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And how do the PUP's 21" tires compare to the non-PUP ones?Nope- basic physics- on which you clearly need a lesson. Don't worry, I'm here for you.
(seriously- buckle up- because everything you think you know about brakes is wrong... I know that can be hard to accept- but it remains the case)
Completely false.
Again, I'm here to help: This is the formula for stopping distance-
d=distance to stop
v= velocity of car
u= coefficient of friction between tire and road
g=acceleration due to gravity (9.80 m/s2)
Notice how it does not ask about your rotors or calipers. Because those don't matter.
Also in any other conditions- because physics.
100% wrong. Because, again, basic physics.
Better TIRES=not slamming into the back of another car.
Because the tires stop the car- not the brakes.
Once the brakes are locked (or ABS is engaged), which the smallest factory brakes can easily do, then more brake does nothing at all for you.
But don't believe me, how bout Brembo?
Here's Brembo- a company with a pretty huge interest in SELLING YOU BETTER BRAKES right? Their FAQ addresses why they don't publish stopping distance tests.
Here's Stoptech/Centric- another company with huge financial interest in selling you BETTER brakes.
https://www.apcautotech.com/getmedi...epaper_A2-Brake-Bias-Performance_8-2018_1.pdf
So that's two of the largest upgraded brakes manfacturers both telling you you are wrong.
STILL don't believe em?
Here's Road and Track- surely they know something about cars, right?
How Changing Tires Can Improve Your Braking & Stopping Distances - How Tires Upgrade Your Braking System
I mean- the TITLE akready tells you Why braking is all about tires
the article itself starts out like this:
You know- just like I already told you.
STILL not convinced?
Here's a guy who has literally written books on braking system design
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1613250541/
He's also designed braking systems for major OEMs and car makers, as well as teaches SAE master classes on the topic.
GRM Pulp Friction
He explains what each individual part of a braking system does... and does not do.
In fact- the bit that Stoptech is quoting in the previous link?
It's from this essay.
Which explains in detail, with math and physics, why your understanding of brakes and stopping distance is factually and entirely incorrect.
For example-
Since every factory-installing braking system can already lock the wheels (or engage ABS in newer cars)- MOAR BRAKE does literally nothing to reduce stopping distance.
There are many things upgraded brakes CAN do for you (the GRM article describes them in fact, part by part) but "stop the car shorter the first time" is absolutely not one of them- and apart from "feel different" none of them are terribly useful outside of a race track where you'll be repeatedly stopping from triple-digit speeds over and over without the brakes cooling down.
Because physics.
The brakes don't stop the car- the tires do.
Anyone who says differently is selling brake upgrades
(and less honestly than Brembo and Stoptech too)
Hope this helps!
brakes brakes brakes brakes brakes brakes brakes@Knightshade Im arguing about your incorrect assertion that bigger breaks
@Knightshade lol I wish I have the time you have.
Too bad your too full of yourself to realize I’m not even arguing against the basic physics you keep spewing out from google. Im arguing about your incorrect assertion that bigger breaks have NO impact on how a car stops.
The car will still stop in exactly the same distance as an otherwise identical car with the standard brakes. The brakes don't stop the car, the tires do.
Only functional reason for "bigger brakes" is fade resistance for situations like "repeated braking from over 100 mph without letting them cool"...
Completely incorrect...
stopping distance is definitely determined by rotor/pad size and the maximum pad force the caliper can produce. Sure in rainy/snow conditions your argument could be true, as the weakest link is the tire friction to the road, but in dry conditions better brakes = not slamming into the back of another car that weaker breaks would not prevent.
And yes I did quite well on compsci as well, built a company around both these disciplines that definitely involve way more complex physics than this
And how do the PUP's 21" tires compare to the non-PUP ones?
Great question! (though these are easily changed later of course)
The Tesla Model Y Wheel and Tire Guide
This reports the 19s come with Conti ProContact RX all seasons... (a good, but not awesome, all season tire)
the optional 20s with Goodyear Eagle F1 tires which are max performance summer tires...and very good ones
The P 21s come wrapped in Pirelli P Zero max performance summers, which are also very good ones.
From head to head testing the P tires are overall better in dry conditions, the Goodyears are better in wet driving....
Specifically in reference to stopping distance though the Pirellis are very slightly better (difference of about 1.6 feet in wet, 3.5 feet in dry)
Full results here:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=218
Regarding future tires (or for someone getting the 19s and wanting the best right away)
The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S is generally considered the best in class tire for street use in non-freezing conditions...(it's what comes on the Performance Model 3) and you can see that against the Pirelli P zero here:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=223
Where the Michelin beats the Pirelli in dry braking by 2.7 feet, and beats it in wet braking by almost 6 feet.
Ok, so what I got out of this is that the 21" Pirelli P Zero Max "Überturbine" summer performance tires are rather good for what they're made for, better than the 20" Goodyear Eagle F1's "Induction" tires, although perhaps not quite as good as the Michelin Pilot Super Sport. And, so long as we're talking about good weather, they're clearly better than the 19" Continental ProContact RX "Gemini" all-season tires.
Based on this, my plans are pretty much unchanged. I'll go with the tires that came with the car until the weather drops to consistently below 40, at which point I'll swap in some proper snow tires. Then, when it warms up, I'll have to decide between taking my original tires out of storage or perhaps replacing them.
It might be nice to upgrade to those Michelins, but I think my main goal would be to move away from the skinny 21" tires to something with a bit of sidewall so that I don't worry about damaging my wheels.
What do you think?
You've probably seen this video about switching from 20" to 18" Michelin PS4S on the M3 to avoid broken wheels from potholes; it's what's motivating me.Well.... the 2 sets of wheels/tires sounds solid to me... (I learned to drive in NY, don't let the NC in my profile fool you)
Personally I'd want smaller/lighter wheels on both sets to avoid (or at least reduce chance of catastrophic) pothole damage- especially up north where the freezing cycles cause more of em... (I'd also want a square setup- that wheel/tire link says the PY comes with staggered wheels)... so if it were me I'd see what the market is for selling the 21s and wrap some nice flow-forged 18s or 19s in the PS4s as a summer replacement.
One thing to be aware of, at least on the 3, due to the different brakes on the P, not all 18s for example fit properly as there's kind of an extra lip there... unsure if that's true of the Y but worth keeping in mind at least.
Porscheporche will definitely stop sooner than a honda civic.
I'm a little reluctant to comment on an emotionally charged discussion, but thought a couple of points may help.
1. Saying the wheels stop the car and not the brakes isn't correct.
The braking system is just that, a system. All of the components are involved. This includes the tires, brakes, springs, shocks, etc. For example, on a bumpy road with bad shocks, the car may take much longer to stop
I agree that the tire friction is the primary limiting factor until your brakes get very hot.
2. Larger or more aggressive brakes help very little if at all on the first 0-60 stop
. Sronger brakes benefit most when the weaker brakes get hot enough that they become the friction limit (vs the tires).
Sandy Munro shows Model Y front (induction) and rear (permanent magnet) motors and a teardown of several EV motors (including Model 3 at 10:45). Sandy states the Model Y motors look "very very similar to Model 3 motors".
I didn't know there is oil and an oil filter for the gearboxes of the front and back Model 3 & Y motors. How often do those need to be changed?
Except, it literally is.
Not at all is the correct answer... again on any modern vehicle.
I imagine you can find generations-old cars with ancient factory brakes that can't even lock the wheels in stock form- upgrades on those could certainly help.
But not on anything made at least this century- and I suspect you'd have to go back at least a decade or two more than that to find many substantive examples.
Why do you keep taking black and white logic to a complex system that does not equate to just basic physics you keep repeating?
I know this must be the limit of your understanding, but that does not mean there is no additional knowledge of physics going on beyond the basic controlled case you keep saying tires are the only thing limiting the system. You keep thinking im arguing against basics physics, im agreeing with you, just merely stating the system is more complex than your basic case.
Here is an example since you wanted one so bad, and why I made the point that bigger BREAKS ;p do have a material impact on stopping distance, especially when it comes to oh *sugar* moments im about to hit a dear or rear end someone.
1) Bigger brakes / pads means less foot pressure needed to exert the same stopping force on the rotor, and since we are slow analog beings in a non controlled circumstance this WILL have an effect on how much sooner the car stops.
2) As you mash on the brakes what is actually happening is your converting kinetic energy into thermal energy...THAT is what is stopping the car, and that occurs due to the friction in the caliper and rotor. If you take the whole physical system into context (and im separating many variables and sub systems in this complex transfer of energy going on as the car is actually stoping) the tires have very small fraction of that energy pie.
James Walker Jr said:Crunching the numbers based on a 275/35R17 tire with a rolling radius of 12.2 inches shows that a force of 942 pounds is generated between the tire and road, opposing the motion of the vehicle
Ladies and gentlemen, this is what stops the car--not the brake pads, not the rotors, not the cool stainless steel brake lines. It's the road reacting against the tire
Your point is only relevant at one extreme case when ABS is engaged due to the tires no longer having enough friction to stop the car, which is the ONLY time tires are the limiting variable ( and yes thats nearly 100% of the time in a controlled 0-60 test).
Due to the majority of the energy being transferred into the rotor assembly this means the rotor heats up at extremely high speeds, this also means the friction coefficient changes at the same rate (goes down as it heats up). If you plot this coefficient over time on honda breaks vs PORCHAAA BREAKS your will find out a material difference
What this means in laymen terms when you combine 1+2 that from the point you realize something dangerous on the roads you will 1) start stopping the car sooner with higher thermal energy transfer if you have bigger brakes, and that thermal energy transfer will effect the stopping force less over time to the point which the ABS system engages and then the physics of tires takes over.
@Knightshade thanks for proving to me that you have a complex so many people are riddled with that they have to be right, even in context where they have no professional knowledge.
Clearly there is no reason to continue explaining to you how the real world works
, you can hide behind your screen and bask in the glory of "proving" me wrong lol
Ill continue to enjoy my Performance Model Y, and know my better brakes have a better chance at not hitting something than your non performance brakes
, just like they do in every other performance car
Oh on a side note want to help me with this, working on my next product and need to choose the right phase margin for this regulator design...clearly you are more versed in physics than me
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@Knightshade thanks for proving to me that you have a complex so many people are riddled with that they have to be right, even in context where they have no professional knowledge. Clearly there is no reason to continue explaining to you how the real world works, you can hide behind your screen and bask in the glory of "proving" me wrong lol
Ill continue to enjoy my Performance Model Y, and know my better brakes have a better chance at not hitting something than your non performance brakes, just like they do in every other performance car and is the reason real engineers put as much work into braking systems as tires.
Oh on a side note want to help me with this, working on my next product and need to choose the right phase margin for this regulator design...clearly you are more versed in physics than me
View attachment 531226
Once the brakes have fully stopped the wheels, it has to come down to the tires. That's physics and there's no avoiding it.I think you should watch this video
Cliffs: "Upgrading your brakes doesn't really make you stop sooner"