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Navigate on Autopilot is Useless (2018.42.3)

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Oh god please no. They have no way to do this safely.

Since when has the stopped Tesla from doing something?

Rain Sensing? Instead of using a $5 off-the-shelf rain sensor they went with a Neural Network.

360 degree down facing camera for parking -> Nope, we're going to go with Smart Summon/Park that can't see down.

Rear Corner Radar for side monitoring? Nope, that's going to be a camera too and we're not going to have any redundancy for it.
 
Hopefully it comes with vision improvements because there's definitely blind spots that create uncertainty for auto-lane change. Long vehicles that span multiple cameras don't seem to be handled well, and cars that fill the entire repeater camera's frame go missing or the depth estimation goes nuts. At least if they wait before making a lane change, it increases the chance the vision network will see the car that's right next to you.

What I'm concerned about is HW3 people will get the new fancier Neural Network with vastly improved vision, and the HW2.5 will be left with the same old.

We already know HW3 can do cone detection, and HW2.5 can't.

As updates roll out it seems to be that things are going to be diverge so much so that it might be pointless to talk about a NoA experience with HW2.5 in the same thread as one with HW3.

We're not there yet, but we likely will be in 3-6 months.
 
What I'm concerned about is HW3 people will get the new fancier Neural Network with vastly improved vision, and the HW2.5 will be left with the same old.

We already know HW3 can do cone detection, and HW2.5 can't.

As updates roll out it seems to be that things are going to be diverge so much so that it might be pointless to talk about a NoA experience with HW2.5 in the same thread as one with HW3.

We're not there yet, but we likely will be in 3-6 months.

There is actually some suggestion cone detection is there in earlier versions as well but for some technological combinatory reason they can not render them on-screen yet. That may be completely false of course, but it was something someone heard at an SC.

Not that this diminishes your general point at all: Obviously there will come a time when the NNs and their capabilities diverge a lot based on your hardware version.
 
Do you even use NoA? It has faster and more assertive with nearly every single update.

I try NOA every now and then but always give up on it; see the subject of this thread.

I use automatic lane change often, and it works reasonably well in the conditions in which I use it, and I don't want them to make it less safe by trying to make NOA less of a useless toy.
 
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Drove from NH to NYC and back. I've decided that NoAP is responsible for 80-90% of my annoyance with the car, so I turned it off. It makes so many stupid choices that I really just can't stand it on most trips. If there's no traffic at all, it's tolerable. If there's light traffic, it does stupid crap with staying behind slow cars too long, trying to pass cars that aren't really slow, trying to change into a "faster" lane that is itself stopped, moving to an exit lane anywhere from 2 miles early to a half mile early...it's seriously just frustrating. And if heavy traffic, Tesla has decided that the car not only needs to start moving sooner (fine) but needs to violently jump into motion (not fine).

It's crazy how far Tesla needs to go still, and from Elon's most recent interviews and comments, it sounds like "feature complete" FSD is going to be NoAP on streets. If that's their approach, then we need to see dramatic changes in behavior in the next week or so. They've got a month and a half before FSD is supposed to be "feature complete".
 
Living in Norway NoA is already very limited. But even the things that are supposed to be functional, aren't.

When NoA starts it suggest lane change to follow route to the fast lane even if the right lane is correct, and I am already in it.

"Unsupported tunnel"

Misses exits but slows down on the highway instead which is dangerous.

I first switched off speed based lane changes, but ended up switching off NoA altogether. The highway system here is very small and not complicated so there's no point when it fails at the one single thing I could have used it for : taking exits.

What astonishes me the most, is that despite being alpha/beta, it has no proper user feedback system.
 
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It's crazy how far Tesla needs to go still, and from Elon's most recent interviews and comments, it sounds like "feature complete" FSD is going to be NoAP on streets. If that's their approach, then we need to see dramatic changes in behavior in the next week or so. They've got a month and a half before FSD is supposed to be "feature complete".

"Feature Complete" is just getting the features in. Fixing behavior comes after feature complete. First, you have to get the features in, then you can fix the behavior. Also, Tesla is going to miss their deadline of feature complete by end of this year.
 
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Drove from NH to NYC and back. I've decided that NoAP is responsible for 80-90% of my annoyance with the car, so I turned it off. It makes so many stupid choices that I really just can't stand it on most trips. If there's no traffic at all, it's tolerable. If there's light traffic, it does stupid crap with staying behind slow cars too long, trying to pass cars that aren't really slow, trying to change into a "faster" lane that is itself stopped, moving to an exit lane anywhere from 2 miles early to a half mile early...it's seriously just frustrating. And if heavy traffic, Tesla has decided that the car not only needs to start moving sooner (fine) but needs to violently jump into motion (not fine).

I definitely noticed some of this behavior with auto lane changes not always being super logical. It did not bother me as much as it bothered you. Tesla just needs to tweak the driving policy so I trust they will be able to improve this behavior soon.
 
2019.36.2.1 is for me significantly better on NoA than before.

Previously around Oslo in Norway it always wanted to "change lane to follow route" even though both lanes go the same place. Also there used to be a lot of phantom breaking there. Today both of these have improved a lot and there seems to be no problems.
 
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Also turns where EU rules limit the max steering, it now seems to slow down enough before the turn to be able to make the turn. Previously one had to disengage due to steering limited.

Altough because of the EU rules it needs to slow down ridiculously much in some turns to make it through...
 
Sure, I'll try to make a video of my commute sometime in the near future. It is a decently dense stretch of I-495 (DC Beltway) and I-95, but it's also a reverse commute, which does help somewhat. Still nearly flawless. On a few interventions needed, typically right near a tricky exit to my work, right at the end. Sometimes it wants to get over too early on 495 to make the 95 exit, so I just cancel those on the screen.

I actually used to drive that particular area somewhat regularly (10x year or so) a while back... and man, I could not imagine trusting NoA in its current state to handle things there. Unless it's just dense traffic where it has no opportunity or reason to even suggest a lane change (seems likely given the location). In that case, you're just using lane keeping anyway, which after 3 years of development is finally mostly usable on highways with AP2+, and isn't NoA.

For NoA to be even close to "flawless", IMO it'd need to do at least the following:
  • Hold the lane well while conforming to traffic ahead (normal AP + TACC)
  • Make and execute sane lane change decisions without delay (as in, I should never have to cancel one)
  • Make lane changes to overtake without decelerating, and not merging to the new lane at a speed lower than the current flow of traffic in the target lane.
  • Never attempt or suggest a lane change into an obstacle (it does this frequently in my testing)
  • No unnecessary braking (the phantom braking issue is very real, and a huge issue in every vehicle I've tested NoA in)
  • Take the correct exits/interchanges as needed for a route without error and in a timely manner (merging to the right to be in the correct lane 3 miles before an exit, slowing pace by 20 MPH to do so, is not flawless)
  • I shouldn't have to question every decision it attempts to make as if I'm stressfully babysitting a teenage student driver. The decisions it makes should make sense in the vast majority of cases.
    • For example, I shouldn't have to override a decision within the first few minutes of engaging NoA, which is pretty common. In fact, I override lane changes it tries to make about 2/3 times in practice. This does not up my confidence in the system at all.

Probably many more, but you get the idea. Also, to be truly useful, it can not require hands on the wheel before executing decisions. This just introduces a delay that needs to be avoided, even if hands are already on the wheel. In the real world, that delay can be the difference in a safe and sane execution of a decision, or complete failure to do so.

If I were so inclined, I could quite easily just setup a few GoPros and make a massive compilation of NoA fails with very overall few miles required to do so. It really does astound me that people are singing such high praises for this feature in its current state.

Considering it has barely improved at all since my first post in this thread, I'm inclined to believe that the point of diminishing returns on development with the existing hardware/software is probably already passed (possibly before even being released), and it'll take exponentially longer to actually make this a truly useful feature. I hope I'm wrong, but the evidence is definitely not in favor of much upcoming improvement.
 
Feature complete means beta but there's a lot of behavior that could be considered alpha

True. But I don't consider behavior like the car not changing lanes soon enough behind a slow car or making auto lane changes a bit too frequently to be something that needs to be fixed in alpha. That's for beta and post beta. Alpha is just for getting features in working reasonably well, not optimizing a feature to be perfect. That's done in beta and post beta.
 
I wonder if the slow image processing of HW2.5 is one of the reasons for the slow lane changes.
I also have 2.5 and I agree.. its pretty much useless! Also my screen is super slow and the Nav is very choppy...maps come up a square at a time slowly . The web browser is so bad I never try using. Now the adaptive cruise is very good like most ICE cars are. Funny when I took delivery Nav, Web Browser and even just AP worked much better than now? My build was 9-17 and I only have 18k on it.
 
"Feature Complete" is just getting the features in. Fixing behavior comes after feature complete. First, you have to get the features in, then you can fix the behavior. Also, Tesla is going to miss their deadline of feature complete by end of this year.

I'm not interested in continuing to have the what-does-feature-complete-mean conversation. Because by your definition, NoA has been feature complete for a year and it's still awful. If they intend to release NoA's behavior on surface streets, that's a pretty startling policy. Beta testing with a line following robot on highways is one thing. NoA on surface streets would be utter chaos.

I definitely noticed some of this behavior with auto lane changes not always being super logical. It did not bother me as much as it bothered you. Tesla just needs to tweak the driving policy so I trust they will be able to improve this behavior soon.

It probably annoyed me because it was added on to the fact that lane ping-ponging is unacceptably bad, and navigating curves on the highway still has AP sawing away with the wheel. That's to say turning and releasing, turning and releasing. Constantly through the radius of the turn. If I was in a car with a human driver doing that crap, I'd jump out. Even better, this is with my winter tires, so it's basically unnecessarily wearing them faster.

This isn't a simple matter of tweaking some policy here, and another there. These are fundamental flaws in how the system works. I'm not saying they aren't working toward fixing them, but this is the very nature of the problem of robotic driving systems. Hard rules effectively don't exist in the real world. As an example, if two exits are within half or quarter mile of each other. NoA gets over to the right-most lane a mile early to make sure it can smoothly take the exit. But the exit prior to yours is for a major interchange and always has slow and stopping traffic. You and I would know to go around it, NoAP has no idea and will gladly sit there for an hour in traffic. For any other exit, if you tried to cut in with less than a quarter mile to go, you'd be cutting it too close.
 
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