Model X optional with non Falcon-Wing-Doors

[bonnie]

I do take the reason for the delay seriously. What's with the need of folks to always assume a hidden reason? Sometimes it just is what it is. And in this case, it makes sense.

Not because I just blindly accept what a company says, but for two reasons: 1) An engineer within Tesla told me last summer that 'if you think there is a team working on the X right now, you're nuts. All hands on deck for Model S', and 2) having run engineering teams for highly complex electromechanical software-driven products, I know you don't start on the next product til the first one is fully stable.

Both support Elon's statement. If I were the X product manager, I'd want to wait til all issues were resolved with the S before committing to a launch date. (And if you see my reaction to the announced delay somewhere in one of these threads, you'll note I wasn't surprised/upset/etc.)

There are so many moving parts for a new company here - new product design, new vendors, new manufacturing line, new delivery process, new new new. As an X reservation holder, I'm happy to let them sort through everything and then get my X ready.

Just my two cents. With all due respect.

 

[TD1]

Even if you don't take the official statement seriously, you have no proof other than your own feelings that the delay is due to the doors. I don't take it seriously either, but I believe it has more to do with cash flow firstly, and taking more time to get it right secondly.

That was just a wild guess, and my personal opinion is also that the delay is cash flow restricted.
But it could be a combination of both.

 

[Teslawisher]

I still think the biggest issue - aside from asthetics, function, roof racks, or what have you - is weather. As Raffy.roma mentioned, snow in Norway (and across a HUGE proportion of the US), and wind-drivin rain (not saying big winds. Just 10-15 mph). Open those falcon wing doors and you have much less protection from the elements than a standard door, and risk water and snow falling into the laps or empty seats as people get in or out.

I personally think the doors are great. I love the function of being able to easily get in and out of tight spaces with them. I look forward to the potential roof-rack solution. Height slearance issues can easily be solved by adjustable door stops. But feel that the weather intrusion point is the biggest factor that will affect most everyone to the greatest degree.

 

[bonnie]

I still think the biggest issue - aside from asthetics, function, roof racks, or what have you - is weather. As Raffy.roma mentioned, snow in Norway (and across a HUGE proportion of the US), and wind-drivin rain (not saying big winds. Just 10-15 mph). Open those falcon wing doors and you have much less protection from the elements than a standard door, and risk water and snow falling into the laps or empty seats as people get in or out.

I personally think the doors are great. I love the function of being able to easily get in and out of tight spaces with them. I look forward to the potential roof-rack solution. Height slearance issues can easily be solved by adjustable door stops. But feel that the weather intrusion point is the biggest factor that will affect most everyone to the greatest degree.

I honestly don't get the weather argument. (And yes, I live in California ... but I grew up in Minnesota. I know harsh winter conditions on a first-name basis.)

So a traditional door does give protection IF the wind is blowing & IF you have parked into the wind, THEN the traditional doors will shield. That's not often. I can't count how many times it took for me to learn to brush snow off the top of the door before opening, because invariably, snow would still fall on my head. Think about how you brush snow off your car ... you get the windshield, the hood, around the top of doors/as much roof as you can reach, the back of the car (okay, sometimes I left snow back there because I was operating under the hopeful theory that the extra weight would help traction). And if you are foolish to park so that the rear of the car is into the wind, those traditional doors not only don't shield, they scoop.

I still used the back 'hatchback' style door, which is really a gull wing, on the back of the vehicle. And as noted above, I've taken shelter under an open hatchback door. Snow/rain typically fall from above.

Wind-driven rain? We're gonna get wet no matter which way the door opens.

Again, just my opinion.

 

[Oyvind.H]

Really hope Model X comes with traditional doors. Those falcon-doors will be worthless in Norwegian winter. Snow and ice all over the roof will make them horrible to operate. Not to mention no roofrack/skibox which I need.

 

[vfx]

...
The EV1 looks still wierd to me with the even front.
View attachment 19752
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One car design does not equal another. Covered here: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/14296-Blue-Nose

 

[NigelM]

In all due respect to Elon, are you really taking his official statements serious?

What else do you expect him to say regards the Model X delay

I based my comment on what I've heard from multiple people inside Tesla. I don't think there's a company wide conspiracy to lie about it.

 

[WarpedOne]

Opinions in this thread clearly demonstrate why a successful company must *never* ever listen to shareholder opinions on what should they be doing.
Try to cater everyone and everyone will live disgusted and hungry.
Designing a car for 20k annual sales is completely different from designing a car that must sell in 200k or 2M per year.

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

I'll bet serious money that Tesla goes ahead with the Falcon doors, and that they will not produce traditional doors as an option. It would cost serious amounts of money to test and certify the two versions separately, and it's very, very unlikely IMHO that this additional investment could be recouped by the price premium attached to one of the options. It's a huge increase in complexity and cost for Tesla, but does not bring the company any commensurate increase in potential profit. That cost/complexity alone will kill the idea.

However, I'm also in favor of the idea on my own. I have kids, and I think the Falcon doors on the X are a bloody godsend. I think they look cool. They'll provide some protection from the rain. They'll allow me to put kids into the car or take them with the greatest of ease, especially in a cramped parking spot where you often can't open a regular door fully and are contorting your body in unnatural ways to try to unbuckle your four-year-old.

I understand that some people won't like them, but I also realize that others will! And my speculation is that the number of people who hate it will be a small fraction (< 20%) of potential purchasers. No car will please everyone, and no sane manufacturer should try. Tesla is IMHO clearly betting on its primary buyers being those who appreciate advanced technology and innovative thinking, with those who prefer "traditional" going to other marques for the first few years.

Remember: when considering both sales and costs, Tesla only needs to convince 20,000 people a year that the Model X is the cat's meow. Maybe 30,000 a year if they boost production. It's entirely OK if a bunch of people choose to buy Audi, BMW, or something else because they don't like the Falcon doors. I just don't the number of people who dislike them strongly will be very high.

And having announced the car this way, I think Tesla will produce the Falcon doors and won't offer traditional doors as an option.

 

[Oyvind.H]

I just don't the number of people who dislike them strongly will be very high.

Tesla will loose a lot of norwegian customers, but that probably won`t matter to Tesla though as we`re a tiny market compared to the US. To me it`s not a matter of dislike. I like the doors, but they will be hopeless in Norway. And I can`t have doors that will be a pain in the ass several months every year

 

[AnOutsider]

Tesla will loose a lot of norwegian customers, but that probably won`t matter to Tesla though as we`re a tiny market compared to the US. To me it`s not a matter of dislike. I like the doors, but they will be hopeless in Norway. And I can`t have doors that will be a pain in the ass several months every year

Curious: why would they be hopeless? Because of the cold weather? If so, why would the joints be more susceptible to ice than normal doors?

 

[Oyvind.H]

Curious: why would they be hopeless? Because of the cold weather? If so, why would the joints be more susceptible to ice than normal doors?

Several reasons.
- You get a very long edge on the roof that snow will fall over and into the car unless you brush the roof totally clean after every snowfall (probably not a good idea if you want to avoid scratches).
- Even thin layers of snow turn into ice that stick to your roof many times every winter. The doors will have to break this ice many times, and if both doors are opened at the same time this ice will be smashed between the doors. Risk of dents. Or you just have to be careful about opening two doors at the same time 6 months a year.
- There seems to be a gap between the door and the roof inbetween the hinges. Snow/ice will force itself into that crack and fall into the seats or get stuck between the hinges.

I do not believe the joints will be more susceptible to ice, but ice will stick to the roof. Wiping the whole roof several times a day (it`s a tall car by european standards!) is no option.

Opening a large part of the roof is not practical in the winter. Love the doors, but they`re no good in Norway.

 

[AnOutsider]

Several reasons.
- You get a very long edge on the roof that snow will fall over and into the car unless you brush the roof totally clean after every snowfall (probably not a good idea if you want to avoid scratches).
- Even thin layers of snow turn into ice that stick to your roof many times every winter. The doors will have to break this ice many times, and if both doors are opened at the same time this ice will be smashed between the doors. Risk of dents. Or you just have to be careful about opening two doors at the same time 6 months a year.
- There seems to be a gap between the door and the roof inbetween the hinges. Snow/ice will force itself into that crack and fall into the seats or get stuck between the hinges.

I do not believe the joints will be more susceptible to ice, but ice will stick to the roof. Wiping the whole roof several times a day (it`s a tall car by european standards!) is no option.

Opening a large part of the roof is not practical in the winter. Love the doors, but they`re no good in Norway.

Fair enough. If they stick around, I'd like to see what Tesla does as far as winter testing is concerned. Hopefully it's more than what they did on the Model S.

 

[Oyvind.H]

Fair enough. If they stick around, I'd like to see what Tesla does as far as winter testing is concerned. Hopefully it's more than what they did on the Model S.

I saw 3-4 Model X videos again now just to make sure I still felt the same way after reading this thread. I admit I see a few positive side effects of having those doors, even in the winter. And I hope my fears are proven wrong if the X only comes with those doors, because I really like the car. Who knows, maybe snow isn`t an iusse? From what I`ve seen I believe it will be. But hopefully I`m wrong.

 

[100thMonkey]

I would be happy with an X like S, add a little more headroom, AWD, bump up the suspension so it's easier for tall folks like us to get in and out. We'd be fine with taking a hit on the range for all that. Take the functionality of the Toyota Highlander with fold flat third row and higher ceiling for bigger boxes/stuff, make it pure EV and AWD with normal doors and rails for a roof rack and we'd sign on the dotted line today. for lack of such a vehicle from Tesla, we will probably be pushed in the direction of a plug in SUV in 2015 when our Leaf lease runs out... the thought of stepping backwards in the ICE direction makes me cringe, but we need a sport utility vehicle that is actually fully functional as an SUV. The S is nearly filling those shoes, it's just a little crazy getting used to taking such a beautiful specimen and doing things like hauling a thousand lbs of gravel in it for home projects, hauling dive gear, kayaks ets in it. Oddly, because the S lacks the falcon wings, it actually has more utility for us already than the X. we hope to return the S to it's intended luxury sedan duties once there is an acceptable EV utility vehicle option.

 

[ohh]

Tesla could add extra heating in the roof, equal to the ones on the rear window. Most of the roof is glass anyway, so it should be no problem in doing so. If connected to the pre-heating system, this could solve the frost/snow/ice problem entirely.

 

[MikeL]

Ooooo, ohh! the first mention of this idea that I've seen. I like it. Don't need heated steering wheel, but heated falcon door hinge? Hmmmm

 

[Teslawisher]

I honestly don't get the weather argument. (And yes, I live in California ... but I grew up in Minnesota. I know harsh winter conditions on a first-name basis.)

So a traditional door does give protection IF the wind is blowing & IF you have parked into the wind, THEN the traditional doors will shield. That's not often. I can't count how many times it took for me to learn to brush snow off the top of the door before opening, because invariably, snow would still fall on my head. Think about how you brush snow off your car ... you get the windshield, the hood, around the top of doors/as much roof as you can reach, the back of the car (okay, sometimes I left snow back there because I was operating under the hopeful theory that the extra weight would help traction). And if you are foolish to park so that the rear of the car is into the wind, those traditional doors not only don't shield, they scoop.

I still used the back 'hatchback' style door, which is really a gull wing, on the back of the vehicle. And as noted above, I've taken shelter under an open hatchback door. Snow/rain typically fall from above.

Wind-driven rain? We're gonna get wet no matter which way the door opens.

Again, just my opinion.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. In my experience where I live... when it rains/snows, a majority of the time, wind accompanys it.

FWIW, I did vote "No" to the poll. Too costly otherwise. But, I just can't seem to get my mind away from this image of trying to strap my youngin's in (or get them out) with snow/ice/rain/water falling onto the seat or onto our heads. I'll be very interested to see if they come up with something to address this. I liked the heated roof someone else mentioned. Something else I can't get out of my mind is when the doors open, some kind of flexible "webbing" (for lack of a better word) that protects the opening of the door on the roof. Like a ducks foot web.

 

[bonnie]

We didn't hear complaints from Model S owners regarding opening the back of the car during the winter & snow dumping in the car ... (and no offense everyone, but we heard a LOT of complaints! ). So owners in the snowy regions ... did you have problems with the back of the car?

 

[PeterK]

I still think the biggest issue - aside from asthetics, function, roof racks, or what have you - is weather. As Raffy.roma mentioned, snow in Norway (and across a HUGE proportion of the US), and wind-drivin rain (not saying big winds. Just 10-15 mph). Open those falcon wing doors and you have much less protection from the elements than a standard door, and risk water and snow falling into the laps or empty seats as people get in or out.

I personally think the doors are great. I love the function of being able to easily get in and out of tight spaces with them. I look forward to the potential roof-rack solution. Height slearance issues can easily be solved by adjustable door stops. But feel that the weather intrusion point is the biggest factor that will affect most everyone to the greatest degree.

As for speed to open and weather exposure - and ease of access in tight parking lots - compare them to power sliding doors which are on hundreds of thousands of minivans. Minivans don't sell as well as SUVs lately because they're not as cool, but we have one and the doors are highly functional - perhaps the best feature if you have young kids.