SpudLime
Active Member
Okay. Glad I’m not alone. It just seemed more natural and I don’t think about it when I disengage with the stalk.
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Navigate on Autopilot is Useless (2018.42.3)
- Thread starter wk057
- Start date
Initially I found it awkward to use the stalk to disengage TACC/AP in my Model 3 because it's the gear shift lever. So my initial "muscle memory" feeling was I was putting it in neutral.
It took a bit to get used to.
But, I'll likely never use it to take over control immediately. It's not about time to look for it, but what comes naturally. Normally I'll use the brake or accelerator as that's the most likely control mechanism to immediately correct what's going on.
Why would I flip a stalk first before doing the necessary corrective action?
False braking event? Hit the accelerator
It accelerating way past the speed it should be going for the traffic situation? Tap the brake.
Going too slow around a bend? Hit the accelerator
Getting cut in front of? Hit the brake
A person getting too close for comfort? Use the steering wheel.
Taking over during a lane change? Use the accelerator/brake/steering.
Turn off TACC/AP because I'm now heading down the exit ramp? Use the stalk
Absolutely the most stressful part of EAP is accelerator/braking related. The false braking events alone have changed peoples driving behaviors to where they have their foot hovering over the accelerator.
The steering wheel isn't much better as it's not a smooth take over event with it. If they did driver engagement properly people would be able to use the steering wheel to correct AP on an as-needed basis. But, they use it as a torque sensor so you have play the "how much torque should I apply game".
I don't think we should be allowing a vehicles ADAS technology to change how we drive.
If I did that I'd be driving with my foot near the accelerator and hand on the wheel at the bottom right half with my palm facing down (to prevent nag).
In that position there is no way I'd be able to react to a situation on the road like I would be in my normal driving position.
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diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Used Nav on AP some more today on my regular route (now on 2018.48.12). It is MUCH better. My auto lane change speed is set to "average". It suggested a lane change as normal because of a slow semi in front of me, but I got the red line because of a semi truck coming up behind me in the adjacent lane. So I ignored the lane change suggestion. Nav on AP cancelled the lane change suggestion. A bit later, it recommended a lane change again. This time I accepted since the lane was clear. It made the lane change very smoothly. Then it suggested a lane change back to the right lane which was also very smooth. Then the car took the exit and switched back to AP. It took the exit much better. Probably not as smooth as a human driver but much less oversteering. On the other exit where it had suggested a lane change in the exit lane, it did not do it this time. Again, the lane change was pretty good. Very little oversteering. And seamless transition back to EAP.
Conclusion:
Nav on AP is a lot better compared to 2018.42. I would say auto steer is excellent. Exit taking is decent now but not as smooth as a human driver would do it. Auto lane change itself is smooth. I am not sure about the usefulness of lane change suggestions. The indicator on your nav to what lane to be in to take an exit is fine. But the lane change suggestions to pass slow traffic need to be smarter. If there is traffic coming up behind you in the adjacent lane, it should now not to even bother suggesting a lane change that won't be possible anyway. Also, I have it set to "average" but I still feel like it suggested lane changes when it probably does not need to. For example, it was suggesting lane changes to pass a slow truck just 2 miles from my exit. Why not just stay in the right lane until the exit rather than move to the left lane and then have to move back to the right lane in time to get off? True, I could probably fix this by going down to "mild" but I think it is worth mentioning because on "average", it would be nice for the system to know that you are close enough to an exit that passing slow traffic is not necessary no matter how slow they are going.
Conclusion:
Nav on AP is a lot better compared to 2018.42. I would say auto steer is excellent. Exit taking is decent now but not as smooth as a human driver would do it. Auto lane change itself is smooth. I am not sure about the usefulness of lane change suggestions. The indicator on your nav to what lane to be in to take an exit is fine. But the lane change suggestions to pass slow traffic need to be smarter. If there is traffic coming up behind you in the adjacent lane, it should now not to even bother suggesting a lane change that won't be possible anyway. Also, I have it set to "average" but I still feel like it suggested lane changes when it probably does not need to. For example, it was suggesting lane changes to pass a slow truck just 2 miles from my exit. Why not just stay in the right lane until the exit rather than move to the left lane and then have to move back to the right lane in time to get off? True, I could probably fix this by going down to "mild" but I think it is worth mentioning because on "average", it would be nice for the system to know that you are close enough to an exit that passing slow traffic is not necessary no matter how slow they are going.
You joined these forums a week ago, and you're asserting that I need more experience with EAP to feel relaxed and in control?
When I am about to hit something, I disengage by using the wheel. It is not safer to disengage with the stalk when you are in a safety-critical situation. This has nothing to do with how relaxed I am.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
I'm not asserting anything, I'm making a (hopefully helpful) suggestion that learning the location of the right stalk (so you don't have to think about looking for it) will come naturally with more operating time. At least that was my experience. I'm sorry if I offended you.
And yes, I did join the forum recently. It sounds like you are asserting there is "pecking order" here that I was not aware of? It never even occurred to me.
In the last 6 months I haven't experienced one "safety-critical" event that required wrestling the control back using the steering wheel. But, yes, that option is always available (as is the brake). The thing I don't like about using the steering wheel to routinely disengage EAP is that it leaves TACC engaged. Sometimes I simultaneously use the stalk and take control of the steering/throttle, this has the benefit of also disengaging the TACC without requiring a braking event. But it's true, within the first month or two of using EAP, I didn't naturally know how to disengage the EAP except by wrestling control back with the steering wheel (or hitting the brake). I found that less than desirable and soon learned the stalk was my friend.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
I would like to point out two things:
1) Hitting the accelerator does not disengage EAP (or TACC). I use the accelerator all the time while EAP and TACC are active (and I want them to remain active).
2) Flipping the stalk and taking corrective action are not mutually exclusive. You can do both simultaneously which has the advantage of giving control of both steering and throttle/regen without requiring the application of the friction brakes. If you wrest control back using the steering wheel without flipping the stalk, you still don't have full control of the throttle back because TACC is still active until you flip the stalk or hit the friction brakes.
This really means you likely "take-over" in precisely the same way I do for 90% of the times you do it. Where we want to temporarily take over using the accelerator, and then release control back to it without anything disabling. I imagine neither of us wants the set speed of TACC to change as a result of our use of the accelerator.
My understanding from what WK057 said is that when you take over its adjusting the set speed. Now I still need to test this out a bit with TACC/AP to confirm this behavior.
To me its entirely unwelcome behavior.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
I've never had the set speed adjust itself simply from stepping on the accelerator. When I release the accelerator my speed always returns to the set speed. It's very consistent that way.
That's my experience as well so hopefully this "changing the set speed" is limited to dis-engaging and re-engaging. But, even if it is it's still bad behavior because it should be consistent regardless of how a persons takes over.
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StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Of course, anytime you engage EAP, it will set your speed according to the settings you have set in the EAP setup menu.
The complaint WK057 brought up was the take over event was changing the set speed.
Which doesn't make sense to me.
If you're in AP (autosteer+TACC) and you do a steering control then it simply turns off auto-steer. This means that TACC should still be going at the current set speed.
Then when re-engaging AP it should only be adding auto-steer, and not changing the set-speed at all. That's already active with TACC.
The method of take over shouldn't play any role in the set speed setting. Like I've said before the method of take over is situationally dependent on what we need in that moment. If I have time then I use the stalk as it's clean take over without any brake light flashing (assuming I re-engage the throttle with my foot), and if it's something reaction then I use the control that directly controls what I want to do without even giving any thought to AP/TACC.
I'm a driver that uses one hand on the steering wheel 95% of the time. So I'm not going to disengage AP/TACC at the stalk if I need to steer. I'm going to use my one hand to steer, and then I'll re-engage AP/TACC.
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StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
The "take over event" (wrestling the steering wheel control back) disengages EAP and leaves TACC active, it doesn't change the set speed.
Correct. At least that's how my Model 3 behaves.
No. When you engage EAP it is a new engagement. It follows the rules you have set in the EAP setup menu. It does not differentiate whether you are currently using TACC or driving manually. It is very consistent in this regard.
The method of take over doesn't play any role in the set speed setting. Every AP engagement follows the rules you have set in the settings. Every time. The "method of take over" is only relevant to conditions after the take over. Engaging EAP is a new event and it will behave consistently with the settings in the menu.
This is contradictory to what WK057 has said, but it's not contradictory to my own observations with AP1/AP2.
When I saw the set speed change I assumed it was because I accidentally hit the scroll wheel.
But, WK057 knows what he's talking about. So somehow we're missing something here.
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In your observation when is it changing the set-speed during a steering wheel only take over?
Let's assume the following setup:
The speed limit is 60mph, and will stay that way for the entire duration of this test case.
The set speed in the settings is 10mph over the speed limit
The current set-speed is 65mph (you temporarily adjusted it down from 70mph to 65mph for this stretch of road)
You're currently doing 60mph due to traffic, and a car swerves into your lane and you take over just using the steering wheel.
What's the set speed going to be when you re-engage AP (without disabling TACC)?
a.) 60mph because the set speed is now the speed you were at when you took over
b.) 65mph because TACC has remained active all along, and all you're doing is re-engaging the auto-steer
c.) 70mph because re-engaging AP uses the speed setting in the EAP settings.
My answer before Thursday would have been b or c where I could understand the logic behind either. But, my interpretation is WK057 is saying a.
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There's no pecking order here. I was taking issue with the fact that you assumed that the problem here was that I did no know how my car works or I had not had enough time to get used to it. I own two Teslas, an S and a 3, and I have plenty of experience driving them. I understand very well how they work and have plenty of experience with them. I know how to disengage with the stalk, with the brake, and with the wheel, and I know how all these things worked before the current release and how they work after.
I often hear people say things like this and based on my experience I find it hard to believe. But maybe it's about the roads that I drive on -- typically dense urban highways where people are driving like maniacs. I take over routinely in critical situations -- several times on every commute, and probably at minimum once per week is what I'd call "critical" where I don't want to add even a fraction of a second delay by the slower method of hitting the stalk to disengage.
But this is exactly what I want for most of my Autosteer disengagements. When I want to disengage TACC in a hurry I hit the brake. When I want to disengage Autosteer in a hurry I take the wheel. This is very intuitive to me. When I want to disengage both not in a hurry I use the stalk. Nothing could be simpler -- until this update screwed it all up.
Pressing the accelerator does not disengage anything. What @wk057 and I are complaining about is disengaging Autosteer by turning the wheel -- this used to disengage Autosteer only and leave TACC unaffected. Now it disengages Autosteer, leaves TACC engaged but changes the TACC setpoint to the current speed. And there is no resume-to-previous-setpoint option -- the closest you get is a long pull on the stalk which will reset your speed to the current speed limit (or rather, the car's often incorrect belief about the current speed limit) plus your configured offset.
This is, indeed, entirely unwelcome behavior.
On 2018.48.12, the answer is (a). On prior releases, the answer was (b).
This is particularly obnoxious because often when I take over it's because there's a lot of traffic around and I'm moving slower than the speed limit -- often just a temporary slowdown. It used to be that I would leave TACC engaged through all of it (because unlike Autosteer, TACC usually works quite well) and just briefly (often only for a few seconds) take over steering, and then reengage and everything would be fine. Now I have to remember to reset my speed.
I've found AP2 to be quite horrible at taking highway curves that would rate even a hair beyond gentle. Quite often when it's making a left curve with traffic immediately to the right it will get way too close to the other lane for comfort and I correct this by steering away from the other lane. (Same is true for right curves with traffic to the left.) Oh, and comparing to AP1 like everyone around here seems to loathe for whatever reason, doesn't have this particular issue. I can take the same curves at 90 MPH on AP1 and remain dead center in my AP1 cars.
On AP2, the problem tends to be exaggerated significantly if you have the follow distance set at 1 and there is a vehicle ahead. At some point in the last few months they made "1" be more like AP1's "4". I'm definitely one for keeping a safe distance, but even on 1 with AP2 now it leaves far too much of a gap between me and the leading car for the set speed. This is likely due to poor lane position tracking when a larger vehicle obstructs the view a bit, giving it only the distance between you and the lead car to determine lane geometry. Can pretty much confirm this yourself when you see the short lane markings jumping all over the place when closely following a large vehicle. (AP1 has a similar issue, but doesn't actually affect steering until you're about 0.75 car lengths behind the lead vehicle... where you really shouldn't be anyway. On AP2, the effect is obvious at even 2 full car lengths, and still there at a few car lengths.)
Anyway, suffice it to say I take over with AP2 quite often.
Also, the unannounced "disabled until next drive" BS is *really* irritating me. I've been driving with my hand slightly tugging the wheel while resting on my knee (alternating between hands as this becomes uncomfortable). At least once out of every ~300 miles of driving or so, AP2 will just pop up with the red hands of punishment claiming I ignored warnings, despite having not even received an audio warning in the past probably 2000 miles of driving. *sigh* It's things like my car literally punishing me for using a paid feature that are going to push me to another brand once anyone has a compelling EV.
As noted above, the situation is that when you disengage AP via a wheel turn, TACC gets set to the speed you were traveling at when you disengaged. This is just asinine behavior. Behavior changed sometime between 2018.42 and 2018.48.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Just to be clear, I didn't assume that you didn't know how to use your stalk without "looking for it", that's what you actually said. I thought your words were a very clear admission that you didn't know where the stalk was to disengage EAP instinctually, but had to "look" for it. Apparently I misunderstood the meaning of your words and you can instinctually flick off EAP without thinking about or looking where it is. My apologies.
wk057 - I have a lot of respect for your work. But I see NONE of the issues that you are mentioning. I see that AP2 takes curves perfectly fine and centered - as long as I am no more than 5 miles over speed limit.
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My experience is similar to yours.
One example. A week or two after v.9 was released I drove a ~26 mile stretch of two-lane highway in California that is famous for its curves with EAP engaged the whole time. Set at 5 mph above the speed limit.
Zero disengagements. Zero crossing or touching the center line. Only once did it touch the white line on the right in a very sharp turn (with a wide shoulder).
About 17 miles into the drive we pulled off to enjoy the view. When we pulled back onto the road I engaged Autopilot and my passenger said "what are you doing"? EAP was so smooth and controlled that she had not even realized it was on and driving the whole way. We finished the drive on EAP and pulled off for lunch. I had hand on wheel the whole time and was ready to take over at the first sign it couldn't handle a curve but it wasn't necessary.
Since we kept catching up to traffic and then passing when other cars pulled out to enjoy the view or let us by, I think it is fair to say that Model 3 with EAP handled this stretch of road at least as well as the average driver and probably better (combination of Model 3 handling and EAP steering).
