My comment on cost of options being insane is not about L2 assistance package. It is on other options that these guys nickel and dime you, almost all of it and more comes standard with Tesla
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Navigate on Autopilot is Useless (2018.42.3)
- Thread starter wk057
- Start date
now-now. Looking at X7 (comparing to model X)
Alcantara headliner in a Tesla? no money could buy that. Steering wheel? No money could buy that in a Tesla either. Sport seats? Nope, only one kind of seats in a Tesla, no choice. HUD? nope!
BMW: all of the above for.... $2.9k!
Colors: 13 to choose from including one non-metallic, 8 of them free outside of base. Tesla? 5 options only, of them all non base are extra.
Wheels: Tesla offers you 20" included or 22" for $5k. BMW offers you 4 21" (included in price you can select any one of those) and 4 22" ($1300) and one 23" ($2600)
Interior: BMW offers you 12 seat colors (4 free) and 8 trim colors (4 free). Tesla offers you 3, only black is free. the other colors are more expensive than many BMW.
Same with 5 zone climate control.
options om BMW, I am lost what's what. But there's birds eye view parking that no money could buy for Tesla for example. 5 Zone climate control same story.
For tesla you can add $15k FSD or $6k EAP
BMW ends up costing you $92k:
Tesla (20" wheels, blue paint, black interior, non-plaid, 5 seats, no charger, basic AP, 5 seats) is $123690
So $30k more for a Tesla and yet it's BMW that's nickle-and-diming you of course, Tesla is much more serious about extracting your money
How much is the FSD package in BMW, or the enhanced autopilot that can automatically switch lanes? Hmm I couldn’t find it. Can you help me on that?
Or the package that gives me multiple dash cam views? Sentry mode? Dog mode? Camp mode? Live google map search?
Or the package that gives me multiple dash cam views? Sentry mode? Dog mode? Camp mode? Live google map search?
I have.
I think we need to parse out what they release to customers as a finished product, versus what Tesla releases to customers as a "give it a try, maybe it works". They're two obviously competing styles, with most companies being much more conservative about what they put in customer hands, while still having very capable systems in developer use.
I found HDA2 to be quite capable, and I found it handled extremely basic and common situations like lane lines moving position as lanes merge and split very well. Lane changes also worked quite well, but I don't own a Hyundai or a Kia, so my experience was simply using it on a highway I've used NoAP on countless times and seeing where they shared errors or had different behavior. Auto lane change with HDA2 worked well when I tested it, even in places where NoAP / AP completely bails out and jerks back into the original lane. Something I noticed was that while HDA1 would pick up paving seams running down the road like AP does, and assumed they are lane lines when painted lines are missing, HDA2 didn't have that behavior on the stretch I tested. I also liked that HDA2 didn't force me to be in the exact center of the lane, which is great around here when trucks tend to wander closer to lane markings around tighter highway curves. Toyota's lane center assist is the absolute worst in this regard, because it expects exact middle of the lane and it adjusts steering wheel feel based on where it wants to guide you. Super unnerving.
I think Tesla gets credit where it isn't due here, honestly. There isn't much "situational awareness" honestly, it just boldly does things whether it should or shouldn't, and that seems to convince users that it has emphatically "decided" on an action and it must know what it's doing. This is easy to believe when you contract that behavior against some of the extremely timid behaviors it can exhibit from time to time when changing lanes or doing brake/accelerate/brake rapidly behind other cars.
Yes, there's a stretch of I-93 in NH that was under construction for quite some time, and NoAP refused to remain in the lane you selected, so the system had to be disabled. AP would continue to hold a lane, but NoAP map data indicated the GPS location was wrong for the lane selection logic, so it would try to change. Several times it wanted to exit the highway and try to get back on.
An easy mistake to understand when you know how the system works, certainly. Map data remained stale for a long time, though, even after Open Street Map had been updated for almost a year. That's more of a policy question for Tesla, though, more than a functionality issue. Again, understandable when you know how it works.Yes it was, and I could easily do a cost comparison of an i4 to a Model 3 with the i4 being less expensive with more features, but I've been beaten to the punch. But that is pretty far off topic now for a thread about NoAP functionality.
I thought your question wasn't about ADAS? I guess it was after all. Anyway, auto lane change is included in the base package as I mentioned above.
that "Driver assistance professional" thingie is $1700. It's roughly EAP. stops for traffic lights and such, changes lanes on command and more.
Gets OTA updates that improve functionality (since 2015!)
For "FSD" you can just pay $9k over MSRP to the dealer as a sign of goodwill, still come out ahead
The "the BMW Drive Recorder" is a standard equipment, offers multiple dashcam views. For sentry mode it appears you need to buy a $500 OEM thingie. or you can just buy a 3rd party dashcam which is what I recommend people to do even for a Tesla since embedded dashcam quality is kinda meh. (still better than nothing of course)
You can use google maps and more including on the HUD over carplay and android auto far surpassing what Tesla offers. Also Waze and so on. And it even shows you gas prices as you pass by so you can choose where to "charge" on the cheap, I heard they had a lot of those gas charging places around which makes travel really convenient.
Dog mode and camp mode are just "keep AC on" you can do both (also start remotely, apparently). There would be no message on the screen, but passers by would know it's on because of the big buzzer at the front of the car would alert them it's running
There are definitely two areas of situational awareness that I've seen Tesla do which are clearly programmed in, or at least behavioral rules that read as situational awareness. One is that it will react differently to a car passing through the safety gap in your lane than it does to a car coming in to the lane and staying. If I were going to guess I would say it's based on path prediction. The other is that it will adjust lane position based on adjacent trucks. That one seems to have been coded in years ago after people complained so much about it remaining centered in the lane when next to a truck.
Edit: another example, I was recently on a 45mph two land rural road, and as I came up on a bicyclist, the car automatically slowed to 35 and hugged the center line. I am not enrolled in the FSD beta, just using the standard features. The car also will slow if there is slow traffic in an adjacent lane, which I haven't seen other systems do.
There's a tiny bit more to it than that. Both of those settings will also disable the interior motion sensor (when equipped) and camp mode leaves the 12v outlets enabled. I think there might be a few other small details. Also you assume people are way smarter than they actually are by thinking they will notice the AC compressor running instead of breaking a window to 'rescue' your dog. Mind you that is also easy enough to fix on other cars by printing a sign and putting it up.Dog mode and camp mode are just "keep AC on" you can do both (also start remotely, apparently). There would be no message on the screen, but passers by would know it's on because of the big buzzer at the front of the car would alert them it's running
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i.e. never in North America in case of Tesla? (I guess there's interior radar now, but it does not appear to be used as an interior motion sensor). No idea what sort of interior motion sensors BMW has if any
I am pretty sure in an ICE car the 12V outlets are on all the time when the engine is running (and it is running if you have AC on)
Yes, there's a stretch of I-93 in NH that was under construction for quite some time, and NoAP refused to remain in the lane you selected, so the system had to be disabled. AP would continue to hold a lane, but NoAP map data indicated the GPS location was wrong for the lane selection logic, so it would try to change. Several times it wanted to exit the highway and try to get back on.
I had very similar issues going NB around Londonderry Exit 4. I made lots of tweaks to OSM with little avail. I had not heard at the time that Tesla also uses TomTom map data. Later, I made some speed changes on TomTom that did get accepted and eventually into Teslas.
Re: the comparison between general options between BMW and Tesla (not addressing you specifically since you didn't start that post), I don't think that makes much sense. BMW is a luxury brand through and through. Tesla is a premium brand (often lumped into luxury class due to its price). You buy a BMW for its driving characteristics (enthusiastic //M3 owner here for many years) and the luxury on top of that. With a Tesla, you're buying the battery and drivetrain (expensive!) with some good tech on top of it. Just comparing the options for best bang for buck doesn't make sense when the bulk of the value (IMO) comes from driving characteristics vs EV powertrain.
I am in the camp that NoA is not worth the $$ at all for how it performs today. In my area (metro Boston and southern NH), it can miss exits or handle them very ungracefully. I consider smart summon and autopark pretty much useless. I've tried both, and I stopped using them. I've disabled auto lane change because so many of them make no sense, and the driving culture here often requires surgical lane changing techniques due to aggressive drivers.
That said, I am hopeful that when the FSDb codebase replaces the current NoA code, we'll see a lot of these features improve. At that point, maybe NoA is worth it at its current price.
It's available as an upgrade for $350. Not sure how many people have bought it but it's an option you can get.
Oh you were thinking of running the engine on an ICE? Yeah I would never do that for camping, both for the sake of my camping neighbors and for safety. I thought you were comparing to things like 'Utility Mode' on Kia which is very Camp Mode-like.
you cannot purchase it at the time of purchasing the car (remember the optioning nickle and dimeing that started this comparison?) Or do you want to include content of the entire shop.tesla.com into this list, to show that Tesla can nickle-and-dime people too?
AFAIK on an ICE car (not talking about hybrids) you must run the engine for AC to work since that's what powers the compressor (by direct mechanical energy), without it the best you can do is just the fan motor which obviously does not help all that much if it's actually hot outside.
It still disables the motion sensor, even if it's a very rare option. I said it was a 'tiny bit more' that it does for exactly that reason.
Yes you must run the engine for an ICE to run the AC. Not sure what makes that a useful comparison to dog mode or camp mode, since running the engine usually causes all sorts of other secondary effects. Really the only solid comparison for camp mode or dog mode is with other EVs. I wouldn't run an ICE all night to camp in AC, but would totally leave an EV running the climate on low.
I certainly remember when they released that feature, then removed it, then reintroduced it, then removed it. Initially it straight up swerved but only when you were basically even with the front of the truck portion, completely ignoring the presence of the trailer. It was a sharp movement and was sickening to experience. So the took it off, because it was unbearable.
Then they introduced it again, and it produced a ton of phantom braking events. Perhaps because of some conflict between vehicle proximity and lane edge proximity algorithms. Again, it was removed because it was unbearable to be passing a semi and then suddenly hard brake as though the truck was about to merge into you.
If the feature is present anymore, it's so subtle that it's not even detectable anymore. Vehicle positions in adjacent lanes hop around quite a bit when transitioning from the forward to the side camera fields of view, so my guess is they couldn't accurately place vehicles well enough to keep the feature working. My car doesn't move an inch for vehicles in adjacent lanes, even if they are Semi trucks.
Yep! That's the spot! When they put the temporary lanes in, then removed those and put the permanent lanes in, NoAP was beyond confused. There's also a spot going south on I-293 in Manchester after the Exit 5 offramp and before the Exit 4 onramp weirdness where NoAP map data had an incorrect lane count for so long that you had to disable it or it'd try doing completely nonsensical maneuvers if you needed to get off at Exit 4.
It still doesn't properly take Exit 4, though, or Exit 9S on I-93 in Hooksett / North Manchester because the onramp and offramp are close together.
We are comparing BMW's EV options to Tesla's EV options, though. So, the iX to the Model X and the i4 to the Model 3. They're a direct price comparison, but to your point they are not a direct product quality comparison. BMW makes high quality BEVs for a similar price to Tesla's BEVs.
As of today, I dread that day because it's going to be like when NoAP was initially released. Tesla did a ton of fine tuning on AP very early on for HW2.5 and then HW3 vehicles, and it took about a full year to get it to the point it didn't instantly make passengers motion. FSD beta is so far from anything resembling reliable of ready for public use and I have to imagine even Tesla wouldn't put it on the highway. But we'll see I guess.
My car certainly has been doing it again for a while. It shows in the visualization and matches the visual with an actual move in the lane, and only for things it recognizes as semis (which does sometimes include busses and trucks with trailers). I've confirmed it before by going between two slightly offset trucks, as in that case it stays lane centered until you're far enough up to be next to just one. I remember it coming and going and never found it sickening, but motion sensitivity is very personal. I also don't recall it being lined up with any specific rise in phantom braking, as those events have been at about the same consistently uncommon level for quite a while here.
Using battery power in an EV to run A/C causes all sorts of (different compared to ICE) secondary effects too. I would never run an A/C in my Tesla overnight if I know I don't have enough juice to get back to power if I am camping in some remote place, for example.
It's just a different set of trade-offs.
There's a gauge for that, you know.
Also I'm not sure why you brought up the ICE comparison in the first place when it seems so far off the mark in significant dimensions.
it's a game of tradeoffs either way.
ICE is vastly superior to BEVs in some aspects (lighter (=less PM2.5 emissions), better range, faster refilling, better availability of refilling spots, ...)
BEVs are superior in some other aspects (convenience if you don't travel long distances and have ability to charge as your parking place, no tailpipe emissions, typically better driving dynamics, ability to have onboard equipment to run off the main battery for potentially long time, ...)
On top of this implementations also differ (Tesla is famous for it's terrible quality control and great charging infrastructure, BMWs are famous for their expensive service costs and great driver comforts, ...)
In the end everybody decides for themselves what parts matter to them more and what parts don't matter. You just cannot select all good bits and forego all bad bits, so you do the balancing of what you can do and that's how you find somethign that works in your case. And also sometimes oyu determine that you miscalculated and certain things you value more or less than anticipated, then you rerun the calculation, get rid of the car you are unhappy about and get a different one.
Sure, all that is true.it's a game of tradeoffs either way.
ICE is vastly superior to BEVs in some aspects (lighter (=less PM2.5 emissions), better range, faster refilling, better availability of refilling spots, ...)
BEVs are superior in some other aspects (convenience if you don't travel long distances and have ability to charge as your parking place, no tailpipe emissions, typically better driving dynamics, ability to have onboard equipment to run off the main battery for potentially long time, ...)
On top of this implementations also differ (Tesla is famous for it's terrible quality control and great charging infrastructure, BMWs are famous for their expensive service costs and great driver comforts, ...)
In the end everybody decides for themselves what parts matter to them more and what parts don't matter. You just cannot select all good bits and forego all bad bits, so you do the balancing of what you can do and that's how you find somethign that works in your case. And also sometimes oyu determine that you miscalculated and certain things you value more or less than anticipated, then you rerun the calculation, get rid of the car you are unhappy about and get a different one.
What I don't understand is why you brought up leaving an ICE idling as being comparable to dog mode, camp mode, or even leaving the AC on for any BEV. It's just not comparable. It's as much a non sequitur saying dog mode is comparable to leaving the AC running in your house.
How is it not comparable?
Both keep AC running keeping the cabin at a desired temperature while the car is otherwise unused at the expense of using up charge/fuel. Yes, the implementation differs a little bit, but that's true about ICE vs BEV in general
Try each in your garage for a few hours and let me know how that turns out.
(btw: please don't really do this)
