My friend's model X crashed using AP yesterday

[EVie'sDad]

case closed...

A state trooper issued the driver a citation for careless driving. Given the time of night, the vehicle's speed, and the windy road, the officer felt the driver should have been more attentive, MPH told ABC News.

Ultimately, the safety of a car on autopilot is the driver's responsibility, Tesla said. Before autopilot is switched on, the in-car screen reminds drivers to keep their hands on the wheel and to remain prepared to take control at any time.

Driver Whose Tesla Crashed on Autopilot Issued Careless Driving Citation - News-Talk 1110 & 99.3 WBT

 

[Tam]

Wonder if the person who was questioning the driver was speaking English to him and he was able to understand those questions but somehow couldn't understand the warnings from the car because they weren't in Mandarin.

There seems to be communication gap to understand the owner's story from the beginning of the post.

It is possible that someone was translating for him for the interview.

Or they might just barely communicated with a few words.

Or e-mails with Google Translate automation.

In that case, may be the car should have Android Auto so when the car says "All hell breaks loose in 2.5 seconds!" then the driver would shout out in native language for Google Translate

 

[FlatSix911]

Tesla says that driver didn’t use Autopilot properly in Model X accident in Montana [Full Statement]

“This vehicle was being driven along an undivided mountain road shortly after midnight with autosteer enabled. The data suggests that the driver’s hands were not on the steering wheel, as no force was detected on the steering wheel for over 2 minutes after autosteer was engaged (even a very small amount of force, such as one hand resting on the wheel, will be detected). This is contrary to the terms of use that are agreed to when enabling the feature and the notification presented in the instrument cluster each time it is activated.
As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel. He did not do so and shortly thereafter the vehicle collided with a post on the edge of the roadway.
Autosteer, which is enabled via the Driver Assistance tab under Settings, is best suited either for highways with a center divider or any road while in slow-moving traffic. We specifically advise against its use at high speeds on undivided roads.

 

[Hengist]

I've been testing the limits of Autopilot in roundabouts in my town since I got my car and I can tell you things can go sideways in an awful hurry. 0 to 100 real quick, in a bad way. I've always had full understanding that AP should not work in a roundabout -- such experimentation requires your hands to basically be on the wheel ready to react. Autopilot does not have the lack of confidence nearly soon enough to truly be relied upon to re-engage the driver in a timely manner in such circumstances.

The obvious leading indicator to me is AP's ability to see lines on the road far enough ahead to have confidence. This is affected by speed, line conditions, sharpness of the turn, etc.

I think for this reason its pessimism should be increased, and the driver be forced to have at least one hand on the wheel to be active in this scenario where confidence is low (# of seconds worth of recognized lines is below a certain threshold) and risks are high (lack of shoulder, aggressiveness of the turns related to speed, etc).

Roundabouts are very difficult to drive, in general. They have a high cognitive load on deciding when to enter, the proper lane to be in at any time, and the process for exiting to the correct exit. Add to that multi lane or gyratory roundabouts and it is worse. But who is suggesting using autopilot in such circumstances?

 

[James Anders]

It's always been clear to me that autonomous driving (Autopilot) will be held to a much tighter standard than human drivers.

Tesla can show that highway deaths are reduced 90% on average compared to human drivers but that really won't matter. It's expected humans will make mistakes, fall asleep, drive drunk, etc. We've been used to that for 100 years.

The standard will need to be much, much higher than the current state-of-the-art. The media and public will accept 10,000 human driver caused deaths much easier than 100 deaths due to software limitations and malfunctions.

I've frankly been really surprised how pro-active Tesla has been in pushing AP technology while it's still in a relatively early stage. On one hand I applaud them for pushing the technology and getting valuable real-world data but on the other hand there's a fair amount of risk when it comes to public perception.

Let me also add that there's a fundamental dissonance going on here. Autopilot steers the car and keeps the car between the lines, etc.... But if the disclaimer is that you always need to pay attention and keep your hands on the wheel just in case something happens....then is it really "Autopilot"? And yes, I understand the real usage of AP. But one has to admit it's a subtle difference or situation for Joe Average driver to comprehend. Even if you take you're hands off the wheel for a moment - something bad could happen and those fractions of a second could mean the difference between life or death. In reality, one should never remove their hands from the wheel or be distracted by driving. And if that's the case - then what is Autopilot, really?

 

[Tam]

...public perception.

Add another one to the list of how to get out of traffic citations:

"The trooper did not cite the driver, saying he believed any citation would be voided because of the driver's claim that the car was on Autopilot."

 

[Cosmacelf]

This could be my favorite quote from the Montana article--the warnings I didn't get were in the wrong language.

Guys, this is no laughing matter. The autopilot warnings are pathetic. The tiny icon that turns from blue to grey is not detectable by color blind people. The hold steering wheel message cannot be seen by people who are staring at the road. There is no obvious visual indication that the AP is trying to get you to hold the wheel (other than a smallish font message).

Laugh all you want, but Tesla really, really should work on making the Autopilot User Interface better.

 

[Cosmacelf]

In their statement on the Montana accident, Tesla says they specifically advise against AP use at high speed on undivided roads.

Anyone know where they specifically state this? I don't recall reading or receiving such an advice.

 

[Tam]

In their statement on the Montana accident, Tesla says they specifically advise against AP use at high speed on undivided roads.

Anyone know where they specifically state this? I don't recall reading or receiving such an advice.

Where it should be used:

That means no Florida crossing traffic. Only merging in and exit ramps allowed.

If you choose not an ideal road, then it is called "Restricted Roads" and Tesla would restrict your speed:

 

[NOLA_Mike]

Add another one to the list of how to get out of traffic citations:

"The trooper did not cite the driver, saying he believed any citation would be voided because of the driver's claim that the car was on Autopilot."

The article linked at the top of this page states he got a citation. Which is it?

 

[EVie'sDad]

the latter sounds made up, but we will find out, my money is on a citation, given the idiotic way he misused auto-pilot and ran clean off the road. he should be lucky he is not facing vehicular manslaughter charges as some other drivers try to copt out of their responsibility behind the wheel.

 

[Tam]

the latter sounds made up, but we will find out, my money is on a citation, given the idiotic way he misused auto-pilot and ran clean off the road. he should be lucky he is not facing vehicular manslaughter charges as some other drivers try to copt out of their responsibility behind the wheel.

I agree. This reporter might have been confused with his own bias.

 

[Mark Z]

The older style wooden posts and cable in post #37 My friend model X crash bad on AP yesterday indicate a secondary road and the barrier's proximity to the road suggest a curve and drop off. The 4th photo at that link shows railway tracks at the back of the lighted area.

I'm not saying the link below is the location but it fits with a curve, posts and cable, embankment, railways tracks at the bottom, no cell reception, and is close to Whitehall MT in the cell phone screen shot. Sooner or later Tesla will confirm the location of the crash but I suspect it is very much like this:

Google Maps

Excellent find and it deserves another quote above for those who may have missed it earlier.

When this thread was first started I made this comment: "It was the iPhone map photo that zeroed in on the spot that maybe the wrecker towed the Tesla to get it off the road."

My friend model X crash bad on AP yesterday

That is why the confusion. The original location by the OP was most likely where the Tesla was towed to. We now know it wasn't the accident location as later reports surfaced.

Good job everyone. Great thread. Drive safely no matter what vehicle you drive.

 

[scottf200]

Tesla confirms "Autopilot" crash in Montana

The driver in Montana was headed from Seattle to Yellowstone National Park when he crashed on a two-lane highway near Cardwell, at 12:30 a.m. Saturday, said Montana State Trooper Jade Shope. Neither the driver nor his passenger were injured in the accident, but it was serious enough that the car lost its front passenger side wheel.

"It's a winding road going through a canyon, with no shoulder," Shope told CNNMoney. The driver told Shope the car was in Autopilot mode, traveling between 55 and 60 mph when it veered to the right and hit a series of wooden stakes on the side of the road. Tesla confirmed that the data it has from the car shows it was in Autopilot mode, and that the driver likely did not have his hands on the wheel.

"No force was detected on the steering wheel for over two minutes after autosteer was engaged," said Tesla, which added that it can detect even a very small amount of force, such as one hand resting on the wheel.

"As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel," said Tesla. "He did not do so and shortly thereafter the vehicle collided with a post on the edge of the roadway." Tesla said Autopilot is best used on highways with a center divider or while in slow-moving traffic.

"We specifically advise against its use at high speeds on undivided roads," it said. Tesla states clearly in its owner's manual that drivers should stay alert and keep their hands on the wheel to avoid accidents when the Autopilot feature is engaged.

The driver received a traffic citation for careless driving following the accident.

"He still needs to maintain control of the vehicle, even if it's on Autopilot," said Shope, who could not release the driver's name.​

 

[KaiserSoze]

"We specifically advise against its use at high speeds on undivided roads," it said. Tesla states clearly in its owner's manual that drivers should stay alert and keep their hands on the wheel to avoid accidents when the Autopilot feature is engaged.

Translation:

"You're holding it wrong."

Sincerely,
Tesla

 

[omarsultan]

Laugh all you want, but Tesla really, really should work on making the Autopilot User Interface better.

No doubt the AP UI can be improved, but you neglect to mention the repeated alert tones that accompany the repeated warnings on the IC. At some point, drivers need to take responsibility for what's going on in the car--if its beeping at you, some curiosity as to why might be in order.

 

[srini]

No sirs/madams, Autopilot don't require no hand on wheel! Uncle Lebeau of CNBS showed off hands free driving on autopilot launch.
See how he is driving hands free, chatting, looking side ways? I bet this was approved by Tesla to show on CNBS.

First look at Tesla's autopilot technology

 

[ohmman]

No doubt the AP UI can be improved, but you neglect to mention the repeated alert tones that accompany the repeated warnings on the IC. At some point, drivers need to take responsibility for what's going on in the car--if its beeping at you, some curiosity as to why might be in order.

The first alert isn't audible - it's just a miniature warning on the IC. If things go downhill very rapidly, the audible portion could be too late.

I don't know how I feel about all of this, but I think for Tesla's long term survival they're going to need to turn "restricted roads" into an actual restriction, at least for now. Personally, I'm fine with that because I only use AP on highways. I realize others may feel differently, and there are probably some cases where currently restricted roads are safe for AP:

The good news is that even if AP is disabled/restricted in certain situations, data collection and model training can still occur, which means a quicker path to enabling AP in more situations.

 

[Drivin]

Translation:

"You're holding it wrong."

Sincerely,
Tesla

Exactly.

So they are only advising, they are not saying AP is not to be used on undivided roads.

So this person used AP as designed since AP was not restricted

Tesla should at least enforce the hands on the wheel that they state is required.

 

[xkwizit]

Exactly.

So they are only advising, they are not saying AP is not to be used on undivided roads.

So this person used AP as designed since AP was not restricted

Tesla should at least enforce the hands on the wheel that they state is required.

I would really hate to be forced to put hands on the steering all the time. That doesn't take us closer to autonomous driving as well.

It's like the car will not start till you buckle your seat belt. Just because some people are irresponsible doesn't mean the rest of the humanity has to suffer.

And a sleeping or drunk driver could as well be holding the steering or sleeping on it but to no good.