Model 3 Performance aftermarket brake pads

[gearchruncher]

I think you’re a little lost with my comment about the stock pads. I said the pads are relatively small and thin, so they dissipate heat to the rotor fairly quickly (especially if it’s not designed to work at higher temp) that means the heat has to go somewhere. It has to go to the caliper pistons, and the rotor. The pistons heat up the fluid and the rotor heats up and vents the heat the best it can.

The heat ALWAYS has to go somewhere. A brake pad cannot "dissipate" heat without it going somewhere. There are three ways. Radiation, Conduction, or Convection. Why do you think a larger pad is able to avoid getting as much heat into the rotor or fluid? If you slowed the car from speed X to speed Y, you put a fixed amount of energy ("heat") into the brake system. Where do you think the energy in the pad goes if not the rotor or the caliper? The pad is buried in the middle of that whole system. There's some pretty simple physics here that says the "size" of the pad doesn't matter to the heat in the system.

You’re not going to try and convince that the stock oem pads are better than those brands trust me man…

You're running $900 brake pads on the track. Your use case is not "spirited driving" on the street in an OEM car. There is no such thing as "the best pads" - only the best pads for exactly how they will be used, which with OEM cars includes things like driving at -40C and not tolerating squealing. Like I said, of course the stock pads are not track pads. RS29's are not street pads either (to the point of literally being illegal in the EU). But do you really think the DS2500's are so much better that every M3P owner should go spend $700 on brake pads right when they buy their car? That was the question in this thread.

If you actually use up your stock pads, I fully agree there's better places to spend your money than the OEM pads. But that doesn't mean the OEM pads aren't pretty good pads for OEM, of that they will completely fall apart under any kind of aggressive use.

 

[stevehifi]

The heat ALWAYS has to go somewhere. A brake pad cannot "dissipate" heat without it going somewhere. There are three ways. Radiation, Conduction, or Convection. Why do you think a larger pad is able to avoid getting as much heat into the rotor or fluid? If you slowed the car from speed X to speed Y, you put a fixed amount of energy ("heat") into the brake system. Where do you think the energy in the pad goes if not the rotor or the caliper? The pad is buried in the middle of that whole system. There's some pretty simple physics here that says the "size" of the pad doesn't matter to the heat in the system.

You're running $900 brake pads on the track. Your use case is not "spirited driving" on the street in an OEM car. There is no such thing as "the best pads" - only the best pads for exactly how they will be used, which with OEM cars includes things like driving at -40C and not tolerating squealing. Like I said, of course the stock pads are not track pads. RS29's are not street pads either (to the point of literally being illegal in the EU). But do you really think the DS2500's are so much better that every M3P owner should go spend $700 on brake pads right when they buy their car? That was the question in this thread.

If you actually use up your stock pads, I fully agree there's better places to spend your money than the OEM pads. But that doesn't mean the OEM pads aren't pretty good pads for OEM, of that they will completely fall apart under any kind of aggressive use.

read the excerpt in purple (from the link)

Braking System Heat - Stopping Power - Hands-On Tech Guide - Circle Track Magazine

Come check out all the different pictures and details about Braking System Heat and so much more. Read all about it and the great details in this issue of Circle Track Magazine!

www.motortrend.com

A bigger/thicker pad always dissipates heat better, resulting in longer pad life and better overall braking performance.

When I ran AP9668 calipers on my old track car with PFC05s, they were 25mm thick pads! Heat soak was not an issue for sure...

I paid around $750 for the Pagid set. Only $100 more than OEM pads. (there's discounts out there). Totally agree it's not ideal for the street (it's a bit noisy) and it takes a little heat to get them up operating temp. On the track or any aggressive driving they stop like a brick wall and the brakes never fade.
I have to say though, compared to what I have run in the past on street cars, it's very tolerable for every day use and if you really want to drive your car
on canyon roads.. you'll never have a problem.

The OEM pads are fine for the street use, not going to argue your point. When I bought the car I found the pedal way too soft but I think that was the issue with the flexing master cylinder. I think stock brakes are also fine for autox (i've done a couple and I would just change brake fluid and call it day).

 

[gearchruncher]

A bigger/thicker pad always dissipates heat better, resulting in longer pad life and better overall braking performance.

Yeah, they dissipate heat OUT OF THE PAD better- because a cooler pad is a good thing, such as longer pad life. But that heat goes into the rotor and caliper. It has nowhere else to go. Yet you keep saying a bigger pad reduces heat in the ROTOR. This is not logical.

The stock pad area is small and the pad itself is not very thick (10mm) which means it will pass a lot of heat directly to the rotor instead of dissipating it itself.

Totally agree it's not ideal for the street (it's a bit noisy) and it takes a little heat to get them up operating temp.

Which has been my point all along. Calling something like a Pagid RSL29 a "better pad than stock" is only true for the track use case. It's a completely unacceptable pad to ship on an OEM car meant for the street, no matter what the price.

Same is true of the R4-S which you claim is the same as stock, just cheaper. The internet is full of descriptions of that compound squealing, and even some stories of it completely failing and falling apart with a bit of hard use. The R4-S is a 35+ year old compound, which was first sold as a race pad and is now "not recommended for track use." Technology moves on, and I bet Ferodo in 2018 can make a pretty good all around pad better than Porterfield could in 1990.

 

[gearchruncher]

Ferodo supposedly supply the HP1000 material to Brembo. I don't think it's the DSPF compound though.

This thread says that HP1000 and DSPF are the same, direct from Ferodo:

YAY!!! Information from Ferodo Italy on our stock HP1000 pad compound:

"HP1000/1 is what is labeled DS Performance when sold into Brembo. A slight upgrade on that would be DS2500. Both of those two materials might be considered high performance road/light track use materials. Beyond that, from our portfolio, you would be entering true race materials territory and hence DSUNO, DS1.11 & DS3000. "

On the Ferodo website, they don't have mu vs. temp graphs for the "DS performance" pad compound (although I asked for it in my email, Ferodo declined to give it to me, although they do list mu as .46). They do have the mu vs. temp for the DS2500 (a slight upgrade from our pad) here:
Ferodo Racing Official Website - DS2500 (H)
The DS2500 is not a hardcore track pad either, as confirmed by Ferodo's classification as a "performance road/light track use" pad, as well as their comments when compared to track-focused pads: "

So yeah, it looks like our stock pads are Ferodo DS Performance pads. Which even Ferodo says are super close to DS2500's, and their own data shows as basically identical.

And for all the "all OEM pads must be overpriced trash" arguments- Even the C6 and C7 Corvettes came with DS2500's as the stock pad compound, so replacing with a DS2500 or similar pad to get "better performance" is pointless on a lot of cars (replacing because you wore out the OEM pads is different of course)

 

[Dangerous Fish]

This thread says that HP1000 and DSPF are the same, direct from Ferodo:


So yeah, it looks like our stock pads are Ferodo DS Performance pads. Which even Ferodo says are super close to DS2500's, and their own data shows as basically identical.

And for all the "all OEM pads must be overpriced trash" arguments- Even the C6 and C7 Corvettes came with DS2500's as the stock pad compound, so replacing with a DS2500 or similar pad to get "better performance" is pointless on a lot of cars (replacing because you wore out the OEM pads is different of course)

I can't say I believe that HP1000 is that similar to DS2500 based on my experience of them, but factual information is hard to come when it comes to pad compounds by so I probably won't prolong this discussion much more

 

[stevehifi]

Yeah, they dissipate heat OUT OF THE PAD better- because a cooler pad is a good thing, such as longer pad life. But that heat goes into the rotor and caliper. It has nowhere else to go. Yet you keep saying a bigger pad reduces heat in the ROTOR. This is not logical.



Which has been my point all along. Calling something like a Pagid RSL29 a "better pad than stock" is only true for the track use case. It's a completely unacceptable pad to ship on an OEM car meant for the street, no matter what the price.

Same is true of the R4-S which you claim is the same as stock, just cheaper. The internet is full of descriptions of that compound squealing, and even some stories of it completely failing and falling apart with a bit of hard use. The R4-S is a 35+ year old compound, which was first sold as a race pad and is now "not recommended for track use." Technology moves on, and I bet Ferodo in 2018 can make a pretty good all around pad better than Porterfield could in 1990.

Yes of course that heat still goes to rotor and caliper, but less heat transfer because essentially more pad material allows better heat absorption and more efficient transfer over are larger surface (like a heat sink) and keeping temperatures down. By the time the rotor and caliper see it, it won't be as extreme.

I'm not sure why you're so hell bent on recommending Tesla OEM pads like it's the greatest thing on the earth. They might be based on Ferodo and that's great, but it doesn't justify the price I feel for what it gives you. On past cars i've run all kinds of street pads Stoptech, Porterfield, Hawk, etc.. all of which cost way less then buying stuff from the dealer (with ridiculous markup). They were just as good, and actually in some cases had better attributes (less rotor wear, less dusting, etc).
Now I wouldn't replace OEM just to change to another street pad (only when they wear out of course) but if I was to run the car hard, you swap the OEM pads and run a more aggressive one for those occasions (spend the money where it counts).

 

[gearchruncher]

Then the system starts to get overloaded with heat. The stock rotors don't vent very well and the stock pad is pretty small so again that heat
builds up quick.

The stock pad area is small and the pad itself is not very thick (10mm) which means it will pass a lot of heat directly to the rotor instead of dissipating it itself.

I said the pads are relatively small and thin, so they dissipate heat to the rotor fairly quickly (especially if it’s not designed to work at higher temp) that means the heat has to go somewhere. It has to go to the caliper pistons, and the rotor. The pistons heat up the fluid and the rotor heats up and vents the heat the best it can.

From the article you linked:
The size of the caliper determines the size of the brake pad. Pads that are longer, wider, and thicker dissipate the heat better, and you will get longer pad life.

Yes of course that heat still goes to rotor and caliper, but less heat transfer because essentially more pad material allows better heat absorption and more efficient transfer over are larger surface (like a heat sink) and keeping temperatures down. By the time the rotor and caliper see it, it won't be as extreme.

Rotors stay cooler because pads absorb more energy which helps pads stay cooler as they transfer more energy over more surface area in the 4th dimension while the rotor spins by at 1300 RPM. Got it

This really isn't that hard. The heavier the whole brake system is, the less it heats up in a given braking event, because there is more thermal mass for the same input energy. Then, in the non-braking times, it dissipates this via radiation and convection. A heavier pad heats up less because it has more thermal mass, and it's assumed that there is sufficient time between braking events to dissipate it. But the reality is that all systems will become heat soaked if they don't have a way to dissipate the heat outside of the whole braking system, which is dominated by radiation and convection away from the whole car. You're not fundamentally going to reduce the ability to heat soak a braking system because you have a thicker or bigger pad- because the pad itself does basically none of the eliminating of heat from the system. That's rotor's job (and caliper a little bit).

The solution to all of this is a pad that can function at hotter temps or a rotor that dissipates more efficiently (as you called out), not moving to a larger pad.

 

[stevehifi]

Rotors stay cooler because pads absorb more energy which helps pads stay cooler as they transfer more energy over more surface area in the 4th dimension while the rotor spins by at 1300 RPM. Got it

This really isn't that hard. The heavier the whole brake system is, the less it heats up in a given braking event, because there is more thermal mass for the same input energy. Then, in the non-braking times, it dissipates this via radiation and convection. A heavier pad heats up less because it has more thermal mass, and it's assumed that there is sufficient time between braking events to dissipate it. But the reality is that all systems will become heat soaked if they don't have a way to dissipate the heat outside of the whole braking system, which is dominated by radiation and convection away from the whole car. You're not fundamentally going to reduce the ability to heat soak a braking system because you have a thicker or bigger pad- because the pad itself does basically none of the eliminating of heat from the system. That's rotor's job (and caliper a little bit).

The solution to all of this is a pad that can function at hotter temps or a rotor that dissipates more efficiently (as you called out), not moving to a larger pad.

Ok man call a truce on this one. Agree to disagree and move on

 

[fmoney]

This right here.

Stop spending 200+ on pads if you're just street driving.

The stock brake pads alone on my model 3 sleeper with regular brakes are 260 for the rear and 110 for the front. I am dying between choosing to replace them myself and having service do it all. Since I would only save 100 dollars as I just need a impact wrench. I have all my tools except that.

 

[gearchruncher]

The stock brake pads alone on my model 3 sleeper with regular brakes are 260 for the rear and 110 for the front. I am dying between choosing to replace them myself and having service do it all. Since I would only save 100 dollars as I just need a impact wrench. I have all my tools except that.

Have you actually used them up? Takes some serious milage or racing to wear them out. Checking if they are worn out basically takes the same tools to replace them.

You don't need a impact wrench to change brake pads... The only place you would even use one is to remove lug nuts, but it's not needed.

$370 for a full set from Tesla isn't a bad deal. Lots more aftermarket options for the stock brakes though, and this thread is focused on the performance calipers which have few options.

 

[fmoney]

Just for the parts its 855, Rotors brake pads and springs. at 100k miles I would also say not too bad. Just that I am still in college and trying to make more money lol.

 

[rcho8]

any one use NSR Brakes?

 

[gearchruncher]

any one use NSR Brakes?

NRS does not advertise their pads as for performance/track applications. They are designed to not corrode, but the friction material is nothing special.
They are not appropriate for track use. If you just need a good street pad, there are cheaper options.

 

[rcho8]

NRS does not advertise their pads as for performance/track applications. They are designed to not corrode, but the friction material is nothing special.
They are not appropriate for track use. If you just need a good street pad, there are cheaper options.

what street pads is good for M3P?

 

[gearchruncher]

what street pads is good for M3P?

I'll start with a question. How did you wear out your original brake pads?

 

[rcho8]

its not worn yet, I have a 18 X, within 1.5 to 2 years, the pads material was coming apart, I got 1/3 left on the front. I dont want same issue to happen with my 3, just looking for some good pads that will not come apart

 

[gearchruncher]

The stock pads are excellent Brembo pads. They're $500+ pads made by the premier braking manufacturer in the world and they're not going to come apart on you.

 

[tm1v2]

@rcho8 I've spent too much time on these forums and not come across any reports of the M3P PUP brake pads separating or failing prematurely like that. I wouldn't worry about it, at all. Anything can happen, and I haven't searched the Model 3 archives for cases, but I think that's pretty unlikely, unless there's something extremely unusual about your environment or driving known to cause it. Maybe it's a common issue for your era of Model X (I don't know) but those are different brakes and different pads.

In my limited experience, OEM Brembo pads are among the best for street use. Aftermarket pads that were a major upgrade on a car with crappy OEM brakes, were a pure downgrade on my next car with OEM Brembo's. (Closely related ICE cars from the same brand, but with completely different OEM braking systems.) It was like why even bother. Same deal when I tried some "dual use" street+track pads...they were worse than the OEM Brembo pads on the street, and nothing special on track either. I went back to OEM Brembo pads for all of my street use and was happier for it (plus dedicated track pads for track days - a specialized tool for that specific job).

The M3P Brembo pads feel different than that ICE car's Brembo pads, the M3P pads don't have the same feeling of initial bite, but I've come to appreciate that they actually work very well. At one point I was wanting more aggressive bite on the M3P. @gearchruncher pointed out the same thing to me, the OEM pads actually work quite well. As I've driven this car more and used the brakes more...I have to say he's right. They just work, in all (non-racing) circumstances, without issue. Sudden panic stop for a deer while 100% cold? No problem. Aggressively tearing up an empty back road? No problem. No issues with noise or drag or fade. They just work. That's my 2c and experience - I wouldn't toss out these OEM pads, unless you actually run into an acute problem with them.