you have a source for that? Genuinely interested.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I’m looking tomorrow at UK MYLR mic 2022 (18 Mar delivery date, Mileage 22,300 miles)

Owner stated that he has supercharged once every two months and generally charges to 80%

Not sure about the battery temps when the following readings were taken (so I have asked him to charge to 100% and send me the figures)

I got him to send me the energy consumption screen 5mile figures

Av Wh/mile is 298
Range 181 miles
Battery percentage is 73

That equates to 73.89kwh

Did this car have LG 75kWh ? Or 78kWh? Or a some other capacity

The vin is LRWYHCEK3NC262###

Depending on battery nominal am I looking at 5% degredation or 1.1%

Is this expected degredation and normal or its high and it should walk away?

All UK MY LR have had the BT43 which is the LG Chem M50 79kWh battery with 2170 NMC cells, coded 5L

Doing it the way you've done it on mine, I get 76kwh, and my vin is 261xxx

Couple of things to say, if they had Instantious and not average ticked on the energy screen, then forget any numbers being provided being accurate. I had over 100kwh doing it that way before I changed it

BMS could be out of calibration, its relatively easy but takes time to improve that. There are posts on TMC on the subject and plenty of guides on the net. Similar for Cell balancing. If its out, you can get 10+ miles indicated range back which equates to 2-3kwh, add that to your 73.89kwh and you're above my car. Trouble is, you've no idea to know if thats the case. But, if they always plug in as soon as they get home and charge to 80%+, and never let the car sit at lower states of charge, it can happen.

 

[AAKEE]

I’m looking tomorrow at UK MYLR mic 2022 (18 Mar delivery date, Mileage 22,300 miles)

Owner stated that he has supercharged once every two months and generally charges to 80%

Not sure about the battery temps when the following readings were taken (so I have asked him to charge to 100% and send me the figures)

I got him to send me the energy consumption screen 5mile figures

Av Wh/mile is 298
Range 181 miles
Battery percentage is 73

That equates to 73.89kwh

Did this car have LG 75kWh ? Or 78kWh? Or a some other capacity

The vin is LRWYHCEK3NC262###

Depending on battery nominal am I looking at 5% degredation or 1.1%

Is this expected degredation and normal or its high and it should walk away?

78.8 kWh on ‘22 and on.
2021 had 74.5kWh.

Cell temp doesnt matter for the energy screen calc.

6.2% degradation and this is normal as the most cars use 80% daily SOC or so.
(About 4.5% calendar aging the first year gives about 6% after two years).

My collegues/friends that have this battery has very low degradation when they have used the low SOC stategy(60% or below as daily for this battery).
Very low as in 0.8kWh after >1year and 40K km.

 

[clerks]

78.8 kWh on ‘22 and on.
2021 had 74.5kWh.

Cell temp doesnt matter for the energy screen calc.

6.2% degradation and this is normal as the most cars use 80% daily SOC or so.
(About 4.5% calendar aging the first year gives about 6% after two years).

My collegues/friends that have this battery has very low degradation when they have used the low SOC stategy(60% or below as daily for this battery).
Very low as in 0.8kWh after >1year and 40K km.

Seems more correct and certainly not normal to get 10 percent in year 1.

 

[AAKEE]

Seems more correct and certainly not normal to get 10 percent in year 1.

Yes.
Degradation is predictable and not run by coincidence.
Calendar aging is the main part of the total degradation.
Can be calculated by Knowing Time /Temp /SOC.
5% the first year is normal in a medium warm climate.

 

[JzCastle]

Yes.
Degradation is predictable and not run by coincidence.
Calendar aging is the main part of the total degradation.
Can be calculated by Knowing Time /Temp /SOC.
5% the first year is normal in a medium warm climate.

I agree with this one, also based on own experience with three different Tesla's. However, when I share this picture, the argument I almost always get is that "well, I am not keeping my car in +25C all the time so it does not matter / the degradation is not so much". I get it here in Finland where the yearly average temperature is around +4C (ranging from +34C to -37C). But it would nice to get / see a study where the storage temperature would be lower...

 

[AAKEE]

I agree with this one, also based on own experience with three different Tesla's. However, when I share this picture, the argument I almost always get is that "well, I am not keeping my car in +25C all the time so it does not matter / the degradation is not so much". I get it here in Finland where the yearly average temperature is around +4C (ranging from +34C to -37C). But it would nice to get / see a study where the storage temperature would be lower...

I live in northern Sweden, close to the artic circle. Annual avg is +2C.

I have logs for average temp. Both Tesla cars have had 13.X C average cell temp.
The logs also show the ambient temp. I would say that the cell temp averages about 5C higher than the ambient.
As it seems, parking in hot sun increases the delta to >5C.
(The battery heats from charging and driving and this causes the battery to be warmer than the ambient).

There is information here from people that also logs the cell temp and in an average climate the annual cell temp is somewhere 20-25C.

There is a lot of data for calendar aging (and also cyclic aging) at different temperatures.
Cell temp 10C seem to reduce calendar aging with 25-33%.

18 month tests with Panasonic NCA.

At -20C the calendar aging rate is close to 0.

Another including 10C

I actually did sum up a lot of research data and put the sum of it into formulas making is possible to predict the degradation at a certain age / miles for Teslas with NCA chemistry. It works quite nice, the hardest thing to assume is the average cell temp.
(Despite how strange I find this, most people appearently doesnt log this )

 

[AAKEE]

By any chance connected to the R Symons with a lot of good videos on YT?

If so, thanks for these!

 

[eivissa]

My collegues/friends that have this battery has very low degradation when they have used the low SOC stategy(60% or below as daily for this battery).
Very low as in 0.8kWh after >1year and 40K km.

All my data suggests that the gross 80.5kWh are more or less accurate.

Net highest ever recorded was 79.5kWh, so the top 1kWh is unusable buffer that gets used up within the first year.

That's why we see the capacity go up initially during calibration and then it goes up and down around 79kWh in the first year and only then it starts to drop.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

By any chance connected to the R Symons with a lot of good videos on YT?

If so, thanks for these!

Me? No, although it’s been asked before. Ironically I actually don’t like his videos. Unfortunately he often gets things wrong, he actually did a whole video related to this topic, a long video on the LR model 3 batteries thinking they’d changed only to be told he was comparing 2 cars with the same battery, he hadn’t a clue!

 

[AAKEE]

All my data suggests that the gross 80.5kWh are more or less accurate.

Net highest ever recorded was 79.5kWh, so the top 1kWh is unusable buffer that gets used up within the first year.

For what I’ve seen they charge to 4.20V (a.k.a 4.19X V at 100%, so there shouldn’t be any top buffer?

The packs I saw that started low continued to charge as the NFP /SOC showed 100% but that’s merely a question of the BMS not being calibrated I guess. Voltage wise the charge curve did look just as usual.

My Plaid BMS started low on the capacity (95.7kWh after driving 1000km home), it took a month (or slightly over) for the BMS to acclimatize itself.
At the first longer drive (to my HEMS base), with the ODO starting around 1000km I checked how many kWh that was delivered and also the SOC after brief sleep bith before and after the drive. The capacity, counted by delivered energy / delta true SOC was 98.3kWh, but the BMS insisted on < 96kWh.
After ~ 5-6weeks the BMS settled at 98.4kWh.
My takeaway from this was that the BMS started low (preset low value from manufacturing?) and slowly adjusted to the measured value.

For the LG 78.8 I have seen it start low abd increase but I only have a few own points (checking axfew other’s) and also posts with SMT readings. So Im not sure but I would guess the LG battery starts low for the same reason?
Another possibility would be the LG cells not being cycled in the manufacturing process to the point where they reach the maximum capacity?

 

[Robbo126]

Hello everyone. Recently bought a 2021 Model 3 LR (first registered in the UK in December 2020), and loving it (first Tesla)!

From the VIN, I can tell the car was built in Fremont, USA. My V5C confirms the varient is the E5D. I believe this means I've got a LG battery pack (not Panasonic).

Car has done 46,500 miles / 75,000km.

Based on Tessie and the battery capacity estimates using the Energy screen method has my battery around 71.5 to 72 kWh.

From reading, it seems like the LG battery had a nominal battery capacity new of 74.5 to 75 kWh. However, Tessie automatically added 77.8 kWh for new nominal battery based on fleet averages (this seems to be based on the Q4 2020/ Q1 2021 Panasonic battery and not the LG one?).

If the nominal battery new was up to 75 kWh (and 72 kWh usable) would suggest a very low level of battery degradation over move than 3 calendar years and plenty of miles/KMs.

Was the LG / E5D battery actually 74.5 kWh nominal (when new) or was it in reality higher than this, hence the seemingly low battery degradation on my car (based on my limited early days)?

The car also shows 325-327 miles range at 100% charge, which I also believe suggests low degradation.

 

[eivissa]

confirms the varient is the E5D. I believe this means I've got a LG battery pack

Yes indeed! LG 5C M48

From reading, it seems like the LG battery had a nominal battery capacity new of 74.5 to 75 kWh

The highest logged value was 75,9kWh, but for the claimed range of 580km ist needs around 75,5kWh.

The car also shows 325-327 miles range at 100% charge, which I also believe suggests low degradation.

The constant is 137Wh/km so you are at around 5%. This is very good!

Here you can compare with others and also add your data via the survey link on the top of dashboard:

Tesla - Battery State of Health

Dashboard ©,<a href="mailto:[email protected]">eivissa</a>,<a href="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScTmpkCvDiYezgy7aacK_s5UMXICnDCWX0P6qgC6R-yGywPzQ/viewform">Survey</a> Last Update,22.04.2024 22:48:25 Row Counter,1469 Minimum Odometer,30000 km,160% Minimum Age,24 Months,160% ...

docs.google.com

 

[Robbo126]

Yes indeed! LG 5C M48

The highest logged value was 75,9kWh, but for the claimed range of 580km ist needs around 75,5kWh.

The constant is 137Wh/km so you are at around 5%. This is very good!

Here you can compare with others and also add your data via the survey link on the top of dashboard:

Tesla - Battery State of Health

Dashboard ©,<a href="mailto:[email protected]">eivissa</a>,<a href="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScTmpkCvDiYezgy7aacK_s5UMXICnDCWX0P6qgC6R-yGywPzQ/viewform">Survey</a> Last Update,22.04.2024 22:48:25 Row Counter,1469 Minimum Odometer,30000 km,160% Minimum Age,24 Months,160% ...

docs.google.com

Thanks eivissa! I really appreciate your response as it's hard to know "what's what" when you're new to Tesla!

I've submitted some early data on the spreadsheet - very interesting stuff!

Will try and do more in the future.