Model X optional with non Falcon-Wing-Doors

[Oyvind.H]

We didn't hear complaints from Model S owners regarding opening the back of the car during the winter & snow dumping in the car ... (and no offense everyone, but we heard a LOT of complaints! ). So owners in the snowy regions ... did you have problems with the back of the car?

The function and design of falcon doors (and the area around) is quite different from the rear hatch. The rear hatch does not seem problematic to me, but the falcon doors do.
It`s like saying the Model S might be just as aerodynamic going backwards as forward

 

[NigelM]

The function and design of falcon doors (and the area around) is quite different from the rear hatch. The rear hatch does not seem problematic to me, but the falcon doors do.

Please explain how/why. Take a look at the prototype video and it looks exactly the same as a rear hatch.

 

[Mayhemm]

Reading this thread has brought a couple questions to mind:

1) Are the doors fully-powered or power-assisted (to prevent gravity from slamming them down on your head). I have no experience with power doors on minivans.

2) I assume they can be opened one at a time? Having to always open both would be asinine.

 

[MikeL]

Re: the assumption that they will just be a disaster in snow - I'm w Bonnie (a few pages back) - don't you clean off the snow around the door openings? We have full 4 seasons here. Lots of snow. There's a skier on our license plates. If I don't wipe away the snow on the roof, when I open the door, it falls in & lands on the seat. So I clear off the roof, no big deal. I got a tool called a Sno-Brūm (spelling?) It's a soft, but rigid rectangle of foam on a extendable handle. Don't remember where it came from, but I have seen them in the Sky Mall :tongue: ! Scrapes off all the snow (the width of the foam) on one pull stroke, never scratched the paint. It's great! too soft to do ice, but a heater/warmer for the surfaces in that area & the hinge? I want FW doors on my X! ML

 

[Oyvind.H]

Please explain how/why. Take a look at the prototype video and it looks exactly the same as a rear hatch.

- The area left and right of the rear hatch is not flat
- The hatch does not open a part of the roof
- The hatch does not open straight up into the air
- There`s no hatch opposite to the rear hatch that can cause snow to be packed inbetween them

In my opinion there`s a huge difference between the rear hatch and the falcon doors. And the Model X is a tall and wide car, so to brush the entire roof clean every time you want to open your rear doors requires some effort. Of course doable, but not a design I would like on my everyday car.

And I actually found your video a bit concerning. It looks like the hatch can cause water/snow/ice to slide/splas in through open falcon doors.

Again, I hope I`m wrong and if they turn out to work great in winter I`m a future buyer!

 

[GeekGirls]

I'll freely admit that I was concerned about rain intrusion with the falcon-wing doors, but a few months with my Model S has pretty much erased any concerns about the thoroughness of Tesla's design work. Regardless, I think it's a mistake to provide too many options in a vehicle design. Pick a design you believe in and stand behind it. Anything else will result in a compromise where engineering effort is spread around and none of the alternatives works quite the way it should. I'm honestly a little surprised the panoramic roof is optional in the Model S. Presumably that was in order to hit the original sub-$50k advertised base price.

 

[bonnie]

I was out shopping with a friend in SF yesterday & she parked next to a high curb. There was no way I was getting out of the car, I could only open the door max 8" without hitting the curb. Oh right. If I'd had a fw door, I could have gotten out without a problem.

(Of course, I wouldn't have one on the passenger side of the X, only for the 2nd row seating ... but you get my point.)

 

[AnOutsider]

You'd also have air suspension so you could raise it to high.

 

[JohnQ]

As for speed to open and weather exposure - and ease of access in tight parking lots - compare them to power sliding doors which are on hundreds of thousands of minivans. Minivans don't sell as well as SUVs lately because they're not as cool, but we have one and the doors are highly functional - perhaps the best feature if you have young kids.

So, PeterK got ignored and an extension of his post is pretty salient. The falcon wing doors are about "cool." They are a differentiating factor. Sliding doors on minivans are tested, trusted and incredibly convenient. But, they are decidedly "uncool" so get set aside. I understand all the reasons for this and would not argue Tesla consider sliders. But, we should stop kidding ourselves that falcon wing doors are there as a novel solution to a burdensome problem. They are a defining feature of the vehicle design. They are intended to evoke emotions in people--"wow, that's cool"--and help sell the car.

Of course, after saying all that, I still don't believe it's in Tesla's best interest to offer two door styles. Stick with one and either engineer a solution for the roof carry problem or live with the trade off.

 

[aronth5]

....
Of course, after saying all that, I still don't believe it's in Tesla's best interest to offer two door styles. Stick with one and either engineer a solution for the roof carry problem or live with the trade off.

Agree. IMO go with the Falcon wings with the knowledge there will be some engineering challenges that Tesla will solve. I have full faith they will surprise many with their creativity. Any remaining weather related problems that cannot be resolved will be the trade off for the coolness and advantages of the wings.

 

[MikeL]

Oooo, poll is currently EXACTLY 2 to 1 against.

 

[100thMonkey]

I take that to suggest that offering a regular door option could increase reservation numbers substantially, though of course the sample size is too small and not of the general public... if it were larger and of he general public, I would bet a much larger show of hands for regular doors.

Oooo, poll is currently EXACTLY 2 to 1 against.

 

[NigelM]

I take that to suggest that offering a regular door option could increase reservation numbers substantially, though of course the sample size is too small and not of the general public... if it were larger and of he general public, I would bet a much larger show of hands for regular doors.

Hehe, you should be in politics!

;-)

 

[MikeL]

A third is certainly substantial. 'Offer as an option', however is completely different, in practice, from 'deal breaker'. I don't have analysis to offer, and I really don't want to get back into what's a deal breaker or not. I just have a feeling that the FW doors will ultimately be accepted as better, not a compromise at all, & we'll love them. We will have to wait & see. ML

 

[ElSupreme]

I am an engineer. I see two completely opposite sides to this coin. In most cases ONLY ONE is the correct side. Sometimes both ways are correct.

Side A:
Build what you 'know' the customer wants, even when they say they don't want it. Apple does this with most of their products, and have enormous success!

Side B:
Do some market testing, and focus groups. Find out what the customer wants and build that. Most people do this. You normally get a ok-good product but never really anything great or revolutionary.

In my work I do "A" all the time. And about 90% of the time it works out. I get crap for it all along the line, until one day when people get used to it, I get a thankless silence. Now mass producing a product is a little different. But I have a feeling that falcon wing doors will be the next sliding doors if done properly. Stupidly functional and really liked. It may take a while for people to adopt them but I think they will be great. I love my hatch back openings on all my previous cars.

 

[Teslawisher]

Originally Posted by JohnQ
....
Of course, after saying all that, I still don't believe it's in Tesla's best interest to offer two door styles. Stick with one and either engineer a solution for the roof carry problem or live with the trade off.

Agree. IMO go with the Falcon wings with the knowledge there will be some engineering challenges that Tesla will solve. I have full faith they will surprise many with their creativity. Any remaining weather related problems that cannot be resolved will be the trade off for the coolness and advantages of the wings.

This nailed it. There WILL be weather issues for some (alot? not alot? that's a different conversation), but it will be a trade-off for the cool factor and functionality.

 

[AnOutsider]

This nailed it. There WILL be weather issues for some (alot? not alot? that's a different conversation), but it will be a trade-off for the cool factor and functionality.

I agree, though I'd also add that anyone concerned could also just wait a year after the first X's roll out. This would allow time for owner reviews in many climates and for Tesla to issue corrections and updates to issues found in the earlier batches.

 

[PeterK]

This nailed it. There WILL be weather issues for some (alot? not alot? that's a different conversation), but it will be a trade-off for the cool factor and functionality.

If they did not have FW doors then I think the only viable alternative is sliding doors. I could not imagine having kids in a parking lot with swinging doors made of expensive-to-repair aluminum (the dent below on my S left rear door by someone who couldn't stop sliding in snow cost my insurance company over $3000 to replace the door). And access to the third row or to put an infant carrier in the second row would be problematic. I think most buyers would face those situations a lot more frequently than the frozen snow on the roof scenario (sorry Norway members).

Full disclosure, I'm not in the market for an X. With five kids we need a real minivan for our second car.

 

[bonnie]

Another (non-definitive) data point: I did four Earth Day events (!!) over the last week. Thousands of people at each. (I am so talked out.) Besides bringing a few posters (lots of info on battery and pack config, Model S, and Roadster), I also had a binder with maps of available charging points (people always think there is no infrastructure), some interesting articles, and pics of the Model X (since Tesla does not yet have brochures to hand out).

To my surprise, 100% of the people who looked at the fw doors LOVED them. Not a single negative comment. Not a single '"Hmm, don't know how I feel about that." Instead, what I heard was "Cool!", "Look honey how easy it will be to get in the back!" I truly was surprised - even though I have no issue with the doors, it's clear from conversation here that many people do. So I expected a mix of answers. Tesla may have nailed this one.

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

I am an engineer. I see two completely opposite sides to this coin. In most cases ONLY ONE is the correct side. Sometimes both ways are correct.

Side A:
Build what you 'know' the customer wants, even when they say they don't want it. Apple does this with most of their products, and have enormous success!

Side B:
Do some market testing, and focus groups. Find out what the customer wants and build that. Most people do this. You normally get a ok-good product but never really anything great or revolutionary.

Multi-dimensional coin side "C": Build something which the customer does not know, has not anticipated, and cannot yet contemplate but which you have thought through and fully believe is going to provide huge benefits over the status quo ante once it's iterated and evolved a bit. Risky because your vision may simply be wrong, or the market may prove you right a few years after you've run out of money and failed... but potentially the biggest impact of all and at least a realistic option in some cases. Remember what Henry Ford said: "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse."