Model X Falcon Doors

[Merrill]

My parents had a 1948 Cadillac 4 door, and on theses boats the doors are Hugh and heavy. So one time I'm outside and both rear door are open, I had my hand on the door pillar and my mother closed the front door pinching my fingers. There are many things that can be dangerous about a car and you just have to be careful. I like the falcon doors and Tesla will design a very nice system.

 

[ckessel]

I'm worried that some kid will lose their fingers because of the falcon wing doors.

I believe the Ginsu guillotine door edges are optional. By default, the doors would have have foam padding around the points a hand might get caught.

 

[bonnie]

I look at the Falcon Doors as "side lift-gates."

One thing people will have to get used to: when you've just come from Starbucks, latte in your hand, don't do what every Starbucks customer always does: place the cup on the roof of the car before getting into the car. Oh, it's going to be fun seeing the SuperCut video on YouTube of all the Starbucks drinks falling into Model X's....

Oh you just had to go spoil the fun, didn't you? I was hoping people wouldn't think of that and I could sit outside Starbuck's, watching lattes fly in all directions. Plan A was to produce the first viral video of it and get rich. I guess I'll have to go to Plan B and open a fingerless glove shop for children, instead.

 

[ecarfan]

I am with bonnie, in thinking that these things will be basically as functional as a rear lift-gate. Which seem to work quite well.

Agreed, the Flacon doors are basically like having two rear lift gates but on each side of the car. However, one difference is that the Falcon doors are articulated, they have a hinge in the middle. So the sealing issue is more complex.

I am confident they are going to work well.

 

[ggies07]

I'm worried that some kid will lose their fingers because of the falcon wing doors. What happens when somebody puts their hand to the gap between the door and the frame and someone else on the outside leans to the door?

A lot of people will buy the MX as a family car and they will pick up their kids from school. The falcon wing doors already attract a lot of attention among kids and it is very easy to imagine a scenario where the kid and some friends walk together towards the MX as they keep talking. Then the child jumps in to the car. The other kids are outside. They keep talking a little more. The parent is in the driver's seat.

Then either the parent or the child presses the button and the door starts closing. But the kids outside keep talking about some last second thing. From here on things are very different between a traditional car door and the falcon wing doors.

Firstly with a traditional car door closing the door takes only one second. If somebody started talking as you are closing the rear door, you would either stop closing the door or you would close it and then lower the window. With the MX, closing the door and then lowering the window is not quick enough. There is just too much delay. Some people especially kids would rather quickly stop the door and continue talking for a few seconds.

The second and most unfortunate difference is that the easiest and fastest way to stop the door from closing is to put your hand in the gap to trigger the sensors which will stop the door. With a tradition door there is never any reason at all why somebody would want to put their hand between the door and the frame on purpose. But with the MX door the sensors become a reason to do that. Kids might even trigger the sensors for fun. Some kids will interrupt the door from closing by putting their hand in the gap on purpose so they can just have a few more words with their friends outside.

But at that moment, the kid's hand is between the door and the frame, what happens if somebody accidentally bumps into the door or leans to it?

Some people will argue that fingers can be smashed with regular doors too if you put your hand in the gap. However with regular doors there was no reason to put your hand where it might be smashed. With the MX the reason is to trigger the sensors. It increases the risk a lot, maybe 1000 times. I guess we will see some statistics in the future about smashed fingers.

Tesla has not shown that they have thought through the security aspect of gimmick features. For example the MS door handles should retract if they are obstructed but they don't. Why don't they? Here is a picture of a little girl who had her fingers stuck in a MS door handle:

Model S Photo Gallery - Page 9

Another possible scenario could be like this:
The car is parked on the side of the road. The driver side faces the road. The parent opens the driver side rear door. The kid sits. Then instead waiting by the door for it to close (many parents wouldn't wait outside the rear door for it to close because it takes too much time) the parent does one of two things: either she sits on the driver's seat and closes the rear door from there or she presses the button under the open door and proceeds immediately to the drivers seat.

The door starts moving down but near the end is interrupted by the kids hand. It stops but the kids hand is still in the gap because this is a little kid who doesn't understand. At that moment a cyclist is passing by who expects the door to fully close before he is next to the car but the door doesn't close therefore the cyclist loses balance and holds to the door from the outside to stop hitting the car and to push himself away. These things happen. I have seen cyclist videos on youtube where a car door opened the moment a cyclist was passing and the cyclist slammed the door back and closed it.

Being a cyclist myself I once hit a car from behind because it was turning to a side road, I was going straight on the main road and I expected it to clear but it suddenly stopped. I hit it and broke it's tail light. I can image a cyclist watching the door close and thinking it will shut by the time but then it stops or even worse starts opening again. Yes the door doesn't open too far. It maybe adds only 20cm width but cyclists sometimes drive close to parked cars.

This page says surgery to reattaching a finger would cost $600.000 to $750.000. If there are even a few finger injuries how will this effect car insurance quotes for MX? If it becomes too expensive to insure nobody will drive it even if they don't have little kids. Of course families with little kids will stop driving it the moment first finger injuries hit the news. Was this falcon wing gimmick really necessary? I don't think it was.

I thought the doors were suppose to have censors on them for just this reason. I swear I heard Elon talk about it in an interview....

 

[Teo]

I thought the doors were suppose to have censors on them for just this reason. I swear I heard Elon talk about it in an interview....

It looks like you stopped reading after the first sentence. I explained why sensors won't prevent some accidents.

I think Elon talked about the sensors in the last shareholder meeting. I heard him talk about it too. I hope those sensors are really sensitive. I would expect the door to move until 5mm gap using motors and then the door latch would do the rest and apply some strong force to press the door against the seals. Little kid fingers are very soft. If the sensors miss that and the latch starts pressing it will have a terrible outcome. I would like to see somebody testing the sensors using drinking straws.

 

[Chickenlittle]

I'm worried that some kid will lose their fingers because of the falcon wing doors. What happens when somebody puts their hand to the gap between the door and the frame and someone else on the outside leans to the door?

A lot of people will buy the MX as a family car and they will pick up their kids from school. The falcon wing doors already attract a lot of attention among kids and it is very easy to imagine a scenario where the kid and some friends walk together towards the MX as they keep talking. Then the child jumps in to the car. The other kids are outside. They keep talking a little more. The parent is in the driver's seat.

Then either the parent or the child presses the button and the door starts closing. But the kids outside keep talking about some last second thing. From here on things are very different between a traditional car door and the falcon wing doors.

Firstly with a traditional car door closing the door takes only one second. If somebody started talking as you are closing the rear door, you would either stop closing the door or you would close it and then lower the window. With the MX, closing the door and then lowering the window is not quick enough. There is just too much delay. Some people especially kids would rather quickly stop the door and continue talking for a few seconds.

The second and most unfortunate difference is that the easiest and fastest way to stop the door from closing is to put your hand in the gap to trigger the sensors which will stop the door. With a tradition door there is never any reason at all why somebody would want to put their hand between the door and the frame on purpose. But with the MX door the sensors become a reason to do that. Kids might even trigger the sensors for fun. Some kids will interrupt the door from closing by putting their hand in the gap on purpose so they can just have a few more words with their friends outside.

But at that moment, the kid's hand is between the door and the frame, what happens if somebody accidentally bumps into the door or leans to it?

Some people will argue that fingers can be smashed with regular doors too if you put your hand in the gap. However with regular doors there was no reason to put your hand where it might be smashed. With the MX the reason is to trigger the sensors. It increases the risk a lot, maybe 1000 times. I guess we will see some statistics in the future about

of course there is no reason to smash a finger in a regular car door BUT done all the time. Some one else closes door as some one suddenly tries to get out. I can personally tell you a crushed thumb never completely recovers. But why stop there. Don't ever buy a convertible in case a rock falls from a cliff and hits your head, don't ever drive on a country road in case a deer jumps out and hits your car, don't ever drive through a green light in case someone ignores the red light going through the intersection, don't ever put packages in your car in case they go flying during an accident. In fact you may just want to stay in bed.....but you could get a leg clot doing that. There is no way to eliminate risk in your life

 

[Teo]

Chickenlittle, I knew somebody would come up with an argument claiming a similar danger exists for regular door cars. Like I said the issue is that the sensors invite kid's hand to interrupt the door. You can not seriously argue that kids forgetting their hand in the gap and putting their hand there on purpose to trigger the sensors would be equally common. There would be at least 1000 time difference on frequency because one is a purposeful action to make use of the unintended "triggering sensors to stop the door" feature. The other is an unaware carelessness.

Statistics will show that kids are more likely to injure their hands in a MX door than a regular car door. The media will blow this out of proportion even if there is one injury. Because these doors are so unique it will make a good story.

 

[ckessel]

Teo, there have been automated hatch backs, sliding doors, retracting handles, sliding sun/moon roofs on cars, and god knows how many non-car applications that could pinch like elevator doors.

We've managed to avoid an epidemic of chopped off children's appendages. You're fear mongering.

 

[bonnie]

It looks like you stopped reading after the first sentence. I explained why sensors won't prevent some accidents.

I think Elon talked about the sensors in the last shareholder meeting. I heard him talk about it too. I hope those sensors are really sensitive. I would expect the door to move until 5mm gap using motors and then the door latch would do the rest and apply some strong force to press the door against the seals. Little kid fingers are very soft. If the sensors miss that and the latch starts pressing it will have a terrible outcome. I would like to see somebody testing the sensors using drinking straws.

And yet, even with the child seats in the rear of the Model S and a similar door action, we have yet to have one report of this. What are the odds??

 

[Teo]

Every time there is an issue with the doors it is going to be on the news. I can see it happening. The doors might be high enough for pedestrians not to hit their head but a cyclist would certainly hit it. There are so many unforeseeable problems with this door I expect multiple issues with it. Fingers are not the only issue. There will be cyclist accidents too. Maybe in the US there aren't so many cyclists as in some European countries and Tesla overlooked this danger. I don't see any reflectors along the depth of the doors to make them more visible when approaching a parked car from the back or front. I guess they will add these after a cyclist fractures his face. The door edges are like blades hanging in the air.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm 5'11" and I just measured my riding upright height on my bicycle and it is 6'5" on a hybrid bike with a flat handlebar. So it looks like those doors could be dangerous to cyclists.

 

[ckessel]

it looks like those doors could be dangerous to cyclists.

All car doors are dangerous to cyclists. I certainly know, I've gotten hit by one where the guy got in and started to close it and then changed his mind for some reason and popped it open in front of me. That wasn't a good day.

You're still fear mongering.

Edit: For what it's worth, there are a number of places in the US with head-in parking on streets (we have several such streets here in Portland), where a hatch back would have the same risks as the Model X side doors when parallel parking. Somehow, we've managed to avoid filling the morgues with decapitated cyclists. This risk isn't something novel and new with the Model X.

 

[bonnie]

You're still fear mongering.

Nailed it.

 

[Teo]

All car doors are dangerous to cyclists.

These are different than any other cars doors. You can't hit other car doors with only your face. The front tire, the handlebar, your knee, feet or pedals will hit a regular car door. Here everything else is skipped and the door arrives directly in the middle of your face with the entire force of the impact. Imagine not realizing the open doors in the air for some reason or another. If you are lucky your face would be smashed permanently or much worse will happen.

 

[ckessel]

These are different than any other cars doors.

Indeed, as a cyclist, those look waaaaay safer with a hell of a lot less door to try and avoid. Or I could simply maintain my normal 2-3 feet distance from parked cars and not have any issue...

The X doors extend less than a couple feet from the side of the car. If you're going to hit them, you'd have to be nearly scraping your thighs on the car to begin with.

You can't hit other car doors with only your face.

There are a number of large passenger pickup trucks that would disprove this statement.

 

[Teo]

I could simply duck a little.

You are confusing this with a regular door accident where you see the door opening. It is true that you wouldn't hit an already open regular car door coming from a distance at reasonable speed. So a regular car door would have to open at last moment and give you little time to react. But even then it is hardly deadly because the impact surface is larger and you are not hitting it first with you face. Even if you did (assuming it is a pickup track door) as you move forward with the force of the impact, your face will hit it and then your shoulders and chest.

Here no other part of your body or bicycle hits the door. Only your face will hit it. It is a blade hanging in the air and it doesn't move. It doesn't open in last second. It is already open. I'm talking about an accident where the cyclist rides towards a MX with the door open and doesn't see the door either he doesn't look up or the colour of the car and the sunlight make is less visible or for some other reason he is completely unaware some sharp blade will hit his head. This will be the initial point of impact and the only point of impact.

I think this view below shows the sharp edge of the blade better. If that hits your head it is going to cause a lot of unrecoverable damage. The impact surface is very small which makes the impact more deadly. To understand how deadly this is you could try this experiment. Pick a regular cutlery knife from your cutlery set. Lay it on the table and punch down to it with your fist. This won't hurt. Now leave the knife on the table but turn it 90 degrees so that the sharp edge faces the table and the unsharp but thin side faces up. Try to hit it now and see the difference. Because the impact surface is much smaller it will hurt a lot more. Seriously I would expect a cyclist to die immediately who hits that sharp blade.

 

[ckessel]

You're simply stating the same thing over and over and completely ignoring all posts pointing out that the doors:
- don't extend very far, certainly far less than a normal door
- are highly visible. The idea that someone won't see this door is completely absurd and it's not like the doors sit around open all the time, there will be people getting in and out of them.
- the same problem already exists with open hatch backs parked head-in

This is ban-hammer worthy levels of trolling.

 

[Teo]

- don't extend very far, certainly far less than a normal door

They don't need to extend far. It is far enough to hit a cyclist's head. Normal doors are not a comparison because normal doors are not hanging in the air with empty space below them. Normal doors open in last moment catching you by surprise. The MX door is already open but invisible because it is in the air and you might not see it. One other reason is because it might be getting dark. So I hope they add some lights on it as standard.

it's not like the doors sit around open all the time, there will be people getting in and out of them.

There wont be anybody if people are getting in from the pavement side. Both doors open even when only somebody is getting in from the pavement side.

I suggested reflectors and lights to make them visible. I hope Tesla will do that.

 

[Merrill]

I see this thread being very similar to the request that all EV's make noise. You will always have people who have no clue about anything and want to blame everything that happens to them on something other than the fact that they are stupid. Pay attention and you will not have a problem. I do not get where these comments are going, you do not like the falcon doors then do not buy the Model X.

 

[bonnie]

Both doors open even when only somebody is getting in from the pavement side.

Not true. The doors open independently. There are plenty of videos and photos demonstrating that, it's not some huge secret.

- - - Updated - - -

I see this thread being very similar to the request that all EV's make noise. You will always have people who have no clue about anything and want to blame everything that happens to them on something other than the fact that they are stupid. Pay attention and you will not have a problem. I do not get where these comments are going, you do not like the falcon doors then do not buy the Model X.

Eh, we have a round every week or so regarding 'why falcon wing doors won't work' ... and yet the Model X will have falcon wing doors. So let the noise continue. It hasn't hurt the reservation rate one bit.