Model 3 2021 rear view camera lag - potential court case

[nickpma]

Hey all,

I'm the owner of a November 2021 Tesla Model 3 (made in China) and have been experiencing a significant lag in my rear view camera.
This has been introduced with the v11 software, when purchasing this vehicle this issue was not present.

I first notified Tesla during a service visit around June 2022.
I was told that software did cause this issue, and it would be resolved in a future software/firmware fix.
We're now almost a year later, May 2023, and yet the issue is still present.

During this time I almost hit objects behind me a few times due to there being a significant delay and the car/object behind me suddenly appearing on my screen.
With such a narrow envelope in the back, not using the camera is very hard.
Besides, if anything/anyone suddenly moves behind my car, I may hit it, making me feel quite unsafe to do any reversing in my car.

Consumer Rights
According to the ACCC, a product or service purchased needs to be of acceptable quality.
Acceptable quality means the product:

• is safe, durable and free from defects
• has an acceptable appearance and finish
• does everything that similar products are commonly used for.

I would argue that the rear view camera in my car is not safe and is not free from defects.
It also does not do everything similar products are commonly used for.

Tesla's Statement
Tesla has acknowledge there is an issue.
To quote them: "Engineering have looked into the data and have confirmed it is linked to software and will be resolved in a future firmware update."
Summary of the last phone call:

Just to complete the summary of our call, a few things I hope you can confirm.

1. This “bug” was introduced in v11 of the software
2. This “bug” affects more cars (likely from the same generation/same specs) and you mentioned you experienced this yourself when you drove in one
3. You are not aware of a way to measure how big the delay is, but can confirm the rear view camera (software) certainly does not function as expected
4. Tesla does not have a timeline on when and if a fix will be rolled out

I was also told during my service visit that the Intel Atom processor is simply not fast enough and that with the new AMD Ryzen processor this does not happen.
But an upgrade is not possible.

Actions so far
Here is a list of actions tried by myself and Tesla to date.

1. Reported this to Tesla service Richmond in June 2022
2. Looked at forums and found similar issues, but no fix
3. Waiting almost a year for a software fix
4. Had it looked at again during a service visit in May 2023
   1. Tesla reported no hardware issues were found
   2. Tesla acknowledge the camera is lagging
   3. Tesla said there's no fix at this point in time, I'll need to wait
5. The USB drive was formatted by Tesla
6. A hard-reset was performed on the car
7. The service manager from Mulgrave Tesla called me and confirmed there is an issue, but their hands are tied
   1. No fix is available
   2. A car swap is not an option, Tesla does not want in any way, shape or form change my car to another car (of the same model/year)
   3. A financial compensation is not an option, Tesla so far has refused to offer any form of compensation

Next Steps
I'm now waiting to hear from the service manager at Tesla Mulgrave to go back to management and discuss if any compensation is possible.
If this leads to nothing, I'm likely going to VCAT and claim either a fix (which won't happen), another car or what will likely happen a financial compensation.

In my mind, and according to consumer rights, $60k for a car with a significant defect is simply not acceptable.
Especially since the issue was not present when purchasing the car, hence I could not have known there would be a defect.
Is anyone in the same situation (and wants to join)?
Does anyone have experience going to VCAT for something similar?
Does anyone have any advice on preparing for a possible case (I understand I need hard evidence), but would you get legal aid, or are there other things to consider?

Any help is appreciated.

 

[paulp]

Hey all,

I'm the owner of a November 2021 Tesla Model 3 (made in China) and have been experiencing a significant lag in my rear view camera.
This has been introduced with the v11 software, when purchasing this vehicle this issue was not present.

I first notified Tesla during a service visit around June 2022.
I was told that software did cause this issue, and it would be resolved in a future software/firmware fix.
We're now almost a year later, May 2023, and yet the issue is still present.

During this time I almost hit objects behind me a few times due to there being a significant delay and the car/object behind me suddenly appearing on my screen.
With such a narrow envelope in the back, not using the camera is very hard.
Besides, if anything/anyone suddenly moves behind my car, I may hit it, making me feel quite unsafe to do any reversing in my car.

Consumer Rights
According to the ACCC, a product or service purchased needs to be of acceptable quality.
Acceptable quality means the product:

• is safe, durable and free from defects
• has an acceptable appearance and finish
• does everything that similar products are commonly used for.

I would argue that the rear view camera in my car is not safe and is not free from defects.
It also does not do everything similar products are commonly used for.

Tesla's Statement
Tesla has acknowledge there is an issue.
To quote them: "Engineering have looked into the data and have confirmed it is linked to software and will be resolved in a future firmware update."
Summary of the last phone call:

Just to complete the summary of our call, a few things I hope you can confirm.

1. This “bug” was introduced in v11 of the software
2. This “bug” affects more cars (likely from the same generation/same specs) and you mentioned you experienced this yourself when you drove in one
3. You are not aware of a way to measure how big the delay is, but can confirm the rear view camera (software) certainly does not function as expected
4. Tesla does not have a timeline on when and if a fix will be rolled out

I was also told during my service visit that the Intel Atom processor is simply not fast enough and that with the new AMD Ryzen processor this does not happen.
But an upgrade is not possible.

Actions so far
Here is a list of actions tried by myself and Tesla to date.

1. Reported this to Tesla service Richmond in June 2022
2. Looked at forums and found similar issues, but no fix
3. Waiting almost a year for a software fix
4. Had it looked at again during a service visit in May 2023
   1. Tesla reported no hardware issues were found
   2. Tesla acknowledge the camera is lagging
   3. Tesla said there's no fix at this point in time, I'll need to wait
5. The USB drive was formatted by Tesla
6. A hard-reset was performed on the car
7. The service manager from Mulgrave Tesla called me and confirmed there is an issue, but their hands are tied
   1. No fix is available
   2. A car swap is not an option, Tesla does not want in any way, shape or form change my car to another car (of the same model/year)
   3. A financial compensation is not an option, Tesla so far has refused to offer any form of compensation

Next Steps
I'm now waiting to hear from the service manager at Tesla Mulgrave to go back to management and discuss if any compensation is possible.
If this leads to nothing, I'm likely going to VCAT and claim either a fix (which won't happen), another car or what will likely happen a financial compensation.

In my mind, and according to consumer rights, $60k for a car with a significant defect is simply not acceptable.
Especially since the issue was not present when purchasing the car, hence I could not have known there would be a defect.
Is anyone in the same situation (and wants to join)?
Does anyone have experience going to VCAT for something similar?
Does anyone have any advice on preparing for a possible case (I understand I need hard evidence), but would you get legal aid, or are there other things to consider?

Any help is appreciated.

You need to consider that no government department will enforce consumer law, and that it has no penalties in legislation to any company that refuses to engage with it. You also need to consider that your costs are likely to be close to $200,000 to fight a court case, and if you lose you will have to pay tesla’s court costs, likely another $100k. You should also know that tesla australia employ several in-house lawyers, so the cost does not concern them. Tesla will likely argue that the rear camera does not impact the main purpose of a car, which is to get you from A to B.

 

[nickpma]

You need to consider that no government department will enforce consumer law, and that it has no penalties in legislation to any company that refuses to engage with it. You also need to consider that your costs are likely to be close to $200,000 to fight a court case, and if you lose you will have to pay tesla’s court costs, likely another $100k. You should also know that tesla australia employ several in-house lawyers, so the cost does not concern them. Tesla will likely argue that the rear camera does not impact the main purpose of a car, which is to get you from A to B.

I appreciate your response, however you're not likely to be in Australia or know Australian law. In Victoria you've got a tribunal called VCAT that allows you to raise a dispute for a relatively low fee ($500) and whichever party wins, the costs will not be paid by the other party.

So your comment may be relevant in other parts of the world, it's fortunately not relevant to my situation.

 

[B3AU]

Hey all,

I'm the owner of a November 2021 Tesla Model 3 (made in China) and have been experiencing a significant lag in my rear view camera.
This has been introduced with the v11 software, when purchasing this vehicle this issue was not present.

I first notified Tesla during a service visit around June 2022.
I was told that software did cause this issue, and it would be resolved in a future software/firmware fix.
We're now almost a year later, May 2023, and yet the issue is still present.

During this time I almost hit objects behind me a few times due to there being a significant delay and the car/object behind me suddenly appearing on my screen.
With such a narrow envelope in the back, not using the camera is very hard.
Besides, if anything/anyone suddenly moves behind my car, I may hit it, making me feel quite unsafe to do any reversing in my car.

Consumer Rights
According to the ACCC, a product or service purchased needs to be of acceptable quality.
Acceptable quality means the product:

• is safe, durable and free from defects
• has an acceptable appearance and finish
• does everything that similar products are commonly used for.

I would argue that the rear view camera in my car is not safe and is not free from defects.
It also does not do everything similar products are commonly used for.

Tesla's Statement
Tesla has acknowledge there is an issue.
To quote them: "Engineering have looked into the data and have confirmed it is linked to software and will be resolved in a future firmware update."
Summary of the last phone call:

Just to complete the summary of our call, a few things I hope you can confirm.

1. This “bug” was introduced in v11 of the software
2. This “bug” affects more cars (likely from the same generation/same specs) and you mentioned you experienced this yourself when you drove in one
3. You are not aware of a way to measure how big the delay is, but can confirm the rear view camera (software) certainly does not function as expected
4. Tesla does not have a timeline on when and if a fix will be rolled out

I was also told during my service visit that the Intel Atom processor is simply not fast enough and that with the new AMD Ryzen processor this does not happen.
But an upgrade is not possible.

Actions so far
Here is a list of actions tried by myself and Tesla to date.

1. Reported this to Tesla service Richmond in June 2022
2. Looked at forums and found similar issues, but no fix
3. Waiting almost a year for a software fix
4. Had it looked at again during a service visit in May 2023
   1. Tesla reported no hardware issues were found
   2. Tesla acknowledge the camera is lagging
   3. Tesla said there's no fix at this point in time, I'll need to wait
5. The USB drive was formatted by Tesla
6. A hard-reset was performed on the car
7. The service manager from Mulgrave Tesla called me and confirmed there is an issue, but their hands are tied
   1. No fix is available
   2. A car swap is not an option, Tesla does not want in any way, shape or form change my car to another car (of the same model/year)
   3. A financial compensation is not an option, Tesla so far has refused to offer any form of compensation

If you consider it a serious safety issue that affects multiple cars manufactured at the same time, it may be worth seeing if a recall is necessary for Tesla to ensure that all affected cars are 'safe'.

Eg, my last ICE car - a Subaru Impreza - had a recall in place as the rear camera feed would freeze https://www.vehiclerecalls.gov.au/recalls/rec-003767

"If the reversing image freezes it may create an unsafe situation by not representing the true nature of the conditions behind the vehicle, posing a risk to other road users."

Subaru sorted this with a software update - back to a dealer in the good old days - whereas Tesla should be OTA - but if you think there are many vehicles affected and not an issue isolated to you, maybe that's another way to put pressure on them to sort things.

 

[Blue heaven]

I appreciate your response, however you're not likely to be in Australia or know Australian law. In Victoria you've got a tribunal called VCAT that allows you to raise a dispute for a relatively low fee ($500) and whichever party wins, the costs will not be paid by the other party.

So your comment may be relevant in other parts of the world, it's fortunately not relevant to my situation.

Was Adelaide kicked out of Australia or did they leave by themselves?

 

[paulp]

I appreciate your response, however you're not likely to be in Australia or know Australian law. In Victoria you've got a tribunal called VCAT that allows you to raise a dispute for a relatively low fee ($500) and whichever party wins, the costs will not be paid by the other party.

So your comment may be relevant in other parts of the world, it's fortunately not relevant to my situation.

You may care to note that on the left it shows I live in Adelaide. Now I know you victorians think victoria is australia, but trust me, there are other states and Adelaide is the capital of one of them.
The consumer law you are referencing is an Australian federal law.

 

[B3AU]

You need to consider that no government department will enforce consumer law.

The onsumer law you are referencing is an Australian federal law.

You are actually directed to your state government department - as mentioned by nickpma being VCAT in Victoria

Where to go for consumer help

Several agencies provide advice, dispute resolution and small claims legal services. There are other regulators and government agencies that can provide information and assistance on matters related to different sectors.

www.accc.gov.au

If you have tried to resolve your problem with a business, contact your local state and territory consumer protection agency. They're sometimes called 'consumer affairs' or 'fair trading' agencies.

They can provide you with information about your rights and options. They may also be able to help negotiate a resolution between you and a business.

 

[jeremymc7]

I’ve has similar issues on my US built Tesla.

There is so much coding seemingly being added with new and enhanced features. I’m sure there is also some bloat from all the updates and rewrites to remove USS, Radar, etc.

Newer HW might be better able to keep up but Tesla isn’t offering upgrades this time around due to complexity and cost involved.

This is only one lag type issue with recent builds. Even simple navigation issues. It’s not uncommon for me to start a drive a the navigation thinks I’m miles away. Often requiring disengagement and regaugement until it figures out where it really is.

 

[RodDavies]

Hey all,

I'm the owner of a November 2021 Tesla Model 3 (made in China) and have been experiencing a significant lag in my rear view camera.
This has been introduced with the v11 software, when purchasing this vehicle this issue was not present.

I first notified Tesla during a service visit around June 2022.
I was told that software did cause this issue, and it would be resolved in a future software/firmware fix.
We're now almost a year later, May 2023, and yet the issue is still present.

During this time I almost hit objects behind me a few times due to there being a significant delay and the car/object behind me suddenly appearing on my screen.
With such a narrow envelope in the back, not using the camera is very hard.
Besides, if anything/anyone suddenly moves behind my car, I may hit it, making me feel quite unsafe to do any reversing in my car.

Consumer Rights
According to the ACCC, a product or service purchased needs to be of acceptable quality.
Acceptable quality means the product:

• is safe, durable and free from defects
• has an acceptable appearance and finish
• does everything that similar products are commonly used for.

I would argue that the rear view camera in my car is not safe and is not free from defects.
It also does not do everything similar products are commonly used for.

Tesla's Statement
Tesla has acknowledge there is an issue.
To quote them: "Engineering have looked into the data and have confirmed it is linked to software and will be resolved in a future firmware update."
Summary of the last phone call:

Just to complete the summary of our call, a few things I hope you can confirm.

1. This “bug” was introduced in v11 of the software
2. This “bug” affects more cars (likely from the same generation/same specs) and you mentioned you experienced this yourself when you drove in one
3. You are not aware of a way to measure how big the delay is, but can confirm the rear view camera (software) certainly does not function as expected
4. Tesla does not have a timeline on when and if a fix will be rolled out

I was also told during my service visit that the Intel Atom processor is simply not fast enough and that with the new AMD Ryzen processor this does not happen.
But an upgrade is not possible.

Actions so far
Here is a list of actions tried by myself and Tesla to date.

1. Reported this to Tesla service Richmond in June 2022
2. Looked at forums and found similar issues, but no fix
3. Waiting almost a year for a software fix
4. Had it looked at again during a service visit in May 2023
   1. Tesla reported no hardware issues were found
   2. Tesla acknowledge the camera is lagging
   3. Tesla said there's no fix at this point in time, I'll need to wait
5. The USB drive was formatted by Tesla
6. A hard-reset was performed on the car
7. The service manager from Mulgrave Tesla called me and confirmed there is an issue, but their hands are tied
   1. No fix is available
   2. A car swap is not an option, Tesla does not want in any way, shape or form change my car to another car (of the same model/year)
   3. A financial compensation is not an option, Tesla so far has refused to offer any form of compensation

Next Steps
I'm now waiting to hear from the service manager at Tesla Mulgrave to go back to management and discuss if any compensation is possible.
If this leads to nothing, I'm likely going to VCAT and claim either a fix (which won't happen), another car or what will likely happen a financial compensation.

In my mind, and according to consumer rights, $60k for a car with a significant defect is simply not acceptable.
Especially since the issue was not present when purchasing the car, hence I could not have known there would be a defect.
Is anyone in the same situation (and wants to join)?
Does anyone have experience going to VCAT for something similar?
Does anyone have any advice on preparing for a possible case (I understand I need hard evidence), but would you get legal aid, or are there other things to consider?

Any help is appreciated.

“

1. You are not aware of a way to measure how big the delay is, but can confirm the rear view camera (software) certainly does not function as expected”

I’m interested in this statement. I would have thought a) eyes for visual clarification and b) a clock to time the delay would be enough to measure the delay?

I’m sure Tesla will point that out…

Imagine the days we had no cameras in the back. How did you ever reverse?

 

[Onshore]

How long is the lag in question? We talking 5 seconds or 5 minutes?

 

[nickpma]

“

1. You are not aware of a way to measure how big the delay is, but can confirm the rear view camera (software) certainly does not function as expected”

I’m interested in this statement. I would have thought a) eyes for visual clarification and b) a clock to time the delay would be enough to measure the delay?

I’m sure Tesla will point that out…

Imagine the days we had no cameras in the back. How did you ever reverse?

I want to objectively measure this, which I prefer to be done by software.
You won't be able to measure x milliseconds (left's say half a second) objectively otherwise.

But my question was on people with similar experiences or advice on preparing for a VCAT case.
I don't feel asking questions on how did they ever reverse back in the day really helps me....there's a million questions you could ask about how things were done 50 years ago. Fact is that the camera doesn't worked as intended, just looking at solutions.

 

[DasBoot]

Imagine the days we had no cameras in the back. How did you ever reverse?

The same way we did before seatbelts, airbags, traction control, ABS etc - less safely.

 

[nickpma]

How long is the lag in question? We talking 5 seconds or 5 minutes?

As per my post, not able to measure it.
But it's more of a constant lag, as if it skips half of the frames or something. You reverse in a parking spot and suddenly you're forwarded in time by 2x speed.

5 seconds or 5 minutes I wouldn't consider a real lag, just a non-functioning camera.
Anyway, if you had the same issue you would have noticed it.

 

[nickpma]

You are actually directed to your state government department - as mentioned by nickpma being VCAT in Victoria

Where to go for consumer help

Several agencies provide advice, dispute resolution and small claims legal services. There are other regulators and government agencies that can provide information and assistance on matters related to different sectors.

www.accc.gov.au

Yes, there is consumers affairs, and you can report Tesla to it.
What they do however is collect all complaints coming in, and only if there's a high volume would they taken action.

There's no such thing as an automobile ombudsman, so all you're really left with is going to a tribunal yourself...

 

[jeremymc7]

I see this fairly often when reversing. But honestly it seems more common on the freeway for me.

Screen will freezes for brief period and then go back to a live’ish state.

 

[DasBoot]

Fact is that the camera doesn't worked as intended, just looking at solutions.

As B3AU suggested, it might be worth starting with a regulatory complaint about the safety issue first as a low-effort/cost first step.

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/infrastructure-transport-vehicles/vehicles/reporting-vehicle-safety-or-non-compliance-issue

I've actually experienced this too intermittently (not in the last 12 months though) on a 2019 M3LR. For me, the picture froze for about 1500ms while still reversing, then suddenly catches up to where you actually are.

 

[nickpma]

As B3AU suggested, it might be worth starting with a regulatory complaint about the safety issue first as a low-effort/cost first step.

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/infrastructure-transport-vehicles/vehicles/reporting-vehicle-safety-or-non-compliance-issue

I've actually experienced this too intermittently (not in the last 12 months though) on a 2019 M3LR. For me, the picture froze for about 1500ms while still reversing, then suddenly catches up to where you actually are.

Thanks for the suggestion, will do that right now.
I also realised that I have legal insurance as part of my overall insurance package and have messaged them.

Hopefully they can help out, assuming this is covered in my package. It would save me a lot of time, money and is more likely to come to a resolution.

 

[RodDavies]

Might it be the actual rear camera? Have Tesla checked that out?

 

[Power Hungry]

Hmmm! Surely if it's a problem for you it must be a problem with every Tesla with that software version. Otherwise, it's a one off thing that needs to be individually rectified. If they acknowledged it was a software issue, it should be addressed.

 

[jeremymc7]

Interestingly Tesla is doing a recall of every Chinese Tesla. ~ 1.1M cas and it will be software fix. Like most Tesla recalls. In that case it’s basically regen and braking at request of the government.