My friend's model X crashed using AP yesterday

[Drivin]

I would really hate to be forced to put hands on the steering all the time. That doesn't take us closer to autonomous driving as well.
.

Tesla states that as a requirement for using AP, so I don't know why people think they know better than Musk.

Perhaps when it is no longer in beta that restriction will change.

It is more interesting that people here represented that AP is not to be used on undivided roads where the language above just say it isn't advised. If it isn't to be used than restrict it. Otherwise no need for some legal wording.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I would really hate to be forced to put hands on the steering all the time. That doesn't take us closer to autonomous driving as well.

It's like the car will not start till you buckle your seat belt. Just because some people are irresponsible doesn't mean the rest of the humanity has to suffer.

And a sleeping or drunk driver could as well be holding the steering or sleeping on it but to no good.

It's actually a safety reason why no automaker enforces a hard hands on steering wheel requirement (as in requiring hands on wheels at all times rather than timer based). Lane keeping is supposed to aid a sleepy driver or incapacitated driver. If the car drops lane keeping immediately for hands off, it would have failed to perform that safety feature.

The NHTSA level 2 definition actually says to meet that level 2 standard, the car has to allow both the hands and feet off the controls.

The issue was never about hands on the steering wheel, but rather the driver paying attention while using the feature. You can have your hands (or finger) on the the steering wheel and still be distracted.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Add another one to the list of how to get out of traffic citations:

"The trooper did not cite the driver, saying he believed any citation would be voided because of the driver's claim that the car was on Autopilot."

No that's not correct.

"Montana State Trooper Jade Shope said that Pang received a traffic citation for careless driving due to the accident."

Tesla says that driver didn’t use Autopilot properly in Model X accident in Montana [Full Statement]

No wonder the people on these forums can't agree on anything

 

[Garlan Garner]

Guys, this is no laughing matter. The autopilot warnings are pathetic. The tiny icon that turns from blue to grey is not detectable by color blind people. The hold steering wheel message cannot be seen by people who are staring at the road. There is no obvious visual indication that the AP is trying to get you to hold the wheel (other than a smallish font message).

Laugh all you want, but Tesla really, really should work on making the Autopilot User Interface better.

There is also an audible alert.

If I know that "I" am legally bound to anything my car does (as everyone should be ) .....then I'm not going to let AP run my car into an accident. I ( AP ) could kill someone else. Not only that... I could go to jail.
What is so important that I "MUST" use AP and put myself at risk. It's not even fully baked yet. I wouldn't mind trying out AP when I'm pretty much alone on an easy road, however I would assure you I will have my hands closely hovering over the wheel.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I will say that there could be a wonderful opportunity for AP if I am ever car-jacked. That would be to program AP to some kind of way override any pedal or steering movements and drive itself to the closest PD no matter what.
I could probably think of a way to get this done.
Lets say....I the driver doesn't not push a hidden button every 1/2 hour or so.....the car will automatically drive to a local PD and sound its alarm. Just thinking.....

 

[Matias]

The first alert isn't audible - it's just a miniature warning on the IC. If things go downhill very rapidly, the audible portion could be too late.

Yes. Only small text is visible without any audio alert for several seconds. It is possible, that this accident occurred before any audio alerts were activated.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Yes. Only small text is visible without any audio alert for several seconds. It is possible, that this accident occurred before any audio alerts were activated.

I still don't understand why a person would ever have to be alerted. You are in the car as the "driver". Watching what AP is doing. I just don't get it.

 

[jkk_]

How long does it take for a Tesla to slow down to a stop if no input from driver is received even when asked?

Maybe the 8.0 version will also have a new UI that changes dynamically depending whether you are on AP or not, wouldn't that help with this confusion also?

 

[commonature]

accidents without AP, lets blame it on the weather, road, and other drivers. accidents with AP, lets blame it on tesla, and oh, don't forget to get on an interview with CNN.

 

[NOLA_Mike]

And a sleeping or drunk driver could as well be holding the steering or sleeping on it but to no good.

Yes - perhaps we should require that every car have a breathalyzer installed like the convicted drunk drivers are required to have? Maybe we should be required to prick our fingers and give a blood sample to test for narcotics before we're allowed to start our cars? (These are rhetorical questions and don't require an answer - I know there are probably some that would support such nonsense.)

Where does it end? People need to take responsibility for their actions - stand up and say "I did it, I regret it and I learned something from it". Personally, I have over 20,000 miles on Autopilot from it's initial introduction thru today and I'd be embarrassed to admit I crashed my Tesla while AP was engaged.

Mike

 

[scottf200]

Driver in Tesla Autopilot accident would buy another Tesla
Here was another issue:
"Pang said he did not receive any warning from the car that he was in danger and needed to act, adding that the warnings from his car were in English, and that he speaks Mandarin." <---

Tesla confirms "Autopilot" crash in Montana

The driver in Montana was headed from Seattle to Yellowstone National Park when he crashed on a two-lane highway near Cardwell, at 12:30 a.m. Saturday, said Montana State Trooper Jade Shope. Neither the driver nor his passenger were injured in the accident, but it was serious enough that the car lost its front passenger side wheel.

"It's a winding road going through a canyon, with no shoulder," Shope told CNNMoney. The driver told Shope the car was in Autopilot mode, traveling between 55 and 60 mph when it veered to the right and hit a series of wooden stakes on the side of the road. Tesla confirmed that the data it has from the car shows it was in Autopilot mode, and that the driver likely did not have his hands on the wheel.

"No force was detected on the steering wheel for over two minutes after autosteer was engaged," said Tesla, which added that it can detect even a very small amount of force, such as one hand resting on the wheel.

"As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel," said Tesla. "He did not do so and shortly thereafter the vehicle collided with a post on the edge of the roadway." Tesla said Autopilot is best used on highways with a center divider or while in slow-moving traffic.

"We specifically advise against its use at high speeds on undivided roads," it said. Tesla states clearly in its owner's manual that drivers should stay alert and keep their hands on the wheel to avoid accidents when the Autopilot feature is engaged.

The driver received a traffic citation for careless driving following the accident.

"He still needs to maintain control of the vehicle, even if it's on Autopilot," said Shope, who could not release the driver's name.​

 

[Hitman007]

I don't understand what the problem is with Tesla drivers and auto pilot. As has been said many times, if people would just follow the warnings and instructions in the manual there would be less problems. As far as this guy hitting something on the road, that could happen in any car or truck if you cant see the hazard at night or if you are not paying attention to the road. Especially in Montana where deer can be on the road at any time of day.

 

[James Anders]

I didn't buy AP. I've used it under trial. I realized that AP isn't to the point for even occasional hands-free driving. Things can go south in a fraction of a second. Having to quickly grab the wheel could take precious seconds.

So if I have to always have hands on the wheel I couldn't justify AP - for me anyway. What's the purpose?

I know I'll be criticized for this stance and many use and like AP but there's really no getting around the fact that your risks increase by taking your hands off the wheel. Particularly when you gaze is diverted from traffic situations.

 

[zhenya]

I didn't buy AP. I've used it under trial. I realized that AP isn't to the point for even occasional hands-free driving. Things can go south in a fraction of a second. Having to quickly grab the wheel could take precious seconds.

So if I have to always have hands on the wheel I couldn't justify AP - for me anyway. What's the purpose?

I know I'll be criticized for this stance and many use and like AP but there's really no getting around the fact that your risks increase by taking your hands off the wheel. Particularly when you gaze is diverted from traffic situations.

The same could be said for even standard cruise control, yet people have been using that safely (by and large) for decades. AP should be treated exactly the same as regular cruise control - let the car do some stuff for you - but the driver is still ultimately responsible for paying attention.

 

[ohmman]

So if I have to always have hands on the wheel I couldn't justify AP - for me anyway. What's the purpose?

If you go into AP with the expectation that it's supposed to be hands-free, you'll never understand it. If you go into AP and just ask yourself the question, "is this making my driving experience better", you'll see that it does. TACC has been around for a long time, so those benefits should be obvious. Lane-keeping and lane-changing, which are really what people mean when they say AP, are very useful even with hands on the wheel and focus on the road. When automatic transmissions supplanted manual transmissions as standard equipment on cars, we didn't complain that we still had to put it "in drive". It's just doing a little more for us. I keep my hands on the wheel at all times, and my focus on the road, but I still realize a lot of AP's benefits.

 

[EVie'sDad]

Another enlightening detail
"It said the man - who had identified himself only as Pang - had told a police officer the alerts given by the car had been in English but he spoke Mandarin." - source Tesla says autopilot involved in second car crash - BBC News

Then how did he get a US/Montana drivers license? Isn't he expected to be able to read and understand and accept the EULA when enabling Beta software features, did he just irresponsibly ignore the warnings? I think so...

And in there lies your answer. The driver is, not autopilot, responsible for this accident.

 

[James Anders]

If you go into AP with the expectation that it's supposed to be hands-free, you'll never understand it. If you go into AP and just ask yourself the question, "is this making my driving experience better", you'll see that it does. TACC has been around for a long time, so those benefits should be obvious. Lane-keeping and lane-changing, which are really what people mean when they say AP, are very useful even with hands on the wheel and focus on the road. When automatic transmissions supplanted manual transmissions as standard equipment on cars, we didn't complain that we still had to put it "in drive". It's just doing a little more for us. I keep my hands on the wheel at all times, and my focus on the road, but I still realize a lot of AP's benefits.

I get all that. And for me and for the type of driving I do I wasn't able to justify the $3,000.

TACC is completely different. So are the emergency driver assist features. Automatic trans aren't the same thing.

The difference with AP is that it instills confidence in some drivers to remove their hands from the wheel or pay less attention.

And yes I get the fact that those people are ignoring the safety warnings. But still it's human nature to become comfortable with the technology.

It's only natural to remove ones hands from the wheel or hover over the wheels with your hands to really see that AP is doing its thing.

The purpose of cruise control is to maintain a given speed. The purpose of an automatic trans is to shift gears on behalf of the driver.

AP is much more nuanced. It automatically steers the vehicle and the amount of driver participation isn't easy to convey or explain in my opinion. Yes, it steers the car under certain defined situations but in practice the driver has to be constantly aware and in control. It's not black and white.

Clearly the accidents we've seen weren't due to outright AP failure. The accidents were likely caused by drivers putting too much faith into AP or ignorance of AP's current limitations.

I agree with those that have suggested that more formal training or some kind of screening may be needed. My new MS came with the AP trial.

No one ever went thru the proper usage. It was entirely up to me to research, read and learn. Not a big deal someone like me who reads everything for years prior to purchase, but it might not be adequate for Joe Average who bought a new Tesla. I'm sure we've all experienced people coming up to us and asking, "Is this the car that drives itself?"

 

[June P]

I would like to read over the instructions for AP. I think they should call it something else. Auto Pilot suggests to a careless driver as a technology where you don't need to do anything. I know the instructions tell otherwise and am interested to read what all it can do. I have enjoyed adaptive cruise control's benefits on a car by another maker. This guy drove off the side of the road going 60 mph and is lucky he didn't get killed. What was it about AP that made him think it would stay on the road without his needing to keep his hands on the wheel? I haven't had a car yet that is somehow intended to keep you in the lanes but I think that would be beneficial, as ohmman suggests. Even just looking in the mirror can take my eye off the road and having that additional control for staying in the lane could be helpful as long as I kept my hands on the wheel and didn't try to make the car drive for me. The roads are not yet designed for a future network of self-driving cars.

 

[June P]

Wow, I wish I could edit my post to add paragraph breaks, but posts here don't look like they can be edited. I wonder how Ohmman added his signature line. I'll try to add one.

The content of all my posts are personal intellectual property, and is intended solely for publication on TMC. Do not copy outside of the TMC forum without my written permission.

 

[McHoffa]

Just like with the fires a couple years ago (all 3 of them), the media will milk it for all it's worth, but when it stops drawing clicks/views, you'll never hear about it again. The problem is that I STILL have people who know little about Tesla asking me about how often they catch on fire.