Model S Fatal Crash Impact on current owners

[ShotgunF15E]

People misuse the system and then blame the car? Give me a break.

If you're using it on anything other than a freeway and then distracting yourself with other things like watching a movie, you have only yourself to blame, not the car.

 

[m2s2]

I only hope the NTSA does not make Tesla disable the system

 

[STbreaker]

I only hope the NTSA does not make Tesla disable the system

I can't imagine that happening. While it's undeniable that Tesla is always under more scrutiny than other manufacturers, it makes no sense to disable a feature because one person was presumably misusing it and caused an accident.

Also, they would have to tell all car manufacturers to disable their (pretty clearly inferior) lane keep assist and adaptive cruise control systems, which is impossible.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Zero impact for myself.

But, I've had AP since they introduced it back in Oct of 2015. Since its been released I've learned a lot about not only the AP behavior, but my own behavior.

I realized after awhile of using AP that it took away a lot of my situational awareness. So now days I mostly use TACC when there is lots of traffic, and I use AP on freeways where there isn't much traffic.

The biggest negative experience with AP has been truck lust. It's something so unpredictable that you have no idea when it will happen. So that has further reduced my use of AP. Sure you can say just to hold the wheel while it goes by a semi, but it's more than just holding the wheel. It's about knowing that the car might suddenly steer into the truck, and holding it to prevent that. It also means that it could cause a bit of cycle to occur, and that can be unnerving.

I do love TACC though, and you won't be able to pry it from my dead cold hands,

As to the accident I think that's mostly the need for AEB to be improved. At this time we have ZERO hard evidence that the driver wasn't paying attention. All we know on a factual level is the AEB couldn't mitigate the severity of that accident. So it will act to push improvements to the AEB. I expect the AEB of the next generation hardware to be a lot better.

I don't expect the NHTSA to come to any determination because I think they're mostly looking for faults in a system. If something didn't perform up to expectations, etc. Neither the AP or AEB were designed with this scenario in mind. Plus it impacts every car that has the MobileEye system, and isn't simply about having more nags.

As to AP for us owners I believe our biggest risk is truck lust, and if a crash happens the NHTSA could crack down hard. It will be viewed more as a direct cause of an accident. Like if the owner overcorrected for it's failing. Plus the last poll on truck lust showed a significant number of owners reporting it happening.

 

[Ben W]

I'm going to stop watching movies while I drive....

The driver shouldn't have been watching the movie. He should have been watching the trailer.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

The driver shouldn't have been watching the movie. He should have been watching the trailer.

I'm not sure how watching the trailer of the movie would have helped.

But, in all seriousness we don't know if the driver as watching a movie. He could have been listening to it, or it could have been flipped on during the accident.

There are numerous things he could have been doing.

Maybe he was looking back during a lane change (he reportedly switched lanes right before the accident).
Maybe he saw the truck, but thought AP would stop the car (please never do this).
Maybe he was changing a setting on the screen at the wrong time.
Maybe he was just in shock that the big rig was there in front of him, and he locked up.

We likely will never know. It is a good wake up call to those that do watch movies or read books. It's a good warning to them to stop that.

 

[ShotgunF15E]

I'm not sure how watching the trailer of the movie would have helped.

But, in all seriousness we don't know if the driver as watching a movie. He could have been listening to it, or it could have been flipped on during the accident.

There are numerous things he could have been doing.

Maybe he was looking back during a lane change (he reportedly switched lanes right before the accident).
Maybe he saw the truck, but thought AP would stop the car (please never do this).
Maybe he was changing a setting on the screen at the wrong time.
Maybe he was just in shock that the big rig was there in front of him, and he locked up.

We likely will never know. It is a good wake up call to those that do watch movies or read books. It's a good warning to them to stop that.

What we DO know for a fact is that he wasn't watching the ROAD. He never even attempted to hit the brakes. Regardless of what else he might have been doing, he wasn't paying attention. Rule #1.

 

[Pruitt]

I use AP at every opportunity - on limited-access divided highways (like interstates), non-limited-access divided highways (like the one Mr. Brown was killed on), and clearly striped two lane roads.

Regardless of what kind of road I'm on, I watch ahead (and behind) for potential problems, like someone zig-zagging their way through traffic, cars merging or turning onto the roadway, and ambiguous/disrupted lane markings. I've had one or two unexpected things happen, but nothing that someone being reasonably aware and alert couldn't handle easily.

 

[Ben W]

What we DO know for a fact is that he wasn't watching the ROAD. He never even attempted to hit the brakes. Regardless of what else he might have been doing, he wasn't paying attention. Rule #1.

It's possible that he did see it with enough warning that he could have braked, but was effectively mentally paralyzed for a few moments thinking the car would brake for him. It's also possible (though almost unthinkable) that he WAS paying full attention, but intentionally waited to see when the autopilot would brake, and it never did, but he realized it too late to apply the brakes himself.

I do hope that the outcome of this investigation is to push toward mandating side skirts/guards for trailers. Even if they might not prevent underride in a full-speed impact, they would likely trigger radar sensors to initiate emergency braking. This is not a substitute for driver education and awareness of course, but every layer of safety helps.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

What we DO know for a fact is that he wasn't watching the ROAD. He never even attempted to hit the brakes. Regardless of what else he might have been doing, he wasn't paying attention. Rule #1.

In previous accidents that involved AP the driver didn't hit the brakes even though they were paying attention.

What reason did they give?

"I thought the AP would brake"

Yes, that is astonishing they would sit there as the car got closer and closer without braking. It's painful to watch the dash cam video of it happening.

In one case they didn't realized they had disabled AP by braking.
In the other case they didn't realize the AP couldn't always sense a stopped vehicle.

In both of those cases the driver could have easily stopped the car.

The first rule of AP is to talk about AP.
The second rule of AP is to drive the damn car. Where you give yourself enough buffer to take over in case the AP doesn't do what you expect it to do.

 

[bhzmark]

Autopilot plus me is safer than either one of us alone ...

Excellent way to make the point.

 

[Lcaudle24]

Excellent way to make the point.

I know this response is cynical, but I believe this technology - along with many others - will always be dictated by the 10% of us out there who cannot handle it, the government which always overreacts, and the company with the technology that - for good reason - is afraid of being sued.

 

[ecarfan]

I know this response is cynical, but I believe this technology - along with many others - will always be dictated by the 10% of us out there who cannot handle it, the government which always overreacts, and the company with the technology that - for good reason - is afraid of being sued.

Elon is pushing ahead with significant steps towards full autonomous driving and is clearly less concerned about lawsuits and government regulations than the competition. I am sure he is aware of those obstacles but is not afraid of them. I believe the movement towards autonomous driving is unstoppable, though there will surely be some bumps in the road along the way.

The recent Tesla fatality after 130 million miles of Autopilot use will not significantly slow down the progress Tesla is making.

 

[David29]

There are few if any roads in my area with medians and cross traffic uncontrolled by traffic lights, so I do not think I have ever used TACC or AP in a situation similar to the one involved in the Florida accident. I use AP almost exclusively on divided, limited access highways, and sometimes use TACC without auto steering on lesser roads. But I suspect (and hope) I'd think twice about using either if I am ever on a road with uncontrolled cross traffic at intersections.

 

[jeffro01]

Certainly hasn't, nor will it, changed the way I use AP... There is no evidence here the system failed in any way based on it's current design and limitations, the driver failed. I've used AP long enough to know it's strengths and weaknesses and thus adjust accordingly. I look forward to the day when I can truly take my focus off of driving and just be a passenger in the drivers seat...

Jeff

 

[ElectricTundra]

I use AP very frequently both for it's inherent advantages and evaluation of the state of autonomous driving for reports. I have about 30,000 AP miles under my belt so far. I always pay very close attention when using it and nothing about the recent incident has changed my view or how I use AP.

Even paying close attention I find it very beneficial in many instances in lessoning the cognitive load when driving and find that this allows me to remain much more alert than without AP. This especially on longer single and multi-day road trips.

In my estimation AP, when used properly, makes for a much safer drive than no AP.

 

[gzerninplatz]

Here is the clip of me being interviewed by local news on this...started out a bit sensationalist, but the news guy became a fan when I let him drive...(he now has a Model 3 reservation). And by the way, the clip has my taking my hands off the wheel - it was only for a couple of seconds, to prove to him that autopilot was active, but that is the part they showed in the clip, of course....
Tesla owners react to news of deadly accident

 

[Sir Guacamolaf]

The only change it has made in my case is to make sure I crash as hard as possible. Tesla repair costs are so high y'know! I'd rather not deal with them. Goodbye cruel world. (But not in a hurry of course, I wish I have safe driving ahead for me for many many many years!)

 

[ShotgunF15E]

It's possible that he did see it with enough warning that he could have braked, but was effectively mentally paralyzed for a few moments thinking the car would brake for him. It's also possible (though almost unthinkable) that he WAS paying full attention, but intentionally waited to see when the autopilot would brake, and it never did, but he realized it too late to apply the brakes himself.

I do hope that the outcome of this investigation is to push toward mandating side skirts/guards for trailers. Even if they might not prevent underride in a full-speed impact, they would likely trigger radar sensors to initiate emergency braking. This is not a substitute for driver education and awareness of course, but every layer of safety helps.

That's just non-sensical. You don't play chicken with a truck and then NEVER hit the brake pedal or swerve to save your own life....unless you have a death wish....

 

[David29]

Here is the clip of me being interviewed by local news on this...started out a bit sensationalist, but the news guy became a fan when I let him drive...(he now has a Model 3 reservation). And by the way, the clip has my taking my hands off the wheel - it was only for a couple of seconds, to prove to him that autopilot was active, but that is the part they showed in the clip, of course....
Tesla owners react to news of deadly accident

I think it s great that the TV station interviewed you and that the correspondent was willing to try the AP featres.
But with all due respect -- the scenes in the clip show you driving on a surface street with traffic signals. The clip leaves one the impression that the car stopped automatically at a traffic light. But the system cannot read traffic signals and won't stop automatically at a traffic light unless there is a vehicle ahead of it, to stop behind. So I think the TV clip may well have left an unfortunate inaccurate impression in the minds of viewers.
Furthermore, the manual says specifically, "Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is primarily intended for driving on dry, straight roads, such as highways and freeways. It should not be used on city streets." Similarly, it also says, "Do not use Autosteer on city streets or in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present."
So I think it would have been preferable to demonstrate it on a limited access road, a freeway, not on city streets.