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Model Y Hot Hatch
- Thread starter qqstormus2
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- Future Tesla Model Y
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
For at least the next ten years, anything that Tesla Motors releases must be something that will sell well in the United States of America, and this form factor is not especially popular here. Hot hatch vehicles are popular in other territories around the world because they represent the epitome of compromise on a multitude of levels. Such compromises are not to be adopted by Tesla Motors anytime soon, if indeed, ever.
That said, the Volkswagen Golf is routinely among the two or three best selling vehicles in the world annually. But it is built and sold by a company that manufactures on the order of 10,000,000 vehicles per year. It will take until at least 2024 before Tesla Motors can manage even half that capacity -- and that's if all their plans come to fruition without any issues at all.
So, no... The idea is not that Tesla Motors would offer these cars, but that they will be able to convince Chevrolet, Ford, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, etc to do so with fully electric vehicles.
That said, the Volkswagen Golf is routinely among the two or three best selling vehicles in the world annually. But it is built and sold by a company that manufactures on the order of 10,000,000 vehicles per year. It will take until at least 2024 before Tesla Motors can manage even half that capacity -- and that's if all their plans come to fruition without any issues at all.
So, no... The idea is not that Tesla Motors would offer these cars, but that they will be able to convince Chevrolet, Ford, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, etc to do so with fully electric vehicles.
Snow Drift
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Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
The Subaru Crosstrek sold 88,927 units in the US during 2015. It is basically what used to be called a 4WD Tall Wagon. It was outsold by the Impreza, Outback, and Forester in its own product line. The Honda CRV, Toyota RAV4, and Ford Escape each sold over 300,000 units here last year. The CR-V and RAV4 each sold over 650,000 units worldwide last year. Those are very popular, as both are in the Top 10 worldwide. And... I'm pretty sure there will be a version of the Model ≡ that will be classified by most as a Crossover/Wagon no matter what configuration the rumored Model Y ends up being.
2015 Year End U.S. Vehicle Sales Rankings - Top 288 Best-Selling Vehicles In America - Every Vehicle Ranked - GOOD CAR BAD CAR
Focus2move| World Best Selling Car in the 2015 - All data
Snow Drift
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Crosstrek outsold the Impreza (88k vs 66k in 2015).
Subaru Of America, Inc. Announces December 2015 Sales As Best Sales... -- CHERRY HILL, N.J., Jan. 5, 2016 /PRNewswire/ --
It is very popular. Subaru, like Tesla, is production constrained, not demand. They sell nearly every car they make, while the rest over produce and use extreme discounting to sell a percentage of their inventory. Subaru is the only automaker to have profits every year since 2008 (only company in 2009).
The Crosstrek is a CUV, Model 3/Y will be C segment sized cars for the masses. You could argue D segment, and then the Forester or Outback is a better comparison. Either way my point was, tall ride height SUV based on a small car platform with similar cult following and demographics (highly educated, high income earners, enviro conscious, active lifestyles).
The epitome of compromise is a performance station wagon.
The smaller footprint of the 3/Y may dictate that the Y be shorter, than the X. A lot would depend on the state of the cell tech.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
Yes and no.
In the petrol world, what are the main differences between a compact hatchback (like the Subaru Impreza 5-door) and a compact CUV (like the Subaru Forester)? Hatchbacks tend to be slightly shorter in the rear, resulting in a cargo compartment with less depth, and hatchbacks also tend to ride lower to the ground for better handling characteristics.
My intuition is that a future Model Y would combine CUV-like space with the lower height and Center of Gravity of a sporty hatch. The closest analog I can think of in the ICE world is the Subaru Forester XTI concept, which was a lowered Forester with a turbocharged engine. So while I wouldn't expect a hot hatch in the traditional sense, I would expect something that is better.
They not only ride lower to the ground, they are not as tall. Traditional hatchbacks are the same height as sedans. Compact CUVs are taller with a more upright seating position. The Ford Focus is a hatchback. The Ford Escape is the CUV version of the same platform. They are quite different.
Agreed, to go after the mass market which is Tesla's mission, Tesla needs to set its Model Y cross hairs on the CR-V and RAV-4
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
Good points on height and seating position.
This actually makes me think that a Model 3 might be closer to "hot hatch" than Model Y, especially if it uses the same lift-back as Model S. The obvious downside of the Model S hatch area is that its long slope means less height for cargo, but this may be offset with greater depth.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
No. You have to read all the numbers. The combined total of all Impreza was higher:
#53 _ Subaru Impreza _________ 100,519
_____ Subaru Impreza __________ 66,785
_____ Subaru Impreza WRX/STI __ 33,734
_____ Subaru Impreza __________ 66,785
_____ Subaru Impreza WRX/STI __ 33,734
See? You can sort the list at this link by the 'Vehicle' column.
2015 Year End U.S. Vehicle Sales Rankings - Top 288 Best-Selling Vehicles In America - Every Vehicle Ranked - GOOD CAR BAD CAR
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Ewwww! That is... Nasty. And not in a good way, either. I would definitely expect something... better... from Tesla Motors.
Has anyone other than Peugeot or Renault actually made a decent Hot Hatch in the past 25 years?
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OK... Sure. Show me the current 'Hot Hatch' version of the BMW 3-Series. Go ahead. I'll wait.
Snow Drift
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While I understand your reasoning, that is not technically correct. The WRX/STI are no longer part of the Impreza line, and their sales figures are reported separately. They don't look alike, don't have the same development team nor are marketed together. The car doesn't even say Impreza anymore. As of MY17 the Impreza will be on an entirely different platform. The current models have differences in their body, lighting, chassis, mounting points, engine, suspension, drivetrain/awd, etc.
The Crosstrek is very popular and outsold the Impreza. This shouldn't even be contested as we know in the US SUV are more popular than sedan/hatch.
This is the 2015 Forester STI...
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Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
GoodCarBadCar lists totals by make and model sold during a calendar month or year. They make no distinction as to the year of the vehicle in question. Only whether it was sold as 'new'.
Honda sells an Accord Sedan and an Accord Coupe -- both are listed in its sales total as 'Accord'. There was once an 'Accord Crosstour' designation. But now the Crosstour is listed separately, with no mention of 'Accord'.
Toyota sells a 'Family' of cars with the name Prius. Most of those are all totaled together for sales under a single 'Prius' banner. But at least one of them is not.
BMW used to combine 3-Series and 4-Series sales totals. Around June/July 2015 they stopped doing that. As a result, the 3-Series total was far lower in 2015 as compared to 2014 -- when it 'beat' the Prius in sales.
Honda sells an Accord Sedan and an Accord Coupe -- both are listed in its sales total as 'Accord'. There was once an 'Accord Crosstour' designation. But now the Crosstour is listed separately, with no mention of 'Accord'.
Toyota sells a 'Family' of cars with the name Prius. Most of those are all totaled together for sales under a single 'Prius' banner. But at least one of them is not.
BMW used to combine 3-Series and 4-Series sales totals. Around June/July 2015 they stopped doing that. As a result, the 3-Series total was far lower in 2015 as compared to 2014 -- when it 'beat' the Prius in sales.
Snow Drift
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Don't know what to tell you. They aren't the same car and shouldn't be combined. Even Subaru lists them separate. They don't combine to inflate the numbers for Impreza.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Gotcha. Just pointing out that some of GCBC's totals may include 2014, 2015, and 2016 vehicles that were sold under the same brand and model during calendar year 2015.
Snow Drift
[Off-Road Assist] Activated
Understood.
Can't wait to see the M3, and someday the Y. Although, I don't know if FWD are really necessary for the Y (heresy, I know).
Understood, you're probably right it's more of a niche vehicle than anything else at least in the US. Even Mercedes doesn't sell the A series models here in the US but they have the GLA models which sits a little higher for the sake of being in that CUV class. I've owned everything from a VW Jetta, to BMW 335d's to Mercedes C class but by far the most fun I've ever had was in my John Cooper Works Mini. Hoping the Model Y, at least falls in line with a GLA (picture for reference) than a RAV-4. Nothing sexy about a RAV-4 or Honda CRV.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
Closest thing is a 3-series Sport Wagon. Too long for a Hot Hatch, but somewhat more practical: http://www.bmwusa.com/bmw/3series/sportswagon
My guess is that the shape of any future Tesla Hot Hatch would be similar to this:
10th Generation Honda Civic 5-door, due to be revealed in Geneva next week, for worldwide market.
From: http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/26/honda-civic-hatchback-spy-shots/#slide-3812931p
It's more of a lift-back than a true hatch.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
~*brack*~ Uhm... That's just the BMW 3-Series Wagon -- with the word 'Sport' added to its name. I do expect there will eventually be a Model ≡ Wagon, since Europe really likes the form factor. But I do not consider any five-door to be a 'Hot Hatch' at all.
And yet another five-door -- NOT a Hot Hatch! BMW's last attempt at anything even remotely resembling a Hot Hatch was the 318ti... Which was so ugly, I don't even want to bother posting a photo.
Yes, I know there are those who are so incredibly masochistic that their eyes tell them the Saab 900 actually looked good... But I am not so afflicted. More often than not, a five-door vehicle looks absolutely atrocious. Hell, the Honda Crosstour looks loads better than the Saab 900 -- and is still FUGLY.
At least Subaru is kind enough to not lie to their Customers. Over a certain wheelbase, you have a Wagon. Over a certain height, you have a Crossover. It's a matter of proportion and scale.
You want a proper Hot Hatch? Look to Peugeot and Renault. Everyone else is just making Station Wagons or 5/8 scale SUVs.
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