My road trip experience and why the future of EV's depends on it getting better

[gavine]

P.P.P.S. Does it seem stupid to anyone else that we have to refine the gasoline, pump it into a tank, out of a tank, into a truck, burn Diesel to deliver the gasoline to the station, pump it out of the truck into another tank, then out of that tank into a car to burn it? Electricity seems so much easier to deliver.

Well-to-wheel delivery and refinement of gasoline is an unbelievable feat that is taken for granted and I'm always amazed at how relatively cheap it is considering all that is involved. Economies of scale I guess.

Granted, electricity generation at a power plant is also a huge feat, but I agree the delivery is much less complicated and more efficient. Solar changes that dynamic considerably.

 

[MichFin]

"Even if there are 100 superchargers available on my 500 mile drive I still have to stop and charge for a longer period of time than gassing up an ICE. "

The lack of interest for battery swap suggest to me that people don't mind having to charge 30 minutes after driving 3 hours. But the ability of stopping when and where you want to is a much bigger deal. When I used to drive my ICE on road trips it wasn't even a thought to just drive until I have about 40 miles range and then contemplate where I would fuel up. I don't think we need to match that but it needs to get to the point where stupid people can get in the car and worry about recharging after they leave.

 

[dgpcolorado]

The lack of interest for battery swap suggest to me that people don't mind having to charge 30 minutes after driving 3 hours. But the ability of stopping when and where you want to is a much bigger deal. When I used to drive my ICE on road trips it wasn't even a thought to just drive until I have about 40 miles range and then contemplate where I would fuel up. I don't think we need to match that but it needs to get to the point where stupid people can get in the car and worry about recharging after they leave.

Assuming that charging doesn't become as convenient as gassing up an ICEV for quite some time, what if Supercharging stays free? Would that serve as an incentive for people to deal with planned charge stops, as opposed to "just drive the ICE"?

Perhaps someday fast charge stations will be almost as common as gas stations are now and a typical EV range will be 300-500 miles but, in the interim, there are other benefits to driving a BEV and hassling with numerous preplanned charge stops on long road trips. ICE car drivers have learned to accommodate a lot of hassles: gas stops (for local driving BEVs charge at home), oil changes, tune-ups and, in some places, smog checks. Not to mention noise, fumes, and greater fuel cost. There are trade-offs when comparing an ICEV to a BEV.

 

[jaguar36]

"Even if there are 100 superchargers available on my 500 mile drive I still have to stop and charge for a longer period of time than gassing up an ICE. "

The lack of interest for battery swap suggest to me that people don't mind having to charge 30 minutes after driving 3 hours. But the ability of stopping when and where you want to is a much bigger deal. When I used to drive my ICE on road trips it wasn't even a thought to just drive until I have about 40 miles range and then contemplate where I would fuel up. I don't think we need to match that but it needs to get to the point where stupid people can get in the car and worry about recharging after they leave.

Sometimes the time to charge is nice actually, but having to get to a specific spot is not. On my last roadtrip I never minded the time, but the one charger that was a pain to get to was a real irritation.

Other times though I'm just trying to get somewhere and don't want to stop any longer than absolutely necessary. Thats when I take my ICE, and always will unless they can drop the supercharging time to <10mins.

 

[green1]

Sometimes the time to charge is nice actually, but having to get to a specific spot is not. On my last roadtrip I never minded the time, but the one charger that was a pain to get to was a real irritation.

Other times though I'm just trying to get somewhere and don't want to stop any longer than absolutely necessary. Thats when I take my ICE, and always will unless they can drop the supercharging time to <10mins.

The often talked about 20 minutes / 3 hours of driving is not a hardship but it has to be three hours of driving year round even in the winter at minus 30 so if that means that the battery has to be enough to be significantly longer range in the spring and fall to accomplish that then so be it. After 3 hours a 20 minute break is just fine even when you're just wanting to get there you're going to have to stretch, you're going to have to use the washroom, get a snack, whatever. 20 minutes is nothing but they do have to keep it to 20 minutes.

 

[gnelson]

I was totally OK with the trip knowing I'm an early adopter and I knew going into the trip what was going to be involved but most people won't be so open minded.

Early Adopter - Really?
Open Minded - Really?

 

[catmando]

Still lots of empty areas. Right now there are NO chargers from west of Tucson to Atlanta or from Dallas to Nashville. And there are many other areas in dire need of them. I live near Ft. Worth and to visit my sister in Raleigh NC I would have to drop down to Houston and go that way which would put an extra 1000 miles on my trip.

Interactive Tesla Supercharger Map - TESLARATI.com

 

[Steve T]

First trip to a destination city a 'middling' experience

I share concerns about charging availability. I made it to Seattle with what seemed like oodles of miles: 130. But I discovered belatedly that the stations I had planned to use while there were either Blink (you now pay $.49/kWh!), and/or Level 2 (sans a double charger capacity, it takes more than 5 hours to add 100 miles). The nearest (and only) Chademo charger was, of course, out of order. Made me wonder about the private home owners on Plug Share and whether I could leave my car there overnight! The change in fee for service by Blink and others eliminates savings 'at the pump', and requires an extended stay that may not be possible or reasonably feasible if the location is in a parking garage. Pre-planning based on assumptions that the charging station will be online and reasonably priced may not work. But know before you go.

 

[rcc]

What the OP is missing is how batteries will change between now and when EV's are truly mass-market.

I got my S in Dec 2012 - I think that qualifies me as a Model S early adopter. I've done day trips without count, a 10-day >1200 mile roadtrip to SoCal and will be doing a 10-day road trip soon up towards Oregon and the Oregon coast - meaning part of the trip will be off the Supercharger network.

IMO, 200 (real world mile) EV's are the minimum for real road-tripping. I think EVs become truly practical for road-tripping at the 400-500 mile mark. With a 500 mile EV, you don't have to worry about whether your hotel has destination charging if you can find a supercharger sometime the next day. You can skip superchargers because you know that you can reach the next one that's 50-100 miles away and charge there. All your charges are fast because you never have to charge to >80% SOC while you're on the road.

So in a future world where we have more SC's and the range on the cars is 2x or more what it is now, EVs become truly practical cars for the masses. You literally can hop in the car and go because you'll probably have 400+ miles of range in the tank when you leave home and the SC's won't be more than 50-80 miles apart.

And in that world, L2 charging is good for nothing except overnight charging. Even 120KW charge rate might be on the low side.

 

[ThosEM]

All the buzz about Tesla cash burn has me really worrying about whether they can continue to fill out the network in a timely manner, given the other demands on cash for the gigafactory, stores and service centers. The current network is valued at about $140M, probably $150M by now. That sounds like small change compared with a $5B gigafactory, but it isn't totally insignificant, and it's a lot of work to set these things up all over the place, working with lots of different governments and businesses.

I think Tesla should go public with its patents in a more proactive way by, as the OP suggests, selling chargers to anyone who will put one in for them so they can sell the juice and make some money. Tesla might still choose to give power away free at its own chargers, but that doesn't help get a viable business model going that will get us anywhere near the gasoline infrastructural convenience we have today.

Or so it seems to me today...

 

[TexasEV]

All the buzz about Tesla cash burn has me really worrying about whether they can continue to fill out the network in a timely manner, given the other demands on cash for the gigafactory, stores and service centers. The current network is valued at about $140M, probably $150M by now. That sounds like small change compared with a $5B gigafactory, but it isn't totally insignificant, and it's a lot of work to set these things up all over the place, working with lots of different governments and businesses.

I think Tesla should go public with its patents in a more proactive way by, as the OP suggests, selling chargers to anyone who will put one in for them so they can sell the juice and make some money. Tesla might still choose to give power away free at its own chargers, but that doesn't help get a viable business model going that will get us anywhere near the gasoline infrastructural convenience we have today.

Or so it seems to me today...

There is no business model for anyone to install a supercharger and make money by charging for the electricity. They cost much more than CHAdeMO stations so the fee would have to be much more than CHAdeMO, which already isn't cheap to charge at. (eVgo charges $4.95 + 20 cents/minute, for example). Superchargers work for Tesla because it's a marketing expense. If they weren't spending money on building out superchargers they would need to spend money on some other form of marketing to generate sales. This way the owners benefit from their marketing expenses!

 

[gavine]

Assuming that charging doesn't become as convenient as gassing up an ICEV for quite some time, what if Supercharging stays free? Would that serve as an incentive for people to deal with planned charge stops, as opposed to "just drive the ICE"?

Perhaps someday fast charge stations will be almost as common as gas stations are now and a typical EV range will be 300-500 miles but, in the interim, there are other benefits to driving a BEV and hassling with numerous preplanned charge stops on long road trips. ICE car drivers have learned to accommodate a lot of hassles: gas stops (for local driving BEVs charge at home), oil changes, tune-ups and, in some places, smog checks. Not to mention noise, fumes, and greater fuel cost. There are trade-offs when comparing an ICEV to a BEV.

Regarding the 20-minute charge time, I always ask people if they would wait 15 minutes in line at a gas station if the gas were free. The answer is almost always yes. Heck, some people wait that long to save a couple of cents per gallon.

- - - Updated - - -

All your charges are fast because you never have to charge to >80% SOC while you're on the road..

Also, future batteries might not have the taper.....it's possible right?

 

[cpa]

There is no business model for anyone to install a supercharger and make money by charging for the electricity. They cost much more than CHAdeMO stations so the fee would have to be much more than CHAdeMO, which already isn't cheap to charge at. (eVgo charges $4.95 + 20 cents/minute, for example). Superchargers work for Tesla because it's a marketing expense. If they weren't spending money on building out superchargers they would need to spend money on some other form of marketing to generate sales. This way the owners benefit from their marketing expenses!

Not to mention the mass public confusion ensuing when the trip planning feature directs us to charge at a privately-owned (Super-duper?)charger for a fee instead of a genuine, free Tesla Supercharger that would be within range. Since the battery-swap idea appears to have fallen flat, I really do not see charging $30 for a proprietary SuperDuper charge having much going for it.

Maybe in 10-15 years if Tesla and other automakers are selling enough vehicles that do not have free Supercharging capabilities we might start to see something if there are enough potential customers out there, but I am not holding my breath....

 

[Skotty]

There is no business model for anyone to install a supercharger and make money by charging for the electricity. They cost much more than CHAdeMO stations so the fee would have to be much more than CHAdeMO, which already isn't cheap to charge at. (eVgo charges $4.95 + 20 cents/minute, for example). Superchargers work for Tesla because it's a marketing expense. If they weren't spending money on building out superchargers they would need to spend money on some other form of marketing to generate sales. This way the owners benefit from their marketing expenses!

It would be the same as gas stations. Gas stations make very little on gas, from what I've heard. They make most of their money on the convenience store. The pumps are put in as a marketing expense (to steal a phrase) to get people to stop in. So they will be willing to install them if there is a large enough customer base. However, the store owner will still want to at least break even on the "pumps" in operation, so they will want to be able to charge for the electricity use, maybe + a little for ongoing maintenance.

As for superchargers being a marketing expense, I'd be willing to capitulate that making them free is a marketing expense, but I wouldn't undersell the superchargers themselves. IMO superchargers are what makes Tesla EVs useful as real cars. Okay, that's a bit harsh, but without long range transit capability, EVs will never compete with ICE cars. Take a look at a remote stretch of I-70 in the Midwest and count how many cars go by per hour, even in the dead of night. It's a lot. And not a single one of those drivers will ever drive an EV as their only car unless it has a long range fast charging solution.

 

[physicsfita]

Also, future batteries might not have the taper.....it's possible right?

Not really, I'm afraid. Charging works by reversing the chemical reactions that occurred during discharging. As charging progresses, there are fewer of the reactants hanging around, and it becomes harder for them to meet up -- thus, the taper.

 

[jerry33]

Not to mention the mass public confusion ensuing when the trip planning feature directs us to charge at a privately-owned (Super-duper?)charger for a fee instead of a genuine, free Tesla Supercharger that would be within range. Since the battery-swap idea appears to have fallen flat

The only time you'd use a pay-for private Supercharger is if there were no real ones around. Unfortunately, that makes for a poor business case because once Tesla puts in an SC, the revenue stream dries up. The battery swap idea is still in beta, but really it's for commercial users such as taxis and those few who need the charging speed at any price for one reason or another. On my last 5300 mile road trip almost all the SC stops were done before we got back to the car. The only long stops were at the end where there wasn't any good convenient charging so we did a range charge and then 120V at the destination, and the one gap in the journey. 2.5 years ago, there were only RV parks. A bit slow, but they worked just fine.

 

[Half Dollar Bill]

We're days back from a 9,000 mile 22 day supercharger highway road trip and I'd like to offer a few observations:
- Are there places we could have gone if the infrastructure allowed? Sure. Was it an inconvenience for us not being able to get there? Not really because we knew it wasn't possible/practical when planning the trip.
- We arrived at our hotels every night refreshed and relaxed. We didn't feel the need to immediately get to bed; we woke up refreshed and never feeling lagged. I 100% attribute that to having to stop every 2ish hours to stretch legs and take a break.
- Getting from charger to charger, Tesla nav is fine. It can certainly be better. We had a few instances where we ignored it, it barked at us, and we either lived with it or turned it off until it got "right in the head". Others use their cell as an alternate system but I'm comfortable navigating with just the map. Remember that speed is the great equalizer so if the system is telling you that you're not going to make it or it'll be close, slowing down even 5-10mph is often enough to do the trick. It worked for us a number of times.
- I'd argue that the current supercharger station locations are configured to facilitate long distance travel and not so much extended local travel. Will superchargers one day be as ubiquitous as gas stations? If I had to bet today, I doubt it. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so.
- I wouldn't trade the last 3 weeks for anything; I'm itching to get back out there. I'm also itching for Tesla to finish the PA and ME build-outs but that's a different story.
- I'm respectful that the OP jumped in to a big trip being a relatively new owner; I wish I was that brave. It took me a while to get comfortable stringing a few chargers together. There were even a couple times I asked myself if I was being reasonable when planning this recent trip. I finally settled on the philosophy that this was a trip, not a destination, therefore it was fine to embrace it as an adventure. That doesn't work all the time. I respect anyone for making the decision to own the car because it's an unconventional but exhilarating decision.

 

[TexasEV]

As for superchargers being a marketing expense, I'd be willing to capitulate that making them free is a marketing expense, but I wouldn't undersell the superchargers themselves. IMO superchargers are what makes Tesla EVs useful as real cars.

Don't take my word for it, at TMC 2014 a Tesla board member described the buildout of the supercharger network as a marketing expense, and said Tesla would continue building them as long as it was more useful for selling cars than spending it on other forms of marketing. He didn't comment on free or paid, just that the presence to allow road trips that people hadn't taken in years, and may never take, was enough to encourage purchases. We're saying the same thing-- the superchargers are what makes the cars useful as real cars-- and since that's what sells them it's a marketing expense.

 

[rcc]

Regarding the 20-minute charge time, I always ask people if they would wait 15 minutes in line at a gas station if the gas were free. The answer is almost always yes. Heck, some people wait that long to save a couple of cents per gallon.

- - - Updated - - -



Also, future batteries might not have the taper.....it's possible right?

Even if future batteries have the taper, with a big enough battery, you can afford to charge the battery in a way that avoids the taper and still have plenty of range.

Let's assume a 500 mile battery where the taper kicks in at 80% SOC like it does today. That means the taper kicks in at 400 miles. Let's say you drive the car until it has 100 miles of range, then charge. You gain 300 miles of range in an hour before you hit the taper. Or 75 miles in 15 minutes. All as long as you stay at or under 400 miles of range in the battery.

So if you start at 400 miles of range, you can drive 6 hours, do one 45-minute meal and two 15-minute pit stops and you'll end with 400 miles of range in the tank. Repeat until exhausted for the night.

I think the 200-250 mile battery pack paired with supercharging was a game-changer. It made the S a tolerable long-distance car.

IMO, the 500 mile battery pack with supercharging will be every bit the same game-changer. It will make the S a great long-distance car.

 

[jaguar36]

Even if future batteries have the taper, with a big enough battery, you can afford to charge the battery in a way that avoids the taper and still have plenty of range.

Let's assume a 500 mile battery where the taper kicks in at 80% SOC like it does today. That means the taper kicks in at 400 miles. Let's say you drive the car until it has 100 miles of range, then charge. You gain 300 miles of range in an hour before you hit the taper. Or 75 miles in 15 minutes. All as long as you stay at or under 400 miles of range in the battery.

So if you start at 400 miles of range, you can drive 6 hours, do one 45-minute meal and two 15-minute pit stops and you'll end with 400 miles of range in the tank. Repeat until exhausted for the night.

I think the 200-250 mile battery pack paired with supercharging was a game-changer. It made the S a tolerable long-distance car.

IMO, the 500 mile battery pack with supercharging will be every bit the same game-changer. It will make the S a great long-distance car.

With a 500 mile pack you could also double your charging rate. Since the charging rate is really limited by the batteries not by the charger (although perhaps by the electrical grid) double the batteries could double your miles per hour gained.

However I don't think we'll see 500 mile packs for quite awhile. Its generally not going to be worth lugging around and paying for an extra 250 miles of battery all the time, just to save an hour or two on a road trip.