MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[FredMt]

I would be mildly surprised if this throttling persists long term. There may always be a small gap, but I'd expect this to narrow.

Yes, i hope too, but we are very far for now...

 

[TimothyHW3]

have a 2021 TM3P

If you actually read what I quoted and what you said - we were talking about LG batteries. You have M3P, with Panasonic...
You quoted someone saying the LGs charge fast and I said "if they came from IONIQ", this was never directed towards you, the "you" was directed towards the person you quoted.

The LGs charge way slower and this has been proven already.

 

[TimothyHW3]

Or do you think the 2021 TM3P takes longer to heat than the 2020?

Not only do I think that- it is heating slower. It uses less power from the stators and it also uses heat from the battery to heat up the cabin while driving.

Also, it seems it doesn't run the stators to 50C like it did before, it shuts off earlier - I assume the reason here is, because a lot of tests showed a higher grid consumption of Teslas and they didn't like it.

Like I said, driving the car at 90km/h in Norway will not heat it up enough for you to get good speeds.

Nyland just did a M3P 250kW test and it was a little slower than before when you factor in the bigger capacity. But not by much and it could be because of the cold(it affects the chargers too)

 

[khelge]

Just wanted to chime in since someone commented that his P throttled at 20% soc. My E3D LR throttles heavily at 20% SoC, feels like I'm driving my old leaf with eco mode on. Happened the 3 times I have been that low so far, around 1-5C temp outside. It shows about 4 dots on the right side of the "energy line" indicating that I don't have access to full power. Happens at 20 or 21% or so and stayed until I charged it again.

Any recommendations to apps I can use to track charging speed when I don't have SMT/OBD connector? Think you can track it via tesla api?

 

[Landro]

Any recommendations to apps I can use to track charging speed when I don't have SMT/OBD connector? Think you can track it via tesla api?

If you use Teslamate it will also track your charging details without any additional effort. This is an example where I am charging my E5D from 55% to 73%.

 

[TimothyHW3]

My E3D LR throttles heavily at 20% SoC,

Do you know what the battery temperature was roughly? What was the outside temperature and how long were you driving at what speeds?

 

[FredMt]

After he latest sw updates he TM3P is severely throttled when you get down below ~20-25% rated range.
Above 60km/h it's easily as slow s he SR+ (slow being used relatively here).
I couldn't overtake a hyundai ioniq on a stretch where I can usually blast past 4-5 cars (safely)

Could this be how they increased the WLTP rating that much on the P?

Did you take into account that
- the possibility of acceleration is directly linked to the battery charge rate and its discharge capacity. It is max beyond 90% SoC and then it decreases.
-that the discharge performance is also closely linked to the temperature of the battery, in the cold it is clearly reduced.

This 2 points can perfectly be combined and greatly limit acceleration.

 

[Korgmatose]

As of 2020.48.30, if I do a estimated range * average consumption /SOC I get 75.4 capacity over several different socs... On the pana LR awd

 

[Marius A]

Did you take into account that
- the possibility of acceleration is directly linked to the battery charge rate and its discharge capacity. It is max beyond 90% SoC and then it decreases.
-that the discharge performance is also closely linked to the temperature of the battery, in the cold it is clearly reduced.

This 2 points can perfectly be combined and greatly limit acceleration.

It's very different from my 2020 p, it feels like when the 2020 got down to the yellow range warning. But it happens at ~200km instead of ~100km

 

[FredMt]

For me bad charging speed of LG E5D pack is confirmed : French user of TM3 LR 2021 with LG E5D pack report exactly same Bjorn bad curve of charge(see first curve below) 28 minutes from 8% to 69%.
No need to talk about supercharger V3 under these conditions ...
For now, LG E5D is only for Europe market.

View attachment 622610

And below curve of Bjorn
View attachment 622612

Edit : Some German users report clearly 210kw on supercharger V3 at begining of the charge. Of course curve regulaly go down, and it s not level of Panasonic battery, but i think that it demonstrate that LG battery supports more than supercharger V2 and that charge curve on supercharger V2 could be maintain higher.

 

[TomaGo]

That’s could be a good news.
Happy new year

 

[FredMt]

New increase in range on the EU LR 2021 - E5D - LG Chem NMC811 battery.

The sequence by now is:

- Original update, 535 km, 74.2 kWh Nominal, Constant 139.5 Wh/km, Degradation 0.40%
- 2020.48.12.1, 545 km, 74.6 kWh Nominal, Constant 137.0 Wh/km, Degradation -0.13%
- 2020.48.26, 549 km, 74.9 kWh Nominal, Constant 136,6 Wh/km, Degradation -0.54%

PS: notice the silly 48.26, with an empty plaza available on screen, the trip window hide part of the car. Not talking about the rest. Fire that UI team.

View attachment 622027 View attachment 622028 View attachment 622029

I would have a question : How can it be possible that value of "nominal full pack" is higher than "full pack when new". I was thinking that it was the contrary.
And it's hard to understand too, fluctuations of value of battery degradation. Of course we have a different constant, it seems that SMT adjust some values of parameters by calculation and not reading.

 

[FredMt]

I think you will love this video...

@TomaGo you should update that cute chart of yours.

Are we sure the E3D 77.8kWh battery is "the old one" (that of the 2019 and 2020 models)? And if so, wouldn't it be linked to the transition to the 2021 models. In any case, I have a little trouble thinking that Tesla will go on and maintain over time 2 productions lines of Panasonic cells in parallel (old 2170 cells and new 2170L)...
Otherwise, I agree that with regard to the capacities, E3D panasonic would have less degradation at the beginning than the LG used 100% from the start, but that remains conditional for me because we do not yet really know the real degradation LG battery over time.

 

[TimothyHW3]

Are we sure the E3D 77.8kWh battery is "the old one" (that of the 2019 and 2020 models)?

No, we are not. Like I said in the video, the cell voltage is lower than my previous from 2019, but not by much. And it also seems to be lower than that of a real 82kWh found in the performance so it can't be the 82kWh performance L either.

Also the 82kWh in the performance are 0L and mine is 00. My old one was revision M this is P. So it is not the exact same battery as in 2019 or 2020.


True about the degradation not being certain, but having around 5kWh more buffer will help with degradation more than any cell chemistry. My old car had lost only about 3kWh in about 50,000km and I have seen cars with even less degradation. (I fast charge a lot) So basically this brand new car is where my old car was at about 35.000km.

Some German users report clearly 210kw on supercharger V3 at begining of the charge. Of course curve regulaly go down, and it s not level of Panasonic battery, but i think that it demonstrate that LG battery supports more than supercharger V2 and that charge curve on supercharger V2 could be maintain higher.

Nobody disputed that the LGs can go to 210kW. If you find that early summer-chinese test, the highest they tested was about 210kW. The Panasonic one went to about 235kW on the same charger. The problem is the overall curve and it is consistantly slower than the Panasonic one. Basically the LG batteries go below 100kW as soon as 40% or so whereas the Panasonic ones at about 55%-60%

In my tests, my new Panasonic is also slightly slower than the old one and the 82kWh Nyland tested was also slower than the older batteries. Not by much, but 2-3 minutes at least (LG around 6-10 minutes).

So this might be another way of Tesla trying to minimize (aka "soft lock") the difference between the charging curves.

 

[Marius A]

No, we are not. Like I said in the video, the cell voltage is lower than my previous from 2019, but not by much. And it also seems to be lower than that of a real 82kWh found in the performance so it can't be the 82kWh performance L either.

Also the 82kWh in the performance are 0L and mine is 00. My old one was revision M this is P. So it is not the exact same battery as in 2019 or 2020.


True about the degradation not being certain, but having around 5kWh more buffer will help with degradation more than any cell chemistry. My old car had lost only about 3kWh in about 50,000km and I have seen cars with even less degradation. (I fast charge a lot) So basically this brand new car is where my old car was at about 35.000km.



Nobody disputed that the LGs can go to 210kW. If you find that early summer-chinese test, the highest they tested was about 210kW. The Panasonic one went to about 235kW on the same charger. The problem is the overall curve and it is consistantly slower than the Panasonic one. Basically the LG batteries go below 100kW as soon as 40% or so whereas the Panasonic ones at about 55%-60%

In my tests, my new Panasonic is also slightly slower than the old one and the 82kWh Nyland tested was also slower than the older batteries. Not by much, but 2-3 minutes at least (LG around 6-10 minutes).

So this might be another way of Tesla trying to minimize (aka "soft lock") the difference between the charging curves.

Nyland is in Norway, and he tested the LG in cold weather, so (according to you) it's expected to be slower

 

[TimothyHW3]

Nyland is in Norway, and he tested the LG in cold weather, so (according to you) it's expected to be slower

He just tested the P with 82kWh Panasonic. I am talking about this test, not the LG one.

And yes, his LG test was also consistantly slower across updates.
So far not a single test has indicated that the LGs have similiar charge curves as the Panasonic ones, old or new - it is consistantly slower both in summer (chinese test vs Panasonic on the same day and charger) and winter.

 

[FredMt]

So far not a single test has indicated that the LGs have similiar charge curves as the Panasonic ones, old or new - it is consistantly slower

Perfectly agree, LG permanently slower than Panasonic, but could be "acceptable" in regard of some users habits. for example, for me, i charge at home and in destination SoC, exceptionaly in supercharger. But i understand that is not this really the problem... what a shame to have 2 packs with so differencies at same price !

 

[TimothyHW3]

I really can expect from Tesla to lower the speeds on the Panasonic batteries to match the LG ones if people complain a lot. If they soft lock the capacity, they will surely soft lock the charging as well. But that will def be my last Tesla then.
The other big scammy issue is that they soft lock the european cars, but so far not the US cars. Would be interesting to see if @kxts can chime in with scan my tesla data or at least a V3 charge curve (or V2 as well) or a few 100% charges and rated miles. Or a screenshot of his energy tab around the 137Wh/km line.

 

[FredMt]

Like I said in the video, the cell voltage is lower than my previous from 2019, but not by much. And it also seems to be lower than that of a real 82kWh found in the performance so it can't be the 82kWh performance L either.

I understood in the video that the voltage of cells could be lowered to mask a reserve of power which could be kept for a later use.
In relation to these elements and observations done, it seems to me that we cannot exclude that the 2170L already installed in the E3D pack. I am only talking about the presence of the high density cells in the E3D packs, not the size of the pack which apparently cannot be at the level of the TM3P.

 

[sirld]

Hi,

So I have a Model 3 LR giving about 333 miles or 535 km on the new update and it is a E3D (delivery beginning of Dec in UK) from above, if I understand correctly, that is most likely a Panasonic with a soft lock?

Thanks

I have charged to

Yes E3D is Panasonic pack. Regarding posts above, the value of your range is a little low, it should be around 548km. Perhaps you have to calibrate your battery. If you never do it before, best is to charge 1 time up to 100% on a supercharger and wait until the end message, time to equilibrate cells. Remember to drive just after, because battery must not stay at 100% too many time. After best is to discharge until 90% (or less).

To take a picture of your battery sticker more informations here :2021 Model 3 - Charge data

I charged to 91% and got 308 miles, so that suggests 308/.91 = 338.5 range? Also I have attached a very low resolution photo of the battery sticker, I am not sure how to improve the picture yet. But, it looks like Made in USA.