Model 3 Performance aftermarket brake pads

[musculobog]

Hey guys,
Regarding a subject beaten to death and beyond: brake pads; for spirited driving, don`t think I`ll be hitting the track. Model 3 Perf.
1. Ferodo DS2500 (400 USD)
2. Unplugged Street & Track (600 USD)
3. Endless MX72 (800 USD)
Any experience with any of these? Wouldn`t sacrifice performance to spare some bucks, but neither to throw money out the window.
I am leaning towards the Unplugged ones (because of this review: Unplugged Performance's new PFC bake pads.), seem like a less noisy version of XP8 which means they are great? I know Endless are top notch but price is a bit steep, Ferodo are very popular but I don`t know how well they would hold up with a car this heavy.

 

[rpiotro]

I always am puzzled as to why people thing that the OEM pads are not good enough. My experience in most cases is just the opposite.

 

[gearchruncher]

The stock pads are awesome. They're great all around pads with minimal dust and reasonable heat tolerance. I actually do track my car and the only reason I don't run them is they're $$$.

Here's the list though:

M3P Comprehensive Brake Pad Option list

Wanted to start a list of brake pads that fit the stock M3P calipers, with approximate costs for a full front/rear set (As of June 2021): OEM: $650 OEM Track Pack: $1,000 Alphabetical: Carbotech: $440 - $600 (depending on compound) Endless EX90: $750 Endless EX99: $830 G-LOC: $470 - $600...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[SpriteM3]

If you're not going to track I would personally just go with some Power Stop brake pads for 80ish bucks for fronts 60ish bucks for rears. Call me crazy but the M3P isn't an ultra performance car, it seems kind of nuts to spend anything more than 200 dollars for pads, but hey that's just me.

 

[gearchruncher]

The Power Stop pads are 100% going to be a downgrade from stock pads. I'll buy anyone a free set of PowerStops if they want to give me their stock pads.

 

[afadeev]

I always am puzzled as to why people thing that the OEM pads are not good enough. My experience in most cases is just the opposite.

If you ever decide to participate in a DE (Driver Education) event on track, you will quickly and inevitably find the fade resistance limit of all stock pads. The worst feeling ever is pressing the brake pedal at the end of the front straight, and feeling a whole lot of nothing.

It doesn't mean that OEM pads are bad. Merely that the OEM pad material is designed to provide maximum friction at common ambient temps (below freezing and upto ~250F). On track, you will be regularly heating the pads north of 600F, and likely north of 1000F. So you need specialty track pads that are designed to to work best in that temperature range.

Do you need that on the street?
Hell no! In fact, most track pads don't match OEM pads' friction coefficient until they warm up somewhere north of 200F. Not great for pulling out of your driveway first thing in the morning.

Then there are "Performance" pads that straddle the area between OEM and track pads. They tend to be noisier than OEM, dustier, and not as high-temp resistant as track pads. But they can provide an improvement in initial "bite" during braking, and offer higher fade resistance than OEM (e.g.: HP+ on graph below). Not for everyone, but definitely appealing to some performance-oriented drivers.

So there is a time and place for all types of pads. And if you track you push the limits of your car, you will likely learn to swap them, as appropriate.

HTH,
a

P.S.: Sample of track pads friction coefficient vs. temperature graphs:

 

[Clover]

Do not buy track pads for the street thinking they will give you any benefits in braking. They simply will not. Period. On every car made for decades, the stock pads can lock up the brakes. There is nothing magical that can be done beyond that. You want a shorter stopping distance, get better tires or cut weight. The benefit of track pads is they are generally designed to work at a higher temperature than you only generate on the track where you are doing repeated declaration which is converting converting your momentum into heat. In fact, ones designed to work at very high temps don't work very well until you get heat into them. You won't often have that level of heat in them on the street. The tradeoff of a trackpad on the street don't make sense. If manufactures could improve braking performance with pads, they would. If they could pay $100 to cut their stopping distance by 10 ft, they all would, but that is not how it works.

 

[SpriteM3]

Do not buy track pads for the street thinking they will give you any benefits in braking. They simply will not. Period. On every car made for decades, the stock pads can lock up the brakes. There is nothing magical that can be done beyond that. You want a shorter stopping distance, get better tires or cut weight. The benefit of track pads is they are generally designed to work at a higher temperature than you only generate on the track where you are doing repeated declaration which is converting converting your momentum into heat. In fact, ones designed to work at very high temps don't work very well until you get heat into them. You won't often have that level of heat in them on the street. The tradeoff of a trackpad on the street don't make sense. If manufactures could improve braking performance with pads, they would. If they could pay $100 to cut their stopping distance by 10 ft, they all would, but that is not how it works.

This right here.

Stop spending 200+ on pads if you're just street driving.

 

[gearchruncher]

Stop spending 200+ on pads if you're just street driving.

FYI, The OEM pads are about $650. It's really about thinking the OEM pads are trash and need to be replaced than the cost that matters. OEM pads are often a very premium pad with lots of engineering.

Plus, it was only about 3 months ago that any sub-$300 pads came on the market for the M3P's unique calipers.

 

[afadeev]

FYI, The OEM pads are about $650. It's really about thinking the OEM pads are trash and need to be replaced than the cost that matters.

That's a classic straw-man argument.
No-one postulated that "OEM pads are trash" nor that it is "cost that matters". You just made those two up, to counter-argue.

OEM pads are often a very premium pad with lots of engineering.

OK, tell us more about OEM pads!
Who makes them?
What brake pad supplier and model are they?

You do know that Tesla doesn't manufacture any of the following: brake pads, brake rotors, brake fluid, wheels, tires, etc.
Right?

 

[gearchruncher]

No-one postulated that "OEM pads are trash" nor that it is "cost that matters". You just made those two up, to counter-argue.

This very thread is postulated on the idea that the pads need to be changed for "spirited driving." I'm not sure how you're mis-interpreting what I am saying, but I am fully in agreement that they don't. I mean, this was my first post here:

The stock pads are awesome. They're great all around pads with minimal dust and reasonable heat tolerance. I actually do track my car and the only reason I don't run them is they're $$$.

As for cost mattering:

it seems kind of nuts to spend anything more than 200 dollars for pads, but hey that's just me.

Stop spending 200+ on pads if you're just street driving.

Yeah, it was brought up as a specific dollar amount that mattered. I was responding to @SpriteM3 who said that nobody needs $200+ pads on a street car and just pointing out that the stock pads are way more than $200. Good pads do cost a fair amount- but the car already comes with them!

Who makes them?
What brake pad supplier and model are they?

Brembo, both caliper and pads. One of the largest brake manufacturers on the planet. What do you mean "what model are the brake pads"? That's not the way OEM pads work. OEM pads are not Hawk HPS' or EBC Blues. They're custom compounds for that exact car with way more spent on development than any Hawk, Carbotech, EBC, Porterfield, etc has ever spent.

I really think you should re-read this thread, especially since it opened with "I don't plan to track this car" and your first post was "if you're going to go to the track...." and now you're mis-reading what I said too.

 

[musculobog]

So Plaid brakes burst in flames after 2 hard brakes from 130mph (totally plausible situation in daily driving if you want to have a moment of fun) and I am to believe that OEM pads are well thought and good quality? I am not saying good for Nordschleife, but I want to have brakes not mush after 2 3 hard brakes, which I think OEM pads will become very fast trying to stop this 4000lbs car. My RS5 B9 had 380mm and 6 caliper front brakes from factory for 3650lbs and after a few brakes, smokey smokey alot.

 

[jjrandorin]

So Plaid brakes burst in flames after 2 hard brakes from 130mph (totally plausible situation in daily driving if you want to have a moment of fun) and I am to believe that OEM pads are well thought and good quality? I am not saying good for Nordschleife, but I want to have brakes not mush after 2 3 hard brakes, which I think OEM pads will become very fast trying to stop this 4000lbs car. My RS5 B9 had 380mm and 6 caliper front brakes from factory for 3650lbs and after a few brakes, smokey smokey alot.

This is the model 3 subforum, so this is not a discussion about model S plaid (which is a car that is both heavier and a lot faster off the line).

There is nothing about the OEM pads on a model 3 that "mush after 2 -3 hard brakes" that are not on a track.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

The OE pads are Brembo HP1000 and are fine for street driving as long as you bed them in properly.
Brembo do a slightly better compound called HP2000 but AFAIK they aren't available for the M3P yet. I have them in our M3LR and they are a lot better.
There are several pads available for the M3P which are suitable for track use but I wouldn't advise anyone using their M3P exclusively on the street to fit them.
Bed in your OE pads/discs and you'll be fine.

 

[stevehifi]

So Plaid brakes burst in flames after 2 hard brakes from 130mph (totally plausible situation in daily driving if you want to have a moment of fun) and I am to believe that OEM pads are well thought and good quality? I am not saying good for Nordschleife, but I want to have brakes not mush after 2 3 hard brakes, which I think OEM pads will become very fast trying to stop this 4000lbs car. My RS5 B9 had 380mm and 6 caliper front brakes from factory for 3650lbs and after a few brakes, smokey smokey alot.

Yes the Plaid brakes suck (even on the street) i've driven one and it's incredible how Tesla managed to get away with that setup.

The OEM brakes on the model 3 perf are actually not bad for 'occasional' spirited driving on anything without hills

Only problem arises when:
-you are really driving hard on any mountain roads (ie angeles crest, hwy 9 - examples in california)
-you are doing alot of repeated stops from high speeds (70-100mph) during your spirited drive
-you're in track mode and have regen mostly off

Then the system starts to get overloaded with heat. The stock rotors don't vent very well and the stock pad is pretty small so again that heat
builds up quick.

If you plan on running stock tire size my advice is:
-change the brake fluid (Motul RBF 600)
-consider better rotors (MPP, Girodisc) that cool better
-try that first with stock pads and if you still get fade, run a more aggressive pad (Ferodo DS2500 or Endless EX90 are excellent choices) that
can operate at a higher thermal limit.

 

[gearchruncher]

-you're in track mode and have regen mostly off

Why would you do this? I've also always wondered how much this matters- max regen in track mode is 0.3G, while a good street tire can do 1.2+G braking. So if you're actually trying to go fast, you're saving maybe 25% of the energy in the brakes, which is even less in temperature.

the stock pad is pretty small so again that heat builds up quick.

Does the size of the pad have anything to do with this? The pad itself is only a pound or so of material. It doesn't represent much thermal mass, and not sure how it's surface area impacts heat "building up" in it.

-try that first with stock pads and if you still get fade, run a more aggressive pad (Ferodo DS2500 or Endless EX90 are excellent choices) that
can operate at a higher thermal limit.

Fully with you on the fluid as I've had fluid fade before pad fade on the stock brakes.
In terms of a DS2500 or EX90 being better... There's a lot of indications that the HP1000 compound that @Dangerous Fish says the stock pads are is the same as Ferodo's DS Performance. And this is Ferodo's own graph of pad performance:

Which makes sense given the Ferodo and Stock pads are basically the same price.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

Ferodo supposedly supply the HP1000 material to Brembo. I don't think it's the DSPF compound though.

Another issue worth considering when fitting track-oriented pads if you live in a cold, wet climate is pad break up if the car is left standing outside in winter for a few days at a time. We've seen pads with very few miles on them disintegrate and even separate from the backplate because of that.

 

[stevehifi]

Why would you do this? I've also always wondered how much this matters- max regen in track mode is 0.3G, while a good street tire can do 1.2+G braking. So if you're actually trying to go fast, you're saving maybe 25% of the energy in the brakes, which is even less in temperature.


Does the size of the pad have anything to do with this? The pad itself is only a pound or so of material. It doesn't represent much thermal mass, and not sure how it's surface area impacts heat "building up" in it.


Fully with you on the fluid as I've had fluid fade before pad fade on the stock brakes.
In terms of a DS2500 or EX90 being better... There's a lot of indications that the HP1000 compound that @Dangerous Fish says the stock pads are is the same as Ferodo's DS Performance. And this is Ferodo's own graph of pad performance:

View attachment 906887

Which makes sense given the Ferodo and Stock pads are basically the same price.

I don’t run any regen when I’m on the track or any serious driving. If I do with my BBK I have terrible issues with ABS cycling. Also you get better brake modulation without it.

The stock pad area is small and the pad itself is not very thick (10mm) which means it will pass a lot of heat directly to the rotor instead of dissipating it itself.

you can’t compare an oem street Brembo pad to an aftermarket track pad from Ferodo.
Price is not an indicator of performance- there are many aftermarket options that cost the same or less and perform much better.

 

[gearchruncher]

I don’t run any regen when I’m on the track or any serious driving. If I do with my BBK I have terrible issues with ABS cycling. Also you get better brake modulation without it.

That sounds like an issue with the BBK? I've never once run into this on stock brakes.

The stock pad area is small and the pad itself is not very thick (10mm) which means it will pass a lot of heat directly to the rotor instead of dissipating it itself.

You're suggesting that the pad, which is completely enclosed and surrounded by the caliper, which itself is trying to send minimal energy into the caliper to limit fluid fade, somehow dissipates energy but not into the rotor? Where is this energy going?
You WANT all your heat in your rotor. It's the thing that can dissipate, and you want your pads as cool as possible.

you can’t compare an oem street Brembo pad to an aftermarket track pad from Ferodo.

You might want to look into how intermingled the brake industry is. Ferodo makes pads for Brembo in many cases. Ferodo makes OEM pads and brake systems. Brembo makes aftermarket systems. You can't just say that because the DS2500 is "aftermarket" that it's for sure better than an OEM pad. Like I said, there's much discussion that the HP1000 just IS the DS performance formulation, and Ferodo themselves will tell you they basically perform the same. But I assume you have data on the stock pads and can show a 2500 is "better"?

there are many aftermarket options that cost the same or less and perform much better.

Care to point these out? Endless and DS2500 cost more than stock. I'm asking because I'd love to find a pad with less dust, higher temp tolerance, and no squealing for less money for my next set.

There 100% are better pads out there for the track than OEM. But all brakes are a compromise, and I'm not sure you can really claim the stock pads made that compromise for aggressive street driving poorly. Of course a stock pad isn't really a track pad, but plenty of track pad manufacturers will also tell you not to run their pads on the street, and running them on the street can actually be illegal in the EU.

 

[stevehifi]

That sounds like an issue with the BBK? I've never once run into this on stock brakes.


You're suggesting that the pad, which is completely enclosed and surrounded by the caliper, which itself is trying to send minimal energy into the caliper to limit fluid fade, somehow dissipates energy but not into the rotor? Where is this energy going?
You WANT all your heat in your rotor. It's the thing that can dissipate, and you want your pads as cool as possible.


You might want to look into how intermingled the brake industry is. Ferodo makes pads for Brembo in many cases. Ferodo makes OEM pads and brake systems. Brembo makes aftermarket systems. You can't just say that because the DS2500 is "aftermarket" that it's for sure better than an OEM pad. Like I said, there's much discussion that the HP1000 just IS the DS performance formulation, and Ferodo themselves will tell you they basically perform the same. But I assume you have data on the stock pads and can show a 2500 is "better"?


Care to point these out? Endless and DS2500 cost more than stock. I'm asking because I'd love to find a pad with less dust, higher temp tolerance, and no squealing for less money for my next set.

There 100% are better pads out there for the track than OEM. But all brakes are a compromise, and I'm not sure you can really claim the stock pads made that compromise for aggressive street driving poorly. Of course a stock pad isn't really a track pad, but plenty of track pad manufacturers will also tell you not to run their pads on the street, and running them on the street can actually be illegal in the EU.

I think you’re a little lost with my comment about the stock pads. I said the pads are relatively small and thin, so they dissipate heat to the rotor fairly quickly (especially if it’s not designed to work at higher temp) that means the heat has to go somewhere. It has to go to the caliper pistons, and the rotor. The pistons heat up the fluid and the rotor heats up and vents the heat the best it can.
So if you’re sticking with the oem setup you’re best bet is to 1) get a better brake fluid (rbf600, srf) and 2) get a better designed rotor.

You mentioned the oem pads cost $650. What I’m saying is that for that cost you can buy much better pads like ferodo (which cost about the same) or a street pad like porterfield r4s that is cheaper and does the same thing.

I’ve run ds2500, 1.11 and 3.12 on my f80 m3. I’m running pagid Rs29 right now on the model 3.
You’re not going to try and convince that the stock oem pads are better than those brands trust me man…