JeffK
Well-Known Member
yet you did actually because you said if it came with even 23 more miles of range then you wouldn't get the upgrade. see bolt range vs Model 3 minimum range. 23 mi of range difference.
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JeffK
Well-Known Member
you did ... you said if it was more than the Bolt's range of 23 more miles then you wouldn't need the upgrade. Maybe you're saying you misspoke I guess.
I also hope the Model 3 base range beats the Bolt even if only for bragging rights.
Swampgator
Active Member
SarahsDad,
You should be careful about thinking in terms of S/X for M3
If increased energy density and lower cost gets us a 300 mile M3 needing only a 75 khw battery pack, that is exactly what Tesla will do.
Elon has already said no need for 400+ mile range.
If you can charge a 75 kwh pack in 15 minutes there is no need for more range, and carrying around all that weight every day is very inefficient.
You should be careful about thinking in terms of S/X for M3
If increased energy density and lower cost gets us a 300 mile M3 needing only a 75 khw battery pack, that is exactly what Tesla will do.
Elon has already said no need for 400+ mile range.
If you can charge a 75 kwh pack in 15 minutes there is no need for more range, and carrying around all that weight every day is very inefficient.
alseTrick
Active Member
Where? Upgrading from a base 220-mile vehicle will cost thousands. Agreed?
I didn't say the larger battery would only increase your range by 20 winter miles. I said you were making your decision on 20 winter miles, which is what you've suggested said several times now. That's what it means when you say a 220-mile battery is not enough and that it needs to be 250+. You are literally intimating that you will spend thousands of dollars to upgrade from a base 220-mile vehicle just because it's 30 regular (or 20ish winter) miles short of your desired range.
Are those 20 winter miles so important that you would spend thousands of dollars on a larger battery? That was my question.
alseTrick
Active Member
What he said was Tesla could make a vehicle with a 400-mile range right now, but that it wouldn't be economical (something along those lines). He didn't say "no need", to my knowledge.
Elon on 31st march, 2017:
.... Oh, did we really say over 215 miles? I guess it was a little mistake, what we really wanted to say is the range ion the base model 3 is over 251 miles ...
A 65 KWh pack should do it.
.... Oh, did we really say over 215 miles? I guess it was a little mistake, what we really wanted to say is the range ion the base model 3 is over 251 miles ...
A 65 KWh pack should do it.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Elon once upon time said All Wheel Drive was unnecessary with modern traction control.
Many customers in Germany and in the northern half of the US insisted otherwise.
There will come a day when Tesla will face direct competitors and Elon will not be able to dictate to EV customers what they can and can't have.
Some may want a vegan eco model and some an ultra luxurious high performance model that still gets 90 MPGe.
I can't answer for him, but I do understand his stand in this. Everyone consider buying an BEV should know what distances they do drive on an regular schedule, like daily or weekly. They should also try to establish how real miles correspond with EPA miles (or NEDC) with their own driving style and climate/topology. They should also make a dessication on how much buffer they need/want, no one wants to get home in the evening with 0 miles range left every day. Based on this you have to establish what EPA range you need to get from your new BEV to have a worry free driving experience.
For my self I have calculated that I need at least an range of 200 EPA miles for this. If Model 3 should have been announced with 180 or 190 EPA miles, I would have to consider getting an battery upgrade to get this worry free driving that I want. ... or have to drive slower and/or have to live with a smaller buffer then I'm comfortable with and/or find a way get some charging at the destination (no way I could in my case) or take a detour to spend time (and money) to charge at some fast charger on a more or less daily basis (at least in the winter). So yes, in that thought scenario it would have been worth it even for "those 20 winter miles" - depending on price...
As it is, Model 3 is announced with an EPA range of 215+ miles, so I'm fine. But I would still consider getting an upgrade, depending on the price and extra range I would get. But I have no problem seeing that someone else could have set their target at 230 EPA miles, or maybe 238 EPA miles. If you think that is what you need and you have the money it cost to get that range, I fully support him on his dessication to get it, even if it costs him thousands of dollars and the range difference between what the base range is and what he needs is only 20 miles (EPA). If the range of the upgraded battery is even more then whats needed, he gets more buffers, and that is something you never get to much of
JeffK
Well-Known Member
One of the reasons I believe the Model 3 will have a 400 mile range option is because Tesla like to stay ahead of the game. Many manufacturers are planning fast charging 300-400 mile EVs for 2020. If the Model 3 ramp up wasn't even originally scheduled until 2020 then it leads one to believe they had always intended the Model 3 to still be competitive at that time.
Chevy Bolt averages 3.5 mi / kWh (28 kWh /100 mi)
BMW i3 averages 3.7 mi / kWh (27 kWh / 100 mi)
The electric Hyundai Ioniq averages 4.0 mi / kWh (25 kWh / 100 m)
Figure out how to fit a 120 kWh battery option and even with the worst fuel economy above you're at 400 miles.
Chevy Bolt averages 3.5 mi / kWh (28 kWh /100 mi)
BMW i3 averages 3.7 mi / kWh (27 kWh / 100 mi)
The electric Hyundai Ioniq averages 4.0 mi / kWh (25 kWh / 100 m)
Figure out how to fit a 120 kWh battery option and even with the worst fuel economy above you're at 400 miles.
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Then I disagree with your reasoning. Having to stop for a 5-minute charge every single day would be a colossal nuisance. Not just the five minutes lost, but the general hassle. Being able to drive past that supercharger and ignore it would be worth a lot. Not to mention the greatly-reduced stress on the battery by not having to run it from full to empty every day. Not to mention that some days the supercharger slots might all be in use and he'd have to wait.
With a 500-mile electric car I could sell the Prius and drive the EV up to Canada for my hiking trips, and use destination charging there. There are not going to be superchargers on the secondary roads I take for those trips, and I'm not willing to have to stop at an EV park to use their plug-in (assuming they'd let me) and turn a 6-hour trip into a 10-hour trip. I'd be willing to go half an hour out of my way and stop for half an hour, but for that there'd have to be superchargers on both the routes I use (depending on which lodge is first, and which is last, on my trip plan for a given year.) And those are not coming any time soon. So a 500-mile car would be a worth a lot to me.
Too bad. I can only hope.
In my case, there are no superchargers where I would need them. So, yes, 500 miles of range would allow me to get rid of my Prius, which I now use only once a year for my 6 weeks up in Canada and the occasional run to the recycling center, since the Roadster is too small for hauling anything but 3 or 4 bags of groceries.
LargeHamCollider
Battery cells != scalable
I'm afraid there's a lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread, don't expect the longest range M3 to have more range than the longest range MS.
Also if it weren't for the fact that the 60 is really a 75 I would say don't expect the shortest range M3 to have more range than the shortest range MS. Because the 60 is really a 75 I'd say don't expect the low end M3 to have more range than a 75.
Also if it weren't for the fact that the 60 is really a 75 I would say don't expect the shortest range M3 to have more range than the shortest range MS. Because the 60 is really a 75 I'd say don't expect the low end M3 to have more range than a 75.
I don't think Tesla is worried at all about Model 3 sales taking away from the S or X. So there is no need for them to deliberately limit what the car will be able do in either range or any other feature. Just as with any other car manufacturer if one version is smaller and lighter I would expect it to get better mileage. Look at the Corolla vs the Camry, the Corolla gets better mileage and I don't see it hurting Camry sales. People will buy one car over another for a variety of reasons, range is just one of them.
... but Elon has also several times mentioned 500 miles of range. So I think he is "secretly" dreaming of getting to that point. Someday. But I'm afraid that day will not be very soon
JeffK
Well-Known Member
If you are driving 240-250 miles per day then you'd obviously want to purchase the bigger pack. That probably represents a very, very small percentage of the population and of that, the majority could probably buy the bigger battery anyway and consider it a business expense.
I would say not many people would drive 250 miles every single day for pleasure alone.
Having to stop for 5 minutes when travelling on a vacation or something a few times a year should be perfectly acceptable.
It's not question of "deliberately limiting" what the car will do. It's a question of compromising between the cost of batteries and the range of the car. How many people will be willing to pay for how much range? If they plan on building, say 400,000 cars per year, as a random number, and they know they'll sell all of them, but of those, only 25 people would pay for a 500-mile battery pack, they won't offer it because the market does not justify it.
The lighter car needs less battery for the same distance. Some people would pay for the bigger battery, but others will prefer to save money on the price of the car. Judging how many people will be willing to pay for what range is how they'll decide what ranges to offer.
I'm in a small minority of people who would pay for a 500-mile car. I don't expect to see that in what remains of my lifetime. But, as I said, I can dream.
Ok, I think I see where the confusion is.
That twenty extra would make a difference in my one long road trip we take. 250 could make it a no stop trip. 220 probably not. There are other advantages to having a bigger battery too.
If the range is 250 base I would be good with that. If it is 220 I would want a battery upgrade. I would expect that a battery upgrade would get me more than 250 from a base of 220. So no, I am not going to spend thousands for 20 miles. The decision might be based off of 20 miles but I showed how that was significant in our one long road trip. I think I made that clear in subsequent posts.
Some seem to be hung up on my first post and not reading subsequent ones.
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There are other advantages for having a bigger battery too.
Yes, well said. You've summed it up nicely.I can't answer for him, but I do understand his stand in this. Everyone consider buying an BEV should know what distances they do drive on an regular schedule, like daily or weekly. They should also try to establish how real miles correspond with EPA miles (or NEDC) with their own driving style and climate/topology. They should also make a dessication on how much buffer they need/want, no one wants to get home in the evening with 0 miles range left every day. Based on this you have to establish what EPA range you need to get from your new BEV to have a worry free driving experience.
For my self I have calculated that I need at least an range of 200 EPA miles for this. If Model 3 should have been announced with 180 or 190 EPA miles, I would have to consider getting an battery upgrade to get this worry free driving that I want. ... or have to drive slower and/or have to live with a smaller buffer then I'm comfortable with and/or find a way get some charging at the destination (no way I could in my case) or take a detour to spend time (and money) to charge at some fast charger on a more or less daily basis (at least in the winter). So yes, in that thought scenario it would have been worth it even for "those 20 winter miles" - depending on price...
As it is, Model 3 is announced with an EPA range of 215+ miles, so I'm fine. But I would still consider getting an upgrade, depending on the price and extra range I would get. But I have no problem seeing that someone else could have set their target at 230 EPA miles, or maybe 238 EPA miles. If you think that is what you need and you have the money it cost to get that range, I fully support him on his dessication to get it, even if it costs him thousands of dollars and the range difference between what the base range is and what he needs is only 20 miles (EPA). If the range of the upgraded battery is even more then whats needed, he gets more buffers, and that is something you never get to much of
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