Model 3 Performance Waiting Room

[delta0]

The data is based on multiple logs from ScanMyTesla.
The data from the Panasonic models has been established over a long period of time.
The data for the LG M50 battery is taken from the MYP and MYLR/M3LR, over what period of time I don't know but the chart was posted end of March....now this is not to say there definitely won't be some improvements in the M3P BMS discharge profile, but I don't expect there will be vs the same battery in the MYP.

Twice the internal resistance of the Panasonic batteries is the primary limiter in the maximum discharge power of the LG M50 cells. It's the same reason why the LG M50 battery packs can't sustain 250KW supercharging on a V3 supercharger for more than a few seconds, unlike the panasonic's which will flat line (hold) charging at the 250kw up until about 20% SOC, the LG drop's quickly as they will otherwise internally overheat - and this is after the recent update to improve charging performance on the LG M50 pack.

Unless there is some new version of the M50 cells being used in the M3P packs - then they will have the same power limitations of the MYP batteries.

The more powerful motors look to not being fully (if at all) utilised - but Tesla have a habit of their technology not being synchronised....like more powerful motors than the battery being used at the time can power.....only later being utilised when better battery technology comes out. I suspect improvements into the motor power are in preparation to the transition to the 4680 cells on the MY and later M3. Tesla are also going to drop the older rear motors, rather than have one type for the MYP and another for the M3P - just for manufacturing cost of scale reasons.

If the MYP uses the same battery then how did they get the power figure?

 

[blower]

If the MYP uses the same battery then how did they get the power figure?

Not quite sure what you mean there......


MYP and MYLR use exact same LG M50 battery with same maximum discharge capability.....only difference is total power output is limited by the ECU at the motor end.

Power figure for the Panasonics is taken from the M3P - of which, up until now, all European M3P's have had the panasonic battery.

Power figures themselves are taken from an OBD reading via ScanMyTesla (not from any form of dyno) - but the data is accurate, and more importantly, comparable.

 

[delta0]

Not quite sure what you mean there......


MYP and MYLR use exact same LG M50 battery with same maximum discharge capability.....only difference is total power output is limited by the ECU at the motor end.

Power figure for the Panasonics is taken from the M3P - of which, up until now, all European M3P's have had the panasonic battery.

Power figures themselves are taken from an OBD reading via ScanMyTesla (not from any form of dyno) - but the data is accurate, and more importantly, comparable.

The power output for the MYP is higher than the M3P but the MYP uses a 5L battery.

 

[blower]

The power output for the MYP is higher than the M3P but the MYP uses a 5L battery.

The motor capable power output is higher - but the actual power output ls is not.......that's the thing - motor power means nothing if the battery is incapable of supplying that power.

The US Model Y's have the Panasonic battery - they get power outputs higher than the M3P and this is also seen in the battery discharge data, and accordingly they get much faster 1/4 mile times than the European Model Y's.

You notice that Tesla themselves don't quote power output in their spec's, no official horsepower numbers - this is probably why, as the real power output truly depends on what battery you have and the usual battery factors (SOC, temperature)

 

[delta0]

The motor power output is higher - but the actual power output to the wheels is not.......that's the thing - motor power means nothing if the battery is incapable of supplying that power.

The US Model Y's have the Panasonic battery - they get power outputs higher than the M3P and this is also seen in the battery discharge data, and accordingly they get much faster 1/4 mile times than the European Model Y's.

You notice that Tesla themselves don't quote power output in their spec's, no official horsepower numbers - this is probably why, as the real power output truly depends on what battery you have and the usual battery factors (SOC, temperature)

Until we actually see an M3P with one and have the latest optimised battery figures (previous battery iterations were not optimised on release either) then we can’t be certain about anything.

 

[blower]

Until we actually see an M3P with one and have the latest optimised battery figures (previous battery iterations were not optimised on release either) then we can’t be certain about anything.

Of course, there is no certainty until someone starts testing them - but it is not looking good!

Especially since Tesla were quite happy to neuter the Model Y performance for Europe vs the US models with these weak ass LG batteries.
If it's the same battery and same motors (which it really does look to be) - then it will be the same power output curve.

 

[delta0]

Of course, there is no certainty until someone starts testing them - but it is not looking good!

Especially since Tesla were quite happy to neuter the Model Y performance for Europe vs the US models with these weak ass LG batteries.

They have different acceleration? If it was reduced then it would have been observed in the numbers. I haven’t looked but that would be the most obvious place to start.

 

[blower]

They have different acceleration? If it was reduced then it would have been observed in the numbers. I haven’t looked but that would be the most obvious place to start.

Same official acceleration - but as previously stated it looks like that will only be achievable at 100% SOC with a very hot battery, and the acceleration will fall off rapidly as the SOC drops even just 10-20%, where as the Panasonic's were capable of the stated 0-60mph all the way down to ~70% SOC (as the batteries have so much more headroom above the power limit of the motor).

For the Model Y's - the higher power output is sustained more above 60mph on the US models and also get faster than official 0-60mph in the real world than the european models.

 

[delta0]

Same official acceleration - but as previously stated it looks like that will only be achievable at 100% SOC with a very hot battery, and the acceleration will fall off rapidly as the SOC drops even just 10-20%, where as the Panasonic's were capable of the stated 0-60mph all the way down to ~70% SOC (as the batteries have so much more headroom above the power limit of the motor).

For the Model Y's - the higher power output is sustained more above 60mph on the US models and also get faster than official 0-60mph in the real world than the european models.

The 5L isn’t able to supply the full amount that the MYP needs even at full SoC according to that chart though (MYP peak power is 35kW above the max the 5L can provide). So you would see a difference in the acceleration. I’m digging through videos on YouTube for both US and European acceleration tests and I’m not seeing any differences. This makes me even more sceptical about the data in that chart.

 

[blower]

The 5L isn’t able to supply the full amount that the MYP needs even at full SoC according to that chart though (MYP peak power is 35kW above the max the 5L can provide). So you would see a difference in the acceleration. I’m digging through videos on YouTube for both US and European acceleration tests and I’m not seeing any differences. This makes me even more sceptical about the data in that chart.

Exactly - it isn't able to supply the full power that the motors are capable of and doesn't.

There is a difference in acceleration, the 2021 US MYP with the higher output motors (same as in European models) are faster - 1/4 mile and real world acceleration albeit not by huge amounts as it looks like they are not fully utilising them even with the panasonic batteries (power output seems to be capped at around 430kw, and then not for very long during a pull).

European:

1/4 mile 12.22 - this is with ~90% SOC

US:

1/4 mile 12.06....looks to be similar SOC

Not much in it on that example, but guy does say his best was 11.98 and i've seen a few sub 12 seconds. on US videos.

What is needed is a comparison of the 2 models (LG vs Panasonic) with SOC @ 70% - that's where I believe you will see a very big difference as the panasonic will still be putting out max power (430KW capped) and the LG will be down a lot at that point.

 

[delta0]

Exactly - it isn't able to supply the full power that the motors are capable of and doesn't.

There is a difference in acceleration, the 2021 US MYP with the higher output motors (same as in European models) are faster - 1/4 mile and real world acceleration albeit not by huge amounts as it looks like they are not fully utilising them even with the panasonic batteries (power output seems to be capped at around 430kw, and then not for very long during a pull).

European:

1/4 mile 12.22 - this is with ~90% SOC

US:

1/4 mile 12.06....looks to be similar SOC

Not much in it on that example, but guy does say his best was 11.98 and i've seen a few sub 12 seconds. on US videos.

What is needed is a comparison of the 2 models (LG vs Panasonic) with SOC @ 70% - that's where I believe you will see a very big difference as the panasonic will still be putting out max power (430KW capped) and the LG will be down a lot at that point.

I think we need to see some more clear evidence. At the moment it’s not clear enough. If we disregard we ever saw that chart then no one would have any reason to doubt they are different. Even at 100% SoC there should be a very clear difference. Bear in mind the MYP line is hiding behind the 3L so the battery is not sitting at a capped level.

 

[sc20]

It's funny because back in February there were people delaying their orders (myself included) because they did not want the old Panasonic variant and wanted the new LG one since it came with the MYP motor. We were voluntarily choosing a car with lower range (340mi) over one with higher range (352mi) because we thought the new variant was superior.

UK 2022 Orders to Delivery inc the shipping thread for posts with no shipping news

Delivery estimated May 29th - June 26th now. If it’s any later than that, I’m screwed! Has your delivery estimate changed too? It only went from May to May 8th to June 5th so hopefully it doesn’t change again

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[blower]

I think we need to see some more clear evidence. At the moment it’s not clear enough. If we disregard we ever saw that chart then no one would have any reason to doubt they are different. Even at 100% SoC there should be a very clear difference. Bear in mind the MYP line is hiding behind the 3L so the battery is not sitting at a capped level.

I agree the evidence is not clear cut at the moment and as you say without that chart it would be a lot of conjecture based on not enough real world data / comparisons.

Someone needs to get an M3P with the LG battery when (if) they come out and do some dragy's at 90%, 80%, 70% etc - as i know the Pan 3L M3P have very little variation on the 0-60 at any of those SOC's

I have a Dragy, and if I do keep my order it will be one of the first things i'd be doing,

 

[delta0]

I agree the evidence is not clear cut at the moment and as you say without that chart it would be a lot of conjecture based on not enough real world data / comparisons.

Someone needs to get an M3P with the LG battery when (if) they come out and do some dragy's at 90%, 80%, 70% etc - as i know the Pan 3L M3P have very little variation on the 0-60 at any of those SOC's

I have a Dragy, and if I do keep my order it will be one of the first things i'd be doing,

This is exactly what needs to be done. I’ve got an M3P coming as well so will be checking out which battery it is and will hopefully get some numbers.

 

[blower]

It's funny because back in February there were people delaying their orders (myself included) because they did not want the old Panasonic variant and wanted the new LG one since it came with the MYP motor. We were voluntarily choosing a car with lower range (340mi) over one with higher range (352mi) because we thought the new variant was superior.

UK 2022 Orders to Delivery inc the shipping thread for posts with no shipping news

Delivery estimated May 29th - June 26th now. If it’s any later than that, I’m screwed! Has your delivery estimate changed too? It only went from May to May 8th to June 5th so hopefully it doesn’t change again

teslamotorsclub.com

Aye, the irony of that was not lost on me! .....there was a lot of concern over the low temperature performance with the 2021 M3 and its heat pump and the panasonics, but the issue was fixed in an update.

That is one area the LG is superior to the panasonic < 30% SOC when cold - but we are talking in very cold climates here and with low SOC, rather than your average UK weather.

 

[MrT3]

Aye, the irony of that was not lost on me! .....there was a lot of concern over the low temperature performance with the 2021 M3 and its heat pump and the panasonics, but the issue was fixed in an update.

That is one area the LG is superior to the panasonic < 30% SOC when cold - but we are talking in very cold climates here and with low SOC, rather than your average UK weather.

Yes, unlike a year ago there was little to no chatter this winter about poor 2021 M3P cold weather performance. It is essentially fixed.

 

[kevincredible]

With the UK mild and cold weather, is it an absolute must to swap the summer P Zero tires? I was just hoping to do short trips to the supermarket with the summers when the temperature is about 3 degrees C.

 

[blower]

With the UK mild and cold weather, is it an absolute must to swap the summer P Zero tires? I was just hoping to do short trips to the supermarket with the summers when the temperature is about 3 degrees C.

Nah, you'll be fine - just don't go out in the snow but 3c for a good summer tyre is nothing to be thinking about necessitating a swap to all season / winters.

 

[blower]

Not that i want to keep banging on about this whole LG vs Panasonic battery, but a direct measurement of a MYP German (Gigafactory Berlin, No.15 to be precise) that's just been delivered show's the power output on the LG battery is limited to 416KW - despite this MYP having 480KW motors

The guy who produced the first chart was the one who tested this particular no. 15 production model, he logged it with the owner in the car, and has this to say (translated from German):

• The drivetrain (DU CAT 3) has significantly more potential than the battery can deliver even under ideal conditions (480kW vs. 416kW). The usable power limit set by Tesla is probably identical to the US model and in the range of 450kW. Of course, this has little relevance, since the battery reaches neither the power limit, nor the motor limit, not even momentarily.
• Due to the limitation of the battery, the available maximum power decreases continuously from the first metre as SOC drops. In the Model 3 Performance (Panasonic 3L), the maximum power of the battery (ideal) is up to approx. 75-70% SoC above the power limit of the vehicle. The available maximum power is therefore continuously available in the upper 25-30% SoC and only decreases afterwards.
• Peak Bat Power was 411kW @ 98% SOC. A Model 3 Performance 2021 (DU CAT 1) with the Panasonic 3L comes to 433kW under comparable conditions. A US Model Y Performance with the Panasonic battery should ideally be able to send about 40kW more power to the motors than the EU model with LG battery.
• From about 70-80% SoC there is no longer any performance advantage to the MYLR + Boost.
• The maximum engine power front/rear was correspondingly lower with 177kW/248kW. For the Model 3 Performance 2021, it is more like 200kW/268kW).
• As with all Dual Motor Tesla Model 3/Y, the peak power is reached in the range of 80-90km/h and then degrades again.
• As with all Dual Motor Tesla Model 3/Y, the peak power of the two engines is not achieved simultaneously, but one after the other. The rear engine reaches its peak at 70km/h, the front at about 85km/h.
• Whether the 0-100 values of the website (minus 1ft roll-out) are so manageable with the LG battery is questionable. A dragy measurement was unfortunately not possible, because this time the device simply did not manage a stable satellite connection in the interior. With two people and cold tires, however, any result would have been irrelevant.

He's pretty much confirmed everything I was saying with regards to the power limit of the LG battery and the power output falling for every % your SOC drops from 100. It's even more stark in the MYP due to the motors being capable of 480KW and the battery only capable of 416KW at 100% SOC.

In short, the newer more powerful motor in this MYP, looks to offer absolutely nothing over the last one - as it's entirely battery limited right from a full charge.

If this is the same battery and motor combo that's going in the Q2 M3P - then it will act the same, I can't see why it would be any different....I also suspect that it may not even be possible to obtain the quoted 3.1s (without rollout) on the 0-60 as the Pan 3L models can only just about do it and this LG battery output is down on them from the get go, and falling further as you get going!.....in which case Tesla would need to answer some awkward questions.

Of course, we need to see a Dragy of the final M3P to confirm for sure, there still might be something missing with this battery data as its only from one source....an example of where this may not be the full picture is how fast is the power falling from peak output compared to the Pan 3L? - it might be that the BMS of the LG is configured to put out a higher sustained output, after the initial burst....i.e. greater power than the Pan configuration at higher speeds, such that the average power output over a long pull (and hence 0-60 and 1/4mile times) are very similar.

A Dragy of that MYP would have been nice, at least it would be one more confirming (or not) that it is down on the US models as I have only found that 1 youtube video of an EU MYP being tested with a Dragy.

 

[Waser]

My delivery date has been pushed back to Aug:

user	exterior	interior	autopilot	collection	order date	delivery estimate
M3P75	blue	black			10/02/2022	30/05/2022 - 27/06/2022
delta0	silver	black	AP	Bluewater	14/02/2022	30/05/2022 - 27/06/2022
sc20	white	white	AP	Southampton	Mid Feb	30/05/2022 - 27/06/2022
craigp	white	white	AP	Birmingham	20/02/2022	20/06/2022 - 30/06/2022
Kevmar123	red	black			23/02/2022	31/05/2022 - 28/06/2022
seadog	white	black			15/03/2022	'May 2022'
thestarkfactor	blue	white	EAP	Glasgow	16/03/2022	'June 2022'
kevincredible	black	white			17/03/2022	21/06/2022 - 30/06/2022
WhosAsking	blue	black	AP	Southampton	22/03/2022	'May 2022'
trouter	silver	black			26/03/2022	'May 2022'
MThreeOwner	white	white	FSD	Southampton	28/03/2022	'May 2022'
FrancoM82	white	white		Southampton	09/04/2022	'August 2022'
Waser	black	white	AP	Bluewater	18/04/2022	'August 2022'