Model 3 "Performance Brake Calipers" just red or different altogether?

[kbM3]

Agree with everything but this:


Why do that verses give 100% regen with accelerator? By putting it on brake, it decreases regen efficiency (some mechanical braking) and makes the braking performance dependant on pack SOC.


Again, in the case of full (or dead) pack or drive unit failure or need for more braking than regen provides, friction brakes are needed.
Also needed for ESC/ traction control unless they go to one motor per wheel.

I think 100% regen using the accelerator pedal only would be too much when regen is this strong. It would be equivalent to doing a panic stop every time you let off the accelerator. Maybe it will be configurable though?

Activating regen from the brake pedal means using regen first and friction brakes later, so it shouldn’t decrease efficiency. The problem seems to be that it affects brake feel and that it is more complex,

 

[Wooloomooloo]

I mean, it factually does not, but let's see why you think so.

You seem more interested in being ‘right’ than reaching a common understanding of why some drivers think this is important, or simply just makes sense. That’s fine but it makes conversing much less enjoyable than it could be.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

For what it’s worth I edited my order from a standard AWD to the Performance with the upgraded package on the basis of “cause I wanted to”. Though it’s not an incredibly expensive car, it’s not particularly cheap either, may as well do it up.

Those are pretty much my thoughts too. I expect to keep this car pretty much as long as possible so I thought I might as well get the best version of it I can.

 

[Knightshade]

You seem more interested in being ‘right’ than reaching a common understanding of why some drivers think this is important, or simply just makes sense.

On the contrary- I'm primarily interested in correcting some misunderstandings that folks seem to be using to make financial decisions by presenting the actual facts regarding what braking upgrades can, and can't do- and when they do, or don't, make any measurable difference.

This way folks can make those decisions based on actual facts rather than myths they've heard repeated elsewhere (and if you don't think a LOT of people mistakenly think "big brakes" help in street use you haven't been on many car forums ).

Likewise when someone has suggested my facts are inaccurate I've been more than happy to ask them for evidence of it, and perfectly willing to change my mind if they presented some confirming the claim.....

So far every time I've done that they haven't put any forward here though- which suggests they looked into what I was saying a bit closer and realized it was correct- and hopefully that learning informed their choices going forward.


Anyway there's certainly some subjective reasons to get the 5k upgrade... some folks love the look of bigger wheels even if they don't objectively improve the car for example- or heck if you want to pay 5k for the "look" of big rotors, knowing they won't stop you any shorter in normal use, by all means get what you like.

Likewise if someone is intending to track the car, a brake upgrade would be very useful (also useful- Tesla clarifying if you NEED the 5k package to get one... I think you do, but it's not at all clear either way)

The real issue was the folks who insisted things like bigger brakes are a "safety" requirement for "more powerful" cars in street use... which is nonsensical of course. In street use they do nothing to stop shorter or make you safer regardless of the power the car has.

 

[Shizzrock]

On the contrary- I'm primarily interested in correcting some misunderstandings that folks seem to be using to make financial decisions by presenting the actual facts regarding what braking upgrades can, and can't do- and when they do, or don't, make any measurable difference.

This way folks can make those decisions based on actual facts rather than myths they've heard repeated elsewhere (and if you don't think a LOT of people mistakenly think "big brakes" help in street use you haven't been on many car forums ).

Likewise when someone has suggested my facts are inaccurate I've been more than happy to ask them for evidence of it, and perfectly willing to change my mind if they presented some confirming the claim.....

So far every time I've done that they haven't put any forward here though- which suggests they looked into what I was saying a bit closer and realized it was correct- and hopefully that learning informed their choices going forward.


Anyway there's certainly some subjective reasons to get the 5k upgrade... some folks love the look of bigger wheels even if they don't objectively improve the car for example- or heck if you want to pay 5k for the "look" of big rotors, knowing they won't stop you any shorter in normal use, by all means get what you like.

Likewise if someone is intending to track the car, a brake upgrade would be very useful (also useful- Tesla clarifying if you NEED the 5k package to get one... I think you do, but it's not at all clear either way)

The real issue was the folks who insisted things like bigger brakes are a "safety" requirement for "more powerful" cars in street use... which is nonsensical of course. In street use they do nothing to stop shorter or make you safer regardless of the power the car has.

I think the frustration comes from the fact that what you say is repeated like a mantra yet the fact remains that initial braking tests of the model 3 have been lacklustre. Sure, better tires will improve stopping distance. But people are especially concerned about the P braking system I suspect because of the lacklustre performance of the RWD version. Given that we don't have your expertise regarding physics, perhaps instead of simply saying the brakes are irrelevant in normal driving you could explain why other car manufacturers have been able to have stopping distances far shorter than the 3. A new Audi S4 stops in 104 feet where a model 3 with 19s and summer tires has been tested at 128 feet. Perhaps the Tesla OEM summers also have less rolling resistance which adds to the stopping distance, but a 24 foot distance between the 3 and a competitor is something worth exploring. The tires simply cannot be the only factor. A new BMW M3 will stop in 100 feet.

 

[Knightshade]

I think the frustration comes from the fact that what you say is repeated like a mantra yet the fact remains that initial braking tests of the model 3 have been lacklustre.

Right. Because the tires are.

And it didn't help the initial ABS programming was flawed.... since fixed.

Once those are corrected the stopping distance is perfectly normal for the size/class of the car.

if I've had to repeat those facts it's because people keep failing to accept that they are facts

Sure, better tires will improve stopping distance.

On a properly working car that's all that can improve stopping distance.

If you're still unclear on that being a fact, please, go read the Pulp Friction link provided earlier- it provides detailed explanations of why that's true- including all the relevant math and physics.

But people are especially concerned about the P braking system I suspect because of the lacklustre performance of the RWD version.

For non-track people the only way that's true is if they don't understand how brakes work and what they can and can't actually impact in operation of the vehicle. I'd encourage those folks to read that article too.

For track people, well, we already have RWD ones with mild brake upgrades doing quite well at places like Laguna Seca, so the factory upgraded brakes should be fine there... it won't make any difference off the track- As Elon Musk himself explicitly stated though.... but for those folks planning to track any car a brake upgrade is a good idea as I've said from the start. Being a "performance" model doesn't change that either way.

Given that we don't have your expertise regarding physics, perhaps instead of simply saying the brakes are irrelevant in normal driving you could explain why other car manufacturers have been able to have stopping distances far shorter than the 3.

I did.

Better tires.

A new Audi S4 stops in 104 feet where a model 3 with 19s and summer tires has been tested at 128 feet. Perhaps the Tesla OEM summers also have less rolling resistance which adds to the stopping distance

So first of all- those aren't summer tires on the Model 3.

The factory 19s come with all seasons. slightly better ones than the 18s come with, hence 5 feet shorter stopping distance when tested by the same people.

So again you appear to be starting from incorrect information.

Put good summers on there- you'll stop a lot shorter. Promise.

The tires simply cannot be the only factor.

Yes, they can. They are. (barring programming errors like the ABS repeat test issue- which bigger rotors also don't fix)

Want more proof?

Edmunds tested summer vs winter vs all seasons a while back (for other reasons- but the test is excellent to prove this point too).

In dry warm conditions there was a difference of 35 feet stopping from 60 between the best and worse performing tire.

In dry wet conditions there as a difference of 57 feet stopping from 60 between the best and worse performing tire.

Both larger differences than with the Audi you cite.

And those tests were all on the same car with the same wheels and the same brakes.

NOTHING changed except the tire.


Again- the brakes don't stop the car. The tires do.

Please- go read Pulp Friction. It addresses every misconception you seem to have, in considerable detail, and in a very accessible way.

 

[mongo]

Right. Because the tires are.

And it didn't help the initial ABS programming was flawed.... since fixed.

Once those are corrected the stopping distance is perfectly normal for the size/class of the car.

if I've had to repeat those facts it's because people keep failing to accept that they are facts



On a properly working car that's all that can improve stopping distance.

If you're still unclear on that being a fact, please, go read the Pulp Friction link provided earlier- it provides detailed explanations of why that's true- including all the relevant math and physics.




For non-track people the only way that's true is if they don't understand how brakes work and what they can and can't actually impact in operation of the vehicle. I'd encourage those folks to read that article too.

For track people, well, we already have RWD ones with mild brake upgrades doing quite well at places like Laguna Seca, so the factory upgraded brakes should be fine there... it won't make any difference off the track- As Elon Musk himself explicitly stated though.... but for those folks planning to track any car a brake upgrade is a good idea as I've said from the start. Being a "performance" model doesn't change that either way.





I did.

Better tires.



So first of all- those aren't summer tires on the Model 3.

The factory 19s come with all seasons. slightly better ones than the 18s come with, hence 5 feet shorter stopping distance when tested by the same people.

So again you appear to be starting from incorrect information.

Put good summers on there- you'll stop a lot shorter. Promise.




Yes, they can. They are. (barring programming errors like the ABS repeat test issue- which bigger rotors also don't fix)

Want more proof?

Edmunds tested summer vs winter vs all seasons a while back (for other reasons- but the test is excellent to prove this point too).

In dry warm conditions there was a difference of 35 feet stopping from 60 between the best and worse performing tire.

In dry wet conditions there as a difference of 57 feet stopping from 60 between the best and worse performing tire.

Both larger differences than with the Audi you cite.

And those tests were all on the same car with the same wheels and the same brakes.

NOTHING changed except the tire.


Again- the brakes don't stop the car. The tires do.

Please- go read Pulp Friction. It addresses every misconception you seem to have, in considerable detail, and in a very accessible way.

@Shizzrock

If I might summarize/ paraphrase.
Given a driver that can exert sufficient brake pedal force to lock the wheels and a perfect ABS system, the only differences in braking distance on an initial event will be due to how much force is required to lock the wheels. That value is only impacted by the tires. (The brakes can write checks the tires can't cash)

In other cases such as multiple brake events, or possibly (going on a limb here) a single event from max speed, performance brakes will give better results (less fade).

 

[eigenv1]

Tesla Tires (stock 18, 19, 20, then Michelin Pilot Sport 4 S in 235/18” and 235/19” sizes). Columns are brand, size, tread and speed ratings, tread depth and tire width. Second part is some info on Tesla stock wheels.


PRIMACY MXM4 235/45R18 500A A 8/32” 25 lbs 7.8”


CONTINENTAL PROCONTACT RX 235/40R19 400A A 9/32” 23 lbs 8.2”


MICHELIN PILOT SPORT 4S 235/35ZR20 500AA A 9/32” 24 lbs 8.8”


MICHELIN PILOT SPORT 4S 235/45ZR18 300 AA A 9.5/32” 23.5 lbs 7.6”


MICHELIN PILOT SPORT 4S 235/40ZR19 300 AA A 9.5/32” 23 lbs 8.4”


Wheel Weights Tesla Stock


18X8.5” 21.6 lbs (w/o covers) and 23 lbs (with covers)


19X8.5" ~25 lbs (both 25 and 29.5 lbs reported by Tsportline)


20X8.5” ~30 - 35 lbs (estimates from Tsportline_

 

[Garlan Garner]

If you want bigger rotors on the front ….Here ya go.

Standard Calipers will fit.

MPP Page Mill 365mm Big Brake Kit

 

[Odiemac]

I’m sure things will become more clear as we get closer to P models being delivered, but I suspect the 20” package on the M3P is truly a different caliper and rotor setup than the base 18” brake, because the stock Model 3 front caliper is already a pretty beefy Brembo design shared with the Musang GT500 and WRX STI, and barely fits in the 18” wheel. I doubt they’d design two complerlty new caliper designs for different configs of the M3P.

As for the argument about faster cars needing bigger brakes, that’s definitely the case. Why? Because you can build more speed on the straights on your favorite mountain road, and you have it dissipate that heat before the corner. I believe Sasha at MPP boiled his brakes on a mountain road in a Model 3 LR in the Bay Area, and adding 200HP or so would boil them even faster if you’re driving quickly.

 

[juanmedina]

Someone brought up a good point on Reddit. When the car was 78k you could choose either the 18" wheels or the 20" and I imagine for 78k we had the assumption that the only difference between the two were the wheels.

 

[SA4444462]

One edge case, just because I'm pedantic.
In the case of an undersized caliber piston bore, oversized master cylinder bore, or a driver with a weak braking leg force such that the system does not lock the wheels. Using a larger rotor that places the caliper further out from the center of the wheel will improve braking distance via increased lever arm for the clamping force to work with.

It's not just stopping distance. The Audi S4 brakes are the only ones i haven't warped the rotors. I'm very hard on brakes. Larger rotors and calipers will dissipate heat better and much less chance of the rotors warping. This is more important than stopping a few feet shorter with better tires. Also how the petal and brakes feel when initially engaging them. I had to replace the rotors twice on my 4Runner (and now warped again), at least 4 times on my Saab 900T Conv and on countless other cars. I'm hardest on the S4's brakes and never warped. Again, if i find out the Performance Package includes better Calipers (not just red color), i'll try changing back to the 5k package.

 

[Knightshade]

It's not just stopping distance. The Audi S4 brakes are the only ones i haven't warped the rotors. I'm very hard on brakes. Larger rotors and calipers will dissipate heat better and much less chance of the rotors warping.

And here we have another popular brake myth!

barring improper installation rotors don't "warp"

Anybody who tells you you have warped rotors (again assuming they were installed right) doesn't know how brakes work.


Here's Stoptech, a major brake manufacturer who would have a pretty strong financial interest in convincing you rotors warp so you buy new ones from them, telling you it's a myth, and explaining in detail what is actually happening when JimBob at Brakes-R-Us is telling you they 'warped'

Not only does he explain what's actually happening, he explains how to avoid/prevent/fix it too.

The fact you do it to virtually all your cars is further evidence it's a driver problem, not a rotor problem.


-Warped- Brake Disc and Other Myths

The author is Caroll Smith- who was a lot harder on brakes than anybody in here is ever likely to be- he spent decades as a professional race car driver and engineer, whose resume includes working with Caroll Shelby and Ford on the GT40 race car- he'd go on to consult with Ferrari and numerous other racing teams.[/QUOTE]

 

[SA4444462]

And here we have another popular brake myth!

barring improper installation rotors don't "warp"

Anybody who tells you you have warped rotors (again assuming they were installed right) doesn't know how brakes work.


Here's Stoptech, a major brake manufacturer who would have a pretty strong financial interest in convincing you rotors warp so you buy new ones from them, telling you it's a myth, and explaining in detail what is actually happening when JimBob at Brakes-R-Us is telling you they 'warped'

Not only does he explain what's actually happening, he explains how to avoid/prevent/fix it too.

The fact you do it to virtually all your cars is further evidence it's a driver problem, not a rotor problem.


-Warped- Brake Disc and Other Myths

The author is Caroll Smith- who was a lot harder on brakes than anybody in here is ever likely to be- he spent decades as a professional race car driver and engineer, whose resume includes working with Caroll Shelby and Ford on the GT40 race car- he'd go on to consult with Ferrari and numerous other racing teams.

[/QUOTE]

Let's assume I'm a crappy driver and have no idea what warped brakes are and gods gift to turning brakes into feeling like crap, who cares. What we all care about is how the brakes on the Model 3 AWD Performance work. 133' or 128 with 20" Michelin summer tires isn't impressive and a disappointment. This discussion is "Model 3 Performance Brake Calipers" just red or different altogether", and all i care about. Upgraded brake rotors and calipers should feel better when stepping on the brake petal, versus current brakes on the RWD car (if the AWD Performance model has better brakes). And shitty drivers like me that destroy brakes would probably have less of a chance destroying a better brake system. Think my experience with my S4 versus every other car I own and have owned prove as such. So, hope the AWD Performance model has better brakes then the RWD does and i don't screw them up with my horrible driving skills.

 

[Knightshade]

Let's assume I'm a crappy driver and have no idea what warped brakes are and gods gift to turning brakes into feeling like crap, who cares.

Well, anyone who wanted to understand what's actually happening, or how to stop ruining their brakes, would care... if you don't wish to do either though that's entirely your choice.

What we all care about is how the brakes on the Model 3 AWD Performance work.

exactly the same as the regular ones, outside of a race track, or the chase scene from a Bourne movie. Even Elon said as much.

133' or 128 with 20" Michelin summer tires isn't impressive and a disappointment.

it also isn't the actual tested stopping distance with the summer tires.

Those numbers were on the crap all seasons from the factory on the 18s and 19s respectively.

But as (nearly everyone by now) knows- "better brakes" wouldn't change those numbers anyway, since the brakes don't stop the car, the tires do.

This discussion is "Model 3 Performance Brake Calipers" just red or different altogether", and all i care about. Upgraded brake rotors and calipers should feel better when stepping on the brake petal, versus current brakes on the RWD car (if the AWD Performance model has better brakes).

"feel" is a completely subjective measurement though. So not really sure how you'd even judge or compare that.

Stopping distance on the other hand is an objective measurement. That isn't changed by the difference in brakes, but by differences in tires (and road surface).

And shitty drivers like me that destroy brakes would probably have less of a chance destroying a better brake system.

Probably not.

But to understand why you'd need to actually read, and understand, the link I posted, which explains why you keep destroying brakes and why "bigger brakes" isn't a fix for it.

Bonus- you'd actually learn how to stop destroying brakes too.

Think my experience with my S4 versus every other car I own and have owned prove as such.

It really isn't. Though it's entirely possible it's masking it better than other systems have. Could be other things too (for example I expect the tires on your 4Runner are very different from those on your S4)

The fact it's happening on nearly every car you've driven, but obviously doesn't happen to most drivers of such cars, suggests the problem is the driver, not the braking system. Again the previously provided link will explain why it happens and how to prevent it in the future.

 

[SA4444462]

Well, anyone who wanted to understand what's actually happening, or how to stop ruining their brakes, would care... if you don't wish to do either though that's entirely your choice.




exactly the same as the regular ones, outside of a race track, or the chase scene from a Bourne movie. Even Elon said as much.




it also isn't the actual tested stopping distance with the summer tires.

Those numbers were on the crap all seasons from the factory on the 18s and 19s respectively.

But as (nearly everyone by now) knows- "better brakes" wouldn't change those numbers anyway, since the brakes don't stop the car, the tires do.





"feel" is a completely subjective measurement though. So not really sure how you'd even judge or compare that.

Stopping distance on the other hand is an objective measurement. That isn't changed by the difference in brakes, but by differences in tires (and road surface).




Probably not.

But to understand why you'd need to actually read, and understand, the link I posted, which explains why you keep destroying brakes and why "bigger brakes" isn't a fix for it.

Bonus- you'd actually learn how to stop destroying brakes too.




It really isn't. Though it's entirely possible it's masking it better than other systems have. Could be other things too (for example I expect the tires on your 4Runner are very different from those on your S4)

The fact it's happening on nearly every car you've driven, but obviously doesn't happen to most drivers of such cars, suggests the problem is the driver, not the braking system. Again the previously provided link will explain why it happens and how to prevent it in the future.

The S4 brakes are heaven. Quality of brakes make a huge difference. Like a said a few post back; I'm very hard on brakes and admit i screw them up. Would rather have a car with great brakes then completely change my driving habits. Been told the 4Runner and Saab brakes are prone to issues by a few shops. Doesn't mean it's not my driving habits. What i do know is my S4 has huge thick rotors and excellent calipers that are much larger than my other cars. when i step on the brake petal, they feel very strong compared to every other car i own and owned. Hopefully the Model 3 is more like my S4.

 

[Garlan Garner]

As for the argument about faster cars needing bigger brakes, that’s definitely the case. Why? Because you can build more speed on the straights on your favorite mountain road, and you have it dissipate that heat before the corner. I believe Sasha at MPP boiled his brakes on a mountain road in a Model 3 LR in the Bay Area, and adding 200HP or so would boil them even faster if you’re driving quickly.

Is there a difference in the brakes between the Model S versions?

 

[Odiemac]

Is there a difference in the brakes between the Model S versions?

No, and actually the Model 3 and Model S share the same basic front caliper design, and have pads that are compatible with each other. The rear caliper design differs, however.

So the M3P w/20” wheels will likely have one of Tesla’s first bespoke set of calipers. Still probably designed by Brembo, but not off-the-shelf like the current caliper.

 

[Garlan Garner]

No, and actually the Model 3 and Model S share the same basic front caliper design, and have pads that are compatible with each other. The rear caliper design differs, however.

So the M3P w/20” wheels will likely have one of Tesla’s first bespoke set of calipers. Still probably designed by Brembo, but not off-the-shelf like the current caliper.

Why wouldn't tesla put bigger brakes on the fastest Model S cars?

Those cars are obviously not stopping properly. Right?

 

[Odiemac]

Why wouldn't tesla put bigger brakes on the fastest Model S cars?

No idea, but I speculate that they proritzed other things because they were a much smaller company when they designed Model S, and they knew most drivers wouldn’t be doing a lot of canyon carving or track days in the car. But if they re-refresh or re-design the Model S I expect the Performance version to have beefier brakes than the current gen.