Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

[22522]

It is interesting because the programmers had actually added that behavior in to be polite to other drivers. Previously, it did stick to the left side of lane.

Yeah, being too polite [by stealing from the bike lane or shoulder whenever you think you can get away with it] is bad policy.

 

[robe900]

At slower speeds, such as in city driving, 1 to 5 would be acceptable following distance at speeds below 35 MPH.

That's why I called it driver inexperience.

NOPE! Not driver inexperience, he’s licensed and all. It’s his understanding of Tesla’s functioning. Did Tesla train him on the functioning of AP? I’m just genuinely concerned how much does everyone understand these settings. Do you take a new driver on a drive or info session and show them all the ways they aren’t supposed to use it ?

 

[JTseng]

Okay, let’s see.. there’s no evidence yet, that autopilot went haywire. But not yet, si let’s wait. You’re argument for now, is only based on your biase for tech more than the driver.

As an engineer, I am positive that AP software/hardware has realtime validation of the system's integrity. Even if the brake fails, compare to non-AP based vehicle, it will always be safer in terms of early fault detections. Having saying this, I sure hope (if not already) Tesla places the safety within the autonomous software/hardware operations as the upmost priority. Items such as pre-check for each engine startup, realtime sensors validations that includes imaging/sonar/radar feedbacks qualification etc... In short, we are at the dawn of ev car transformation, there will be more learning curve to get it close to acceptable rate (99.999% may be?).

 

[jelloslug]

NOPE! Not driver inexperience, he’s licensed and all. It’s his understanding of Tesla’s functioning. Did Tesla train him on the functioning of AP? I’m just genuinely concerned how much does everyone understand these settings. Do you take a new driver on a drive or info session and show them all the ways they aren’t supposed to use it ?

Like you said, he is a licensed driver. It was his responsibility to drive the car. He chose to use the drivers aids that the car was equipped with improperly and this is the result.

 

[JRP3]

This is insane to claim the driver was at fault. DMV issues a licence on a persons ability to drive and not to take over from a machine from an autopilot situation.

Until fully autonomous driving exists the driver is always responsible for the vehicle. Drivers routinely "take over" from cruise control, which is an automatic driving feature.

 

[robe900]

No it's based on bias for real data, and there is zero that autopilot can't be overridden. You seem to have a bias for the unlikely over reality.

You probably don’t even know the reality of this accident and you’re still commenting. Yes, you could override the AP but what abt the reaction time? If all of a sudden the car decided to bump into the barrier, maybe it thought there’s something on the highway and steered out of the road, then how much do you have, to react? Not much at highway speeds.

 

[22522]

Not sure that is a fair comparison. The perfect storm analogy is a rare confluence of events. Items 1-6 occur everywhere, everyday and all day. The sun rises and sets everyday and we know with certainty which roads will have glare on which days (absent clouds.) People speed witth impunity, and cheat in the car pool lane until last possible moment to pull over into the slower lane. No state has the budget to be able to go and replace a broker barrier within hours.

The drunk driver should have paid for it and there should be spares at the ready. Rain does however make construction zones less safe.

 

[JTseng]

Until fully autonomous driving exists the driver is always responsible for the vehicle. Drivers routinely "take over" from cruise control, which is an automatic driving feature.

That is good point! If the car was in cruise control, no one would mention it. Still, the driver needs to be ready.

 

[JRP3]

You probably don’t even know the reality of this accident and you’re still commenting.

In fact it's clear that I have a better understanding of the "reality" of this accident than you, yet you are still commenting.

Yes, you could override the AP but what abt the reaction time? If all of a sudden the car decided to bump into the barrier, maybe it thought there’s something on the highway and steered out of the road, then how much do you have, to react? Not much at highway speeds.

Since the vehicle hit the barrier straight on and not at an angle it's obvious that there was no attempt by the car to "bump into the barrier". You keep trying to come up with the least likely scenarios for some reason...

 

[bonnie]

You probably don’t even know the reality of this accident and you’re still commenting.

I think it would be equally fair to point out you don't have first-hand knowledge of autopilot, but are still commenting. Be fair.

Yes, you could override the AP but what abt the reaction time? If all of a sudden the car decided to bump into the barrier, maybe it thought there’s something on the highway and steered out of the road, then how much do you have, to react? Not much at highway speeds.

Could someone who lives near robe900 PLEASE arrange to meet with him and let him experience AP for himself???

Autopilot doesn't "decide to bump into the barrier" & it isn't a case of "needing to wrestle back control" (per other posts).

 

[robe900]

No offense, but it doesn't sounds like you understand the capabilities or limitations of autopilot or even the details of the accident.

The driver struck the edge of the barrier head on at almost 70mph, nothing "bumped" anything. Unfortunately, it sounds like for whatever reason, autopilot misinterpreted the line markings and drove towards the barrier, which means the driver needed to be paying attention to avoid the collision. Since it doesn't sounds like the steering wheel was turned or the brakes applied, the logical conclusion is that he simply wasn't paying attention at the time. I'll admit that there is a non-zero chance that a cascading combination of failures of steering, brakes and vehicle systems could have caused the accident, but there's no evidence to suggest any of that happened and the logical explanation for the tragedy is driver distraction.

Some here obviously have an agenda, New posters have not justified or proven their findings. Best to let the experts handle this.

btw, Welcome to the forum robe900.

Yes, I’m new and my agenda is, I got hurt at how Tesla is handling this. They gave numbers for how many accidents happen for some miles but do they account for those miles only for cars that are driving since Tesla’s inception. They shouldn’t count the numbers for cars that have hit road before 2008.

 

[Krazaak]

Could someone who lives near robe900 PLEASE arrange to meet with him and let him experience AP for himself?

Autopilot doesn't "decide to bump into the barrier" & it isn't a case of "needing to wrestle back control" (per other posts).

At this point, I assume we're just dealing with somebody creating multiple accounts to make the same straw-man arguments, licensed drivers being incapable of making mistakes, autopilot training, etc.

We could lower the speed limits to 30mph everywhere, remove seatbelts, airbags and affix a 6 inch spike to the center of everyone's steering wheel and we'd still have accidents.

If this wasn't a Tesla, the only news would have been the traffic slowdown on the interstate.

It's an unfortunate loss of life, no system will ever eliminate all accidents and it's likely that nobody will ever know what the driver was doing leading up to the accident.

 

[sinv]

How can Tesla advertise like this:

Automatic Emergency Braking
Designed to detect objects that the car may impact and applies the brakes accordingly

Front Collision Warning
Helps warn of impending collisions with slower moving or stationary cars
​

In my opinion this is clearly misleading, at the best. Seems like the car did not alert the driver at all immediately before the accident, nor did it activate the brakes. So how can someone say the systems did work properly as advertised

 

[jelloslug]

Yes, I’m new and my agenda is, I got hurt at how Tesla is handling this. They gave numbers for how many accidents happen for some miles but do they account for those miles only for cars that are driving since Tesla’s inception. They shouldn’t count the numbers for cars that have hit road before 2008.

You are hurt by facts?

 

[JohnSnowNW]

How can Tesla advertise like this:

Automatic Emergency Braking
Designed to detect objects that the car may impact and applies the brakes accordingly

Front Collision Warning
Helps warn of impending collisions with slower moving or stationary cars
​

In my opinion this is clearly misleading, at the best. Seems like the car did not alert the driver at all immediately before the accident, nor did it activate the brakes. So how can someone say the systems did work properly as advertised

They also advertise the limitations. Front Collision Warning has helped me numerous times. I've never had to test AEB, but it's only designed to mitigate a collision, not prevent it.

 

[Raven]

Autopilot is a nap-trap for the brain.

Overall, I agree with what you’re saying, I just disagree that the AF447 wreck was caused by AP complacency. IMO, it was poor upset/stall recovery training. They were actively trying to recover the aircraft after a system failure. The Model X driver did nothing, so my example of CFIT while on AP is much more relevant to the Model X crash.

Airplane stuff aside, AP in any form is a nap-trap like you say and unlike in the air, cars are not afforded minimum spacing from other cars and continuously have large foreign objects about. Tesla AP has a much greater hurdle to jump.

 

[Krazaak]

How can Tesla advertise like this:

Automatic Emergency Braking
Designed to detect objects that the car may impact and applies the brakes accordingly

Front Collision Warning
Helps warn of impending collisions with slower moving or stationary cars
​

In my opinion this is clearly misleading, at the best. Seems like the car did not alert the driver at all immediately before the accident, nor did it activate the brakes. So how can someone say the systems did work properly as advertised

Tesla's have both of those features and I regularly get FCW alerts. The mistake is assuming that either of those safety systems help in 100% of cases.

Sometimes seatbelts and/or airbags kill people that wouldn't have died in an accident otherwise. They're still safer overall than not having them.

AEB and FCW will not avoid all possible accidents and they are not a replacement for the driver actually paying attention and using the brakes themselves. They do however both work under certain circumstances and even if they only worked in 50% of the cases, it'd be better than not having them.

 

[thegruf]

How can Tesla advertise like this:

Automatic Emergency Braking
Designed to detect objects that the car may impact and applies the brakes accordingly

Front Collision Warning
Helps warn of impending collisions with slower moving or stationary cars
​

In my opinion this is clearly misleading, at the best. Seems like the car did not alert the driver at all immediately before the accident, nor did it activate the brakes. So how can someone say the systems did work properly as advertised

because both are true and not misleading, but neither of the systems are flawless.
Both are also covered by a number of warnings in the Manuals as to limitations of their scope.

 

[rayng]

How can Tesla advertise like this:

Automatic Emergency Braking
Designed to detect objects that the car may impact and applies the brakes accordingly

Front Collision Warning
Helps warn of impending collisions with slower moving or stationary cars
​

In my opinion this is clearly misleading, at the best. Seems like the car did not alert the driver at all immediately before the accident, nor did it activate the brakes. So how can someone say the systems did work properly as advertised

while any fatality is tragic, this driver may have turned off those warnings. i hate all beeps, bells and chimes on my teslas and generally turn them off.

some objects can appear faster than the brakes can be applied. what's salient here is that aeb, abs, or your air bags do not prevent car accidents. good drivers do. these are all just electronic aids.

i have old cars that have none of those technologies, like disc brakes but i'm still responsible when driving on public roads.

 

[timvracer]

Wow... go away for a bit and the board goes nuts.

It's not complicated folks... his hands were off the wheel for 6 seconds before the impact. Now each of you, look down at your phone and count to 6. Do you see how much time that is? Nothing extraordinary had to happen here, that is more than enough time for the car to follow the left gore marker (which was clear) instead of the right gore marker (which is very worn) in the morning glare, and simply drive directly into the barrier.

Now I know most of you are probably more responsible than I have been, but there have been many times I got caught in a distraction and took my eyes off the road for several seconds. Once even, the car did indeed start veering across my lane into a bus, but I sensed the motion and quickly looked up and grabbed the wheel. I fully knew I was doing wrong.. it was a dumb choice.

Tesla's incessant reminders to hold the wheel make it pretty darn clear that THEY WANT YOU TO BE ATTENTIVE. There is nothing as a 1 year driver that I could claim would make me think this car can drive itself.

And as I said in a previous post, I get it more now than ever, they mean it. No more multi-second distractions for me. I love AP, it has transformed my commute, and is indeed far safer than humans alone. I hate to see people trying to bring down this promising technology with a vastly better record for saving lives than cars without it for some personal agenda.

I feel terribly for this family, unfathomable loss. Unfortunately, we do have to compartmentalize here.

WHAT I THINK TESLA SHOULD CHANGE
I think when they release a new algorithm (in this case, wide lanes), they should require hands on for a calibration period for the driver to become familiar with potentially new behavior.

WHAT I THINK CALIFORNIA SHOULD CHANGE
Duh... fix your damn roads, especially in a spot that is known to be dangerous. I personally put this fatality in CA's hands.

WHAT I THINK WE AS DRIVERS SHOULD CHANGE
Pay attention, use AP as it was designed to be used. It is not "self driving".