Model 3 SR+ LFP Battery Range, Degradation, etc Discussion

[Schmidlack]

Newbie here and not engaged in the current discussion. My question is related to this thread though and is very basic.

LFP battery will degrade slower than NCA. Thus in say, five years, the LFP equipped car could have greater range than the NCA and the gap will become greater the longer you go. Isn't the LFP the "million mile battery"?

 

[theothertom]

LFP battery will degrade slower than NCA. Thus in say, five years, the LFP equipped car could have greater range than the NCA

It has to do with how many charge cycles the battery sees, not calendar years (or time), but yes, LFP should have more range than NCA on the RWD drive model 3 after some amount of charge cycles. Here's a link to a good video explaining LFP (start watching at time 19:54 to answer your question).

 

[Baluchi]

Newbie here and not engaged in the current discussion. My question is related to this thread though and is very basic.

LFP battery will degrade slower than NCA. Thus in say, five years, the LFP equipped car could have greater range than the NCA and the gap will become greater the longer you go. Isn't the LFP the "million mile battery"?

I think closing the gap depends on which specific trims of the cars you're comparing. But using the chart from this study, and eyeballing the average degradation of LFP vs nickel batteries, let's consider a hypothetical scenario. For the mileage, I'm assuming people average about 150 miles between charge cycles (not sure if I'm way off with that assumption).

At purchase:
2022 Model 3 RWD range: 272 miles (100 capacity remaining, 0 miles on odometer, daily 100% charge gives 272 miles)
2022 Model 3 LR range: 358 miles (100 capacity remaining, 0 miles on odometer, daily 80% charge gives 286 miles)

5 years after purchase:
2022 Model 3 RWD range: 258 miles (95% capacity remaining, 156,000 miles on odometer, daily 100% charge gives 258 miles)
2022 Model 3 LR range: 308 miles (86% capacity remaining, 156, miles on odometer, daily 80% charge gives 246 miles)

10 years after purchase:
2022 Model 3 RWD range: 250 miles (92% capacity remaining, 312,000 miles on odometer, daily 100% charge gives 250 miles)
2022 Model 3 LR range: 293 miles (82% capacity remaining, 312,000 miles on odometer, daily 80% charge gives 234 miles)

Note: I'm assuming four charge cycles per week, which equates to 208 cycles per year. So 5 years is about 1040 cycles and 10 years is about 2080 cycles. Obviously there are a ton of other variables too, like driving style, cycle SoC ranges, fast charging vs trickle charging, temperature, etc.

Also, this conflicts a bit with Tesla's own statement that their batteries lose about 1% for every 20,000 miles driven. I'm assuming 150 miles per charge cycle, but using Tesla's claim with that same study implies people are only charging 500 cycles to reach 200,000 miles, which is a whopping 400 miles per charge. Maybe the discrepancy is because Tesla's battery design and BMS are just better at limiting degradation than your average batteries that are being tested in studies.

But using my estimates and the chart in that study, long-term you're better of with the LFP battery in terms of daily usable range. Not to mention that the LFP chemistry is far more stable and more environmentally friendly.

EDIT: Regarding the million mile claim...I've read that LFP batteries can get 5000-7000 cycles while maintaining over 80% of the battery's capacity. So yeah, those batteries should last a million miles. But I don't know if the rest of the car can last that long. So maybe after a car gets removed from service, those LFP batteries get upcycled for grid storage or home backup or something like that until they finally need to be recycled into new batteries.

 

[Schmidlack]

It has to do with how many charge cycles the battery sees, not calendar years (or time), but yes, LFP should have more range than NCA on the RWD drive model 3 after some amount of charge cycles. Here's a link to a good video explaining LFP (start watching at time 19:54 to answer your question).

Thank you, that is a good video and I learned a great deal.

 

[Schmidlack]

I think closing the gap depends on which specific trims of the cars you're comparing. But using the chart from this study, and eyeballing the average degradation of LFP vs nickel batteries, let's consider a hypothetical scenario. For the mileage, I'm assuming people average about 150 miles between charge cycles (not sure if I'm way off with that assumption).

At purchase:
2022 Model 3 RWD range: 272 miles (100 capacity remaining, 0 miles on odometer, daily 100% charge gives 272 miles)
2022 Model 3 LR range: 358 miles (100 capacity remaining, 0 miles on odometer, daily 80% charge gives 286 miles)

5 years after purchase:
2022 Model 3 RWD range: 258 miles (95% capacity remaining, 156,000 miles on odometer, daily 100% charge gives 258 miles)
2022 Model 3 LR range: 308 miles (86% capacity remaining, 156, miles on odometer, daily 80% charge gives 246 miles)

10 years after purchase:
2022 Model 3 RWD range: 250 miles (92% capacity remaining, 312,000 miles on odometer, daily 100% charge gives 250 miles)
2022 Model 3 LR range: 293 miles (82% capacity remaining, 312,000 miles on odometer, daily 80% charge gives 234 miles)

Note: I'm assuming four charge cycles per week, which equates to 208 cycles per year. So 5 years is about 1040 cycles and 10 years is about 2080 cycles. Obviously there are a ton of other variables too, like driving style, cycle SoC ranges, fast charging vs trickle charging, temperature, etc.

Also, this conflicts a bit with Tesla's own statement that their batteries lose about 1% for every 20,000 miles driven. I'm assuming 150 miles per charge cycle, but using Tesla's claim with that same study implies people are only charging 500 cycles to reach 200,000 miles, which is a whopping 400 miles per charge. Maybe the discrepancy is because Tesla's battery design and BMS are just better at limiting degradation than your average batteries that are being tested in studies.

But using my estimates and the chart in that study, long-term you're better of with the LFP battery in terms of daily usable range. Not to mention that the LFP chemistry is far more stable and more environmentally friendly.

EDIT: Regarding the million mile claim...I've read that LFP batteries can get 5000-7000 cycles while maintaining over 80% of the battery's capacity. So yeah, those batteries should last a million miles. But I don't know if the rest of the car can last that long. So maybe after a car gets removed from service, those LFP batteries get upcycled for grid storage or home backup or something like that until they finally need to be recycled into new batteries.

Good stuff. I'm an engineer, so I understand the conundrum of making a calculation where there are so many variables, but you have to start somewhere with the assumptions. Obviously both chemistries have their pro's and con's, but for a SR application, the LPF may be preferable. And if I were a used car salesmen, I could pitch an LFP model more readily!

 

[AAKEE]

As is is the calendar aging that is the main degradation factor for (at least) NCA for the most drivers, the difference in cycles isnt the big issue.
If the new LFP behaves different than earlier/other LFP and not is sensitive at all to high SOC when resting, they might keep the range for very long time.
But if they act as earlier generations of LFP, the calendar aging will cause a degradation that is rather close to the NCA-bartteries.

 

[TexaCali]

A quick update on my 2022 LFP M3 RWD:

I'm now 5 weeks and 994 miles into ownership. The weather out here became significantly colder a few weeks ago (low 40's with 90-100% humidity), and I've noticed my Wh/mi average increase. "Lifetime" average was 213 before the temp drop, and now is 223. When I look at my trip and "since last charge" numbers they are typically around 230-240 Wh/mi. Since I don't charge every day, I rarely precondition, and with the high humidity the defrost and heat have been a must (not to mention the car heating the battery). I've seen multiple alerts that full regen was not avail even though I was only partially charged - likely indicating the battery was cold.

I must say I'm quite impressed. I'm using the heat and defrost generously, driving in a lively fashion, and still using significantly less energy than my last EV (Ford Focus Electric) under ideal conditions. Full charge range remains at 272 miles.

Side note: I took delivery on the 13th. My plates arrived today and end with "666".....I'm thinking I should name the car "Luci" as in "Lucifer". LoL.

 

[amit_gunner]

A quick update on my 2022 LFP M3 RWD:

I'm now 5 weeks and 994 miles into ownership. The weather out here became significantly colder a few weeks ago (low 40's with 90-100% humidity), and I've noticed my Wh/mi average increase. "Lifetime" average was 213 before the temp drop, and now is 223. When I look at my trip and "since last charge" numbers they are typically around 230-240 Wh/mi. Since I don't charge every day, I rarely precondition, and with the high humidity the defrost and heat have been a must (not to mention the car heating the battery). I've seen multiple alerts that full regen was not avail even though I was only partially charged - likely indicating the battery was cold.

I must say I'm quite impressed. I'm using the heat and defrost generously, driving in a lively fashion, and still using significantly less energy than my last EV (Ford Focus Electric) under ideal conditions. Full charge range remains at 272 miles.

Side note: I took delivery on the 13th. My plates arrived today and end with "666".....I'm thinking I should name the car "Luci" as in "Lucifer". LoL.

Are you still charging to 100% once a Week. I think i remember you saying something like that.

 

[theothertom]

When I look at my trip and "since last charge" numbers they are typically around 230-240 Wh/mi.

That's pretty good for temps in the 40's. I'd be interested in what happens if/when temps drop to the mid 20s.
Edit: Just saw you're in San Jose. I guess mid 20s aren't going to happen

 

[TexaCali]

Are you still charging to 100% once a Week. I think i remember you saying something like that.

More or less. Once the car gets down around 20% (or less) at the end of the day, I charge it....unless I don't plan to drive for the next few days, then I let it sit and wait until I have a need to drive before charging....but I always charge to 100%.

 

[TexaCali]

That's pretty good for temps in the 40's. I'd be interested in what happens if/when temps drop to the mid 20s.
Edit: Just saw you're in San Jose. I guess mid 20s aren't going to happen

LoL, yep, San Jose sees mid 20's maybe once every 50 years or so. But there is a chance I'll take a trip to Tahoe in the car, so might see some low temps there.

 

[amit_gunner]

More or less. Once the car gets down around 20% (or less) at the end of the day, I charge it....unless I don't plan to drive for the next few days, then I let it sit and wait until I have a need to drive before charging....but I always charge to 100%.

Thanks man. These are great tips. In Canada we probably have to charge more than you but at least it gives me good idea how LFP charging works.

 

[TexaCali]

Thanks man. These are great tips. In Canada we probably have to charge more than you but at least it gives me good idea how LFP charging works.

Yes, I imagine your "idle" or "vampire" drain will be higher as the car spends energy to keep things warm, but the same principles apply:

1. Sitting at a high state of charge causes more stress on the battery
2. The Battery Management System (BMS) needs to see the battery at various states of charge (with the car in deep sleep) to maintain proper calibration

If we simply:
-charge to 100%
-drive the car
-recharge when the remaining charge is insufficient to comfortably get us through the next day

we address both of these issues (to a degree) with minimal effort. I predict those that follow this approach will see almost no battery degradation during their period of ownership, and the batteries in these cars will probably outlast the cars themselves....but we will see.

 

[626M3]

Battery range degradation

I have a 2021 (September delivery) M3S+ LFP. My cars range at 100% charged was 253.

At 811 miles on the odometer I had to take my M3S+ to the service department for charging issues. Long story short after horrible service experience and a month later they replaced the PCS (power conversion system). I picked up the car on Saturday after Thanksgiving.

4 weeks have now gone by since the repair, I’m at 2,361 miles on the odometer and my range at 100% charge has been going down 1 mile each week from 253 to 252, 252 to 251, 251 to 250 and now I’m at 250- 249/248.

Today I charged to 100% and only had 248 mile range.

Is this Normal? I’m located in Los Angeles, CA for weather purposes.

Any help would be greatly appreciated guys!!!

 

[pipp]

What are your charging habits? Where do you charge on what level charger and how often do you charge to 100%? Not that it probably makes a big difference in this case — I am at the same 249 level right now after 3 1/2 months but by a different path where drops usually took place after longer trips. I watch this projected range and think about it but refuse to worry very much about it because I’m not convinced Tesla’s algorithms for projecting range are much better than their Estimated Delivery Dates or their stupid estimated charging times which are almost always a half hour longer than the actual charging times.

The 253 was not correct in the first place, because with our battery size we should have started with projected range of 262, though Tesla still doesn’t bother to show those extra miles. And those 4 miles we are both missing can easily be compensated for by a lighter touch on the accelerator, or we can burn through a lot more range miles very quickly by being lead-footers. I am switching from level 1 charging to level 2 in the near future, but mainly because I am bummed out about putting 85 kwh of juice in the car over the last 18 days, of which the car only was able to use 54.

 

[Baluchi]

Battery range degradation

I have a 2021 (September delivery) M3S+ LFP. My cars range at 100% charged was 253.

At 811 miles on the odometer I had to take my M3S+ to the service department for charging issues. Long story short after horrible service experience and a month later they replaced the PCS (power conversion system). I picked up the car on Saturday after Thanksgiving.

4 weeks have now gone by since the repair, I’m at 2,361 miles on the odometer and my range at 100% charge has been going down 1 mile each week from 253 to 252, 252 to 251, 251 to 250 and now I’m at 250- 249/248.

Today I charged to 100% and only had 248 mile range.

Is this Normal? I’m located in Los Angeles, CA for weather purposes.

Any help would be greatly appreciated guys!!!

Sorry about the issues you had initially with your PCS. Hopefully they fixed it for good. My car is also from September 2021, and I'm down in the 249-250 range now too. Not sure if that's a cold weather thing, a degradation thing, or a combination of both. But even if it's pure degradation, 249 miles is a loss of just 1.5%. So I'm not worried about it, and you probably shouldn't be either. We're all gonna have some range loss, and our LFP batteries should fare better than most. I'd be concerned if we were down to 240 miles at this point, but 249 seems within spec.

 

[USBSeawolf2000]

I have 3,000+ on my odometer and my full charges have been 248/249.

 

[nevdash]

Hmm. Like the few of you posters above, I’m also a September delivery, and I’m also at 248/249. But I have more than 7,000 on the odometer. Maybe calendar aging is more of a driving force behind degradation than miles driven.

 

[FARKLE!]

Also a Sept. '21 LFP delivery, and similar experience here. Stated range started going down after 2200 miles or so at about a mile a week. Now showing between 245 miles and 248 miles. I was charging to 100% every night, but have since stopped that and now charging to 80% - 85%. Tesla ran a diagnostic test on the battery and said it was fine, but told me to stop charging to 100%. Also said the culprit could be TeslaFi and other 3rd party apps, which I thought was interesting...never heard that before. He recommended uninstalling them.

After charging from 30% to 80% a couple times, it did once go back up to 252 miles. but them back down. so who knows! I just look at % now..

 

[CornishChris]

Now that LFP batteries have been operating for a couple months in the US, I thought it would be useful to start a thread for people to post their experiences with degradation of LFP batteries. A major benefit of these batteries is supposed to be resistant to degradation, so let's test that claim here with our own observations.

I'll kick it off with my SR+ LFP, which just passed 3,000 miles today. I use Tessie, and as of today it shows a battery capacity of 54.6 kWh (out of 55), and a max range of 253 miles. So at 3,000 miles I've had no noticable degradation, and in fact you can see the trend lines have been rising.

One more calculation... I'm averaging 207 wh/m over the life of the car. Assuming I could yap into the full 54.6 kWh battery, that gives me a range of 263.7 miles.

Hope to see more examples from LFP owners. I'll try to update my stats at significant mile markers.

I know this was the first thread but I can’t see many people with similar experiences as I’ve had – a fair bit of apparent degradation for low mileage and low stress driving. My car is down 1.6 kWh down from new. This is almost 3% and I was expecting some battery re-calibration and balancing to make a difference, but it’s only got worse since then. It was about 0.5 kWh down when I first got it, but the rate it’s going down, I’m concerned it could get bad quickly.

For the balancing and re-calibration I’ve three times switched the sentry mode off, kept the car overnight at 100%, 90% etc all the way down to 5% and recharged to full. I haven’t done as this site (Learn How To Recalibrate Your Tesla Battery To Show Correct Range) suggests, but will try it if anybody can rate it. From my understanding and reading, this method (Tesla battery management system (BMS) calibration), seems to be suggested on most of the forums and makes the most sense.

I’m not super-concerned as the car still seems to be suggesting about 263 miles, but if this trend continues, I’m not sure 1% degradation a month is sustainable.