MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[AlanSubie4Life]

I found a European with a 2021 Performance on Reddit. I tried to coach him as well as you have with some of us, but he didn’t follow my guidelines as well as I would have liked. But here is his results with 54 % SoC

View attachment 616294

Impossible to interpret. But, if he means the charging screen projects 253km with recent efficiency of 172Wh/km, and at that point his battery gauge shows 267rkm left, at 54% SoC:

253km*172Wh/km/267rkm = 163Wh/rkm (262Wh/rmi)

And that would be (very roughly since extrapolation is from 54%): 163Wh/rkm*267rkm/0.54 = 81kWh (80.6kWh)

Max range right now with that constant seems to be: 489rkm - 499rkm (304rmi-310rmi)

Seems about right. But it's basically impossible to say from this data given the uncertainty. ~260Wh/rmi was the 2020 vehicle so this seems roughly in the ballpark of what we would expect.

I guess I expect more like 80kWh with a max range of 315rmi, for a constant of 254Wh/rmi (158Wh/rkm) - once the range is settled to the correct 315rmi promised value that is.

If these numbers are close it definitely seems a constant adjustment is in the works. We'll have to wait for a good data capture from a Performance.

 

[EV Promoter]

(The error from that calculation would go from 0 at 100%, to maximum, with error equal to buffer size, at 0%+ (+ means limit approach from right).)

That's it.
I'm asking because i did an excel little formula (a third degree pollynomial regression) to have the curve of real range from 100% to 10-5-0% vs consumption, eliminating the kms contained in the hidden buffer below 0%, taking the buffer as an unused reserve for emergencies.

Assuming no degradation and centering on my observed 100% charge 534 km x 0,955 = 510 kms @ 139 Wh/km and 71 kWh 100% to 0%.
Correct?

 

[EV Promoter]

Impossible to interpret.
If these numbers are close it definitely seems a constant adjustment is in the works. We'll have to wait for a good data capture from a Performance.

For your information, just in case you missed it: in Germany, and i guess all over EU as it seems, also for the 2021 Performance is arriving a lottery of the 2 batteries called 77 and 82 kWh. Take in account for future analysis.

Here a voluntary list of VINs and the 2 (actually 3) type of batteries and the car model (at the extreme side of the list).

Übersicht 2021 LR / P Batteriekapazität Fahrzeugschein

Tesla will loose her reputation on it.

 

[TimothyHW3]

found a European with a 2021 Performance

267 @54% is 495km at 100%. This is a 2020 P...Ask him to show you pictures of the car...

 

[TimothyHW3]

2021 Performance is arriving a lottery of the 2 batteries called 77 and 82 kWh. Take in account for future analysis.

No, this was debunked, at least for the P. It seems the KBA screwed the numbers and there are no LG in the Performance, yet... At least on papers the 3Ps have the same battery

As stated before there seem to be 3 batteries.
1)LG one(the one you have) very poor battery, low capacity (4kWh lower than Panasonic), charges 10 minutes slower to 80%
2) Old Panasonic branded as 79kWh(nominal full 77.8 + brick protection) good batteries.

3) Unseen and untested 82 batteries on the Ps, from Panasonic.
All E3D have Panasonic batteries (even the ones that say 77, wrong database number), all E5D have LG -your car

 

[MrHopsing]

For your information, just in case you missed it: in Germany, and i guess all over EU as it seems, also for the 2021 Performance is arriving a lottery of the 2 batteries called 77 and 82 kWh. Take in account for future analysis.

Here a voluntary list of VINs and the 2 (actually 3) type of batteries and the car model (at the extreme side of the list).

Übersicht 2021 LR / P Batteriekapazität Fahrzeugschein

Tesla will loose her reputation on it.

According to the thread, it seems the Performance is wrongly registered and all should be 82 kWh. In the past day a lot of people called up the registration office and got told that it was indeed supposed to be 82 kWh:

The error was also confirmed to me and I have already received a new vehicle registration with the entry 82 kWh.

So now it's 100 percent safe. Just spoke to the admission office. The new Panasonic 82 KWh battery is definitely installed in the Performance M3 E3D. I get a new vehicle registration with the correct information.

 

[tintinfish]

No, this was debunked, at least for the P. It seems the KBA screwed the numbers and there are no LG in the Performance, yet... At least on papers the 3Ps have the same battery

As stated before there seem to be 3 batteries.
1)LG one(the one you have) very poor battery, low capacity (4kWh lower than Panasonic), charges 10 minutes slower to 80%
2) Old Panasonic branded as 79kWh(nominal full 77.8 + brick protection) good batteries.

3) Unseen and untested 82 batteries on the Ps, from Panasonic.
All E3D have Panasonic batteries (even the ones that say 77, wrong database number), all E5D have LG -your car

Sorry haven't been following this thread. Is LG battery in the 2021 LR? My 2021 LR seems to charge slower than older LRs, some others have this issue as well.

 

[EV Promoter]

1)LG one(the one you have) very poor battery, low capacity (4kWh lower than Panasonic), charges 10 minutes slower to 80%

Even slower, according to tests. I wanted be sure, and fortunately in my country the law (and Tesla contract) allows the Right to refuse the car for 14 working days without any explanation or reason, if the buy is is online or by phone, and have all the money back.

Which me and other friends/people we are going to do shortly. Problem solved.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'm asking because i did an excel little formula (a third degree pollynomial regression) to have the curve of real range from 100% to 10-5-0% vs consumption, eliminating the kms contained in the hidden buffer below 0%, taking the buffer as an unused reserve for emergencies.

I don't think you need to do any curve fits.

Assuming you're at or below the degradation threshold, and not above (slightly different things happen above, but after a few months/a year, you'll be below the threshold so it doesn't matter), currently, it works out to:

RemainingkWh = 0.045*FullkWh + 0.955*ChargeConst*RemainingRatedRange
= 0.045*MaxRatedRange*ChargeConst + 0.955*ChargeConst*RemainingRatedRange
= ChargeConst * (0.045*MaxRatedRange + 0.955*RemainingRatedRange)
= ChargeConst*MaxRatedRange * (0.045 + 0.955*DisplayedSoC%)
= FullkWh* (0.045 + 0.955*DisplayedSoC%)

(Also assumes you haven't already gone below 0% displayed SoC, of course.)

Or whatever. There are a lot of equivalent ways to think about it. That buffer is always 4.5% of what your full capacity is (which changes).

Assuming no degradation and centering on my observed 100% charge 534 km x 0,955 = 510 kms @ 139 Wh/km and 71 kWh 100% to 0%.
Correct?

Yeah, that's what you'd have to do: or alternatively, look at it as 534km @ ~133Wh/km. (And that's roughly what you'll see if you look at and compare to the trip meter - each rated km contains about 133Wh for you, right now...you'll likely find the trip meter reads about 1% low, though...so more like 131-132Wh per rated km per the trip meter)

For your information, just in case you missed it: in Germany, and i guess all over EU as it seems, also for the 2021 Performance is arriving a lottery of the 2 batteries called 77 and 82 kWh. Take in account for future analysis.

Yeah, we just need the energy screens. I don't pay much attention to what the documentation says. Worth noting though that in the past (2020 and earlier) batteries have contained 79.5kWh per EPA, have shown up in SMT at ~78kWh max when new, with a degradation threshold of about 77.6kWh.

The energy screen will tell us the degradation threshold for the Performance. Tesla's in-house EPA test says battery is around 80.8kWh.

So I expect something like:

81kWh per EPA, showing up in SMT with ~80kWh max, and with a degradation threshold of maybe 79.5kWh. But the (highly questionable) data you provided from the untrainable Reddit user suggests degradation threshold is closer to 80-80.5kWh. We'll see. The datapoint is not reliable, so we're guessing. We just need a better datapoint, but your provided datapoint is a start, perhaps.

495km at 100%. This is a 2020 P

The 2020 20" P had maximum rated range of 299 rated miles, 481km, at 100%. FYI.

 

[tintinfish]

Bjorn's video shows 70 kWh usable:

That is 3 kWh less than the current LR, ~12 less miles. Even with a heat pump, I am not sure how they are able to advertise the 353-mile range?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Bjorn's video shows 70 kWh usable:

That is 3 kWh less than the current LR, ~12 less miles. Even with a heat pump, I am not sure how they are able to advertise the 353-mile range?

You'd expect ~70kWh from the ~74kWh battery, as discussed here. So that lines up. We're going to find out what happens. We should revisit all of this in a few weeks after the next software update. It is interesting what they're doing in Europe. In the US the cars have the normal 77.6kWh (or more) battery size (74kWh "usable" when new). The constant isn't "right" yet, so they display 347 miles max. But they'll probably update that soon to 353 miles (no more energy, just more miles).

I would expect an update in Europe too, but no idea whether the energy gap between the different LG and Panasonic battery packs will remain. If I had to bet, I would guess the energy gap will disappear, or at least be reduced. But it is quite uncertain. The constants will almost certainly get updated too (to ~136.5Wh/rkm) since they match the US 139Wh/rkm right now.

353 miles just comes from the formula:

Rated Range = (0.55*UDDS+0.45*HWY)*scalar

The scalar is 0.746 (used to be about 0.7) because the car does well with the heat pump in SC03 and FTP 20F.

 

[TimothyHW3]

LG battery in the 2021 LR?

In *some* 2021 European ones from Fremont, not all. Mostly the ones build in October. Not sure about US. So far the only US delivered LR quoted here seemed to have the Panasonic battery.

Charging slower - that really depends on the conditions. You can make a Panasonic battery to charge with 50kW on a v3 Supercharger if you go with high SOC % and cold battery.
To compare yourself to other cars you have to have exact same conditions - same cell temperature, same stall, same SOC.
Otherwise you can't compare two charging sessions...

 

[TimothyHW3]

Which me and other friends/people we are going to do shortly. Problem solved

They will put you in a one year ban of buying another Model 3 if you return it.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I wanted be sure, and fortunately in my country the law (and Tesla contract) allows the Right to refuse the car for 14 working days without any explanation or reason, if the buy is is online or by phone, and have all the money back.

If you're not happy with the car you should return it if you can, even if it prevents you from getting another one for a year.

That being said, I still think there's a decent chance they'll align these batteries. I am not trying to give you false hope, or convince you it's going to be ok and not return the car. I only say it because it's just super weird to randomly put batteries with such different capacities into a vehicle of the same trim.
For all I know the batteries may be capable of the same amount of energy storage. Might be just a software lock.

Another way to look at it is that maybe the LGs will degrade less. My car has 71kWh of capacity after two years, 20k miles. Just the way things go.

In the end you have to do what makes you feel most comfortable. With a 14-day window you don't have time to wait and see if you are dissatisfied with the vehicle.

One thing I am super confused about still is what range people have been promised in Europe and why it's ok to deliver vehicles far short of that. In the US the promise has been 353 rated miles, and Tesla will make the adjustments (not to energy!) to make that happen - because they always do. In Europe 580km is promised, but I don't know what is the history in Europe of displayed range matching the promised range from WLTP, etc. But you're not even close to that (partially because of an energy difference), so it seems strange.

They will put you in a one year ban of buying another Model 3 if you return it.

Yes, probably.

 

[EV Promoter]

@AlanSubie4Life I have few days to decide about the return, i'm thinking about, my main concern is not less space for degradation, because i don't need to go down to extreme low charges, nor the slower charging (in a reasonable range). My concern is the loss of value reselling, which will be shorter than my typical 7-8 years, in the EV case.

Here the charging curve on V3 tested in Germany few days ago (winter then), credits to TTforum.de, i can't find the precise forum post:

I've just checked with a friend with a E3D (the Eu code that we can say by now associated with Panasonics), and i can tell you that Panasonic 2021 appears as well been castrated in charging speed, but more testing is needed to ascertain it. So, probably going to the Panasonic will not make a huge difference.

Yes Alan, it's a lottery organized because Giganevada had reduced capacity due to the september upgrade of the lines and Tesla resorted, to push out more cars, to the totally unfair and bandit attitude to compensate with Frankenstein cars with the LG batteries fitted since springtime in MIC LR made in Shangai and, as you see in the video, fitting some car with the old headlights and some with the new lenticular.

As already demonstrated in the past, Tesla does'nt refrain from unfairiness toward customers if they can have some advantage. Their monopoly will eventually be breaked and i'll be happy to be no longer their customer, says, in 4 years for my next car. Or just after the return if they don't want me again as customer, i will not wait the "punishement" year, not only ideologically, but also because is their total fault.

Anyway, i'm impressed by the various tests, including Bjorn Nyland one, about the efficiency of that car, including my usage, the jump ahead from the 2020 is noticeable, not a fake or small thing.

And i can add the repeated test i've personally did on vampire drain, having the distance in km on the app rather than the charge in %, a lot more sensitive: in 24 hour, at about 60% charge, the range of 321 km shown did'nt moved of a feather, that is 0,xxxx% vampire drain.

Update is 2020.44.25

 

[EV Promoter]

For who missed the complete article, works perfectly on Google translate, this is the direct test & comparison Of a MIC LR with LG Chem and a 2019 US Panasonic imported:

惊人的 234kW 特斯拉 Model 3 第三代超充桩充电实测-有车以后

Congratulations Tesla, for the Frankstein car you sold me, at quite high price, something never heard in such a terms in the automotive, someone in Tesla probably misunderstood the meaning of "innovation", those are called "unfair commercial practice".

In conclusion, my suggestion to US and EU folk: Ask the guarantee of a Panasonic battery before paying the order.

And has been just announced that the MIC Model Y will be exported to EU and a contract for the MIC Model Y has been signed with LG Chem: now you know why don't buy those future Model Y coming from Shangai.

Tesla China signs contract with LG Chem for Model Y production

 

[TimothyHW3]

"The 20" P had maximum rated range of 299 rated miles, 481km, at 100%. FYI. "

Nope, still showed 500km inside the car.
The 2021 Ps delivered in Europe show about 520-530kms inside the car (not conclusive yet as too few data from cold batteries)

This was not a 21 model he is quoting...

You are wrong time and time again and you still continue. Some people simply never learn...


FYI, @39 secs ...

 

[EV Promoter]

LOL , now i understand!

16 october 2020 - Tesla cancel the 7-days no question return
16 october 2020 - Start of production of Frankstein M3 2021 refresh

Tesla cancels its ballsy 'no questions asked' 7-day return policy - Electrek

Ahahaha, what a pirate

 

[EV Promoter]

WELCOME TO THE LOTTERY, U.S. !

Tesla Model 3 82kWh battery pack confirmed by California Clean Fuel Reward website - Drive Tesla Canada

 

[eivissa]

German Model 3 Performance Refresh SMT Values