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Near-future quarterly financial projections

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I know some think this number is too low. I believe you are coming from a Fremont supply constraint POV. I can understand your logic.
I think the numbers will be higher - but let's call this my bear case. Even with these numbers....Tesla is profitable in all quarters in 2020.
I think 99,250 deliveries in Q1 gets us a profit...and that would be awesome !!
I agree with this post. So long as we all concur that all 2020 quarters will be GAAP and non-GAAP positive anything beyond is 'surplus'. That said I am confident taht the Shanghai numbers are far too low. I think considering what we have already seen the highest probability outcome for GF-3 is to reach design capacity during Q2 with Model 3 at 20,000 and model Y incremental at 10,000. After that I fully expect that they will exceed nominal 60,000 capacity with the mix rapidly shifting towards Model Y. By Fourth quarter they should be exceeding the assumed 62,500 vehicles per quarter capacity. We do not need to be that aggressive at all as a base case. Fremont is clearly improving rapidly and the redesign for Model Y plus paint shop improvements will produce higher volumes.

A major factor for GM improvements, BTW, is that shipping to China will dramatically reduce, even for parts as they move to scheduled 100% MIC by Q3. Thus far they're moving much faster than expected, why would that suddenly stop? That seems to me to be unduly pessimistic.

One thing we do know about China parts supplies and production quality is that these tend to be well above industry norms (that comes from the two industry manufacturing people I know, so Tesla should be better). That suggests strongly that overall Shanghai performance will be better than our most optimistic speculation. We might see more fo that in GM than in volume.

Finally, to buttress my case. The same Brasil partner makes Hyundai and Chery. I am reliably informed that the Chery supplies are higher quality, quicker in response and cheaper than is Hyundai. This is apples and oranges except that Hyundai has been doing CKD+ since the late 1970's. Chery has been doing it for four years and was only formed in the late 1980's.

Thus cannot we be more optimistic, even in a base case?
 
@Troy I like that your numbers are conservative.

We have heard rumors already that the Model Y might be using at least one of the model 3 GA lines in Fremont - so it will be interesting to see what happens in Q1/Q2 in terms of model 3 output from Fremont - does it actually fall, not from less demand but simply from less production capacity.

Perhaps worth noting the performance model 3 line (in the tented structure) had additional structures built next to it recently - so it is perhaps not too much of a wild stretch to think that that may be getting repurposed for early model Y production, which actually makes a lot of sense given that particular GA line has less automation by all accounts (easier to build a new model with less automation initially I assume).
 
I'd rethink that assumption. Model 3 was planned to hit 10k/ week on its own while still making S/X. Elon proposed that Y will out sell 3,A and X combined. No way would they set up the Y line in Fremont with that type of constraint. They have also had building permits recently related to the paint shop.
We have no idea what the paint shop changes are. I'd wait for them to spell it out in ER before assuming large increase in paint shop capability. And press too.

I hope they get extensive questions about this in ER.

I'd like to see them add all the new capacity in GF3/GF4 rather than spend a lot of time, capex & effort adding minimal capacity in Fremont.
 
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We have no idea what the paint shop changes are. I'd wait for them to spell it out in ER before assuming large increase in paint shop capability. And press too.

I hope they get extensive questions about this in ER.

I'd like to see them add all the new capacity in GF3/GF4 rather than spend a lot of time, capex & effort adding minimal capacity in Fremont.
Recently, Elon said the 3 body line was designed for 5k and they've improved it to 7k. My take is that the paint shop was sized for the full 10k since you can't just copy paste those, and paint application/ dry time is a fairly known quantity.

Also, as of the Q3 call, they did not expect 3 line disruption, nor 3 demand reduction.
Post with the relevant quotes:
Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the 2019-2020 Investors' Roundtable
 
Also, as of the Q3 call, they did not expect 3 line disruption, nor 3 demand reduction.
All true - but what does that mean ? Would the following be fine ?

In Q4 '19 : 92,550 Model 3s
In Q4 '20 : 92,550 Model 3s + 60,000 Model Ys

In the above no reduction in Model 3 deliveries, so no demand reduction - though 40k Model 3s are made in GF3 and 50k in Fremont. No disruption because reduction of Model 3 in Fremont is not the same as disruption. They will slowly reduce Model 3 production in Fremont - as they increase Model Ys.

Once GF3 and GF4 are operating at capacity, we could have … 10k/wk in 3 factories each. This is 3x increase in Model 3+Y production in 3 years.

In Q4 '22 : 125,000 Model 3s + 175k Model Ys
 
@Troy I like that your numbers are conservative.

We have heard rumors already that the Model Y might be using at least one of the model 3 GA lines in Fremont - so it will be interesting to see what happens in Q1/Q2 in terms of model 3 output from Fremont - does it actually fall, not from less demand but simply from less production capacity.

Perhaps worth noting the performance model 3 line (in the tented structure) had additional structures built next to it recently - so it is perhaps not too much of a wild stretch to think that that may be getting repurposed for early model Y production, which actually makes a lot of sense given that particular GA line has less automation by all accounts (easier to build a new model with less automation initially I assume).

actually after some reflection I don’t think there will be any 3 capacity reduction at Fremont, but maybe no increase any time soon.
 
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Management, quite rightly IMO, likely has no desire to bring forward a one off profit item
Yeah, its not really up to management. GAAP rules are (and the auditor's will insist that) once it is "more likely than not" that the company will be profitable going forward, then the company must declare the accumulated deferred tax allowances on its books. To NOT claim them would misrepresent the true financial state of the company, thus would be a false statement by company Officers, and malpractice by Auditors.

It either is or it isn't. We here at TMC understand that it very likely IS (far beyond a 50/50 chance), so the remaining issue is when the Company makes the call and when Auditors sign off on the decision.

Whether that's 2019Q4, or if they wait to confirm that 2020Q1 is profitable, the day is coming like a steam engine, woo-WOO... $1.81B in deferred tax allowances will be released across the balance sheet and P&L statement, which will be huge.

Read the two case studies posted last weekend over in Main by @FrankSG to see the effect on market cap for Amazon and Twitter after they claimed their respective deferred tax allowances. Its like 2 years of free growth gifted to the company by a gracious tax department (ha!)

Cheers!
 
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All true - but what does that mean ? Would the following be fine ?

In Q4 '19 : 92,550 Model 3s
In Q4 '20 : 92,550 Model 3s + 60,000 Model Ys

In the above no reduction in Model 3 deliveries, so no demand reduction - though 40k Model 3s are made in GF3 and 50k in Fremont. No disruption because reduction of Model 3 in Fremont is not the same as disruption. They will slowly reduce Model 3 production in Fremont - as they increase Model Ys.

Once GF3 and GF4 are operating at capacity, we could have … 10k/wk in 3 factories each. This is 3x increase in Model 3+Y production in 3 years.

In Q4 '22 : 125,000 Model 3s + 175k Model Ys
That is one way to interpret it. But it seems to go against Tesla, Inc. (TSLA) Q3 2019 Earnings Call Transcript | The Motley Fool
Pierre Ferragu -- New Street Research -- Analyst

Yeah, just a quick one on the Model Y. So, I was wondering what you have learned with S and X that make you think maybe when you launch Model Y, you have some cannibalization of demand on the Model 3? And have you started to think about that and how to approach it?

Elon R. Musk -- Founder, Chief Executive Officer & Director

No, I don't think. We're not expecting to see cannibalization of Model 3, one is a sedan and one is an SUV.

Zachary Kirkhorn -- Chief Financial Officer

Yeah, the best comparison we have for that is when we launched Model X and we had Model S at the time.

Elon R. Musk -- Founder, Chief Executive Officer & Director

Model S sales increased.

Zachary Kirkhorn -- Chief Financial Officer

Yeah, and we didn't see any cannibalization there.

Elon R. Musk -- Founder, Chief Executive Officer & Director

The opposite. When we launched Model X, Model S sales increased.

Zachary Kirkhorn -- Chief Financial Officer

Yeah, so that's the best comparison that we have.

Further, GF3 is the SR version, Model 3 is still not available worldwide, and backlogs are huge. If GF3 takes Fremont production 1:1 due to machinery conflict due to Y production, then Tesla would not have put the Y at Fremont. It would also mean they planned to throw away all the body line speed increases they made at Fremont.

Shall we wait and see?
 
Further, GF3 is the SR version, Model 3 is still not available worldwide, and backlogs are huge. If GF3 takes Fremont production 1:1 due to machinery conflict due to Y production, then Tesla would not have put the Y at Fremont. It would also mean they planned to throw away all the body line speed increases they made at Fremont.

Shall we wait and see?
Ideally they should be able to seamlessly switch between 3 & Y in all the factories. This gives them most flexibility and best margins.

Its not about what looks best in Q4 '20 - but what looks best in Q4 '22 when all factories are running at full speed. Its better to invest in production for Semi & CT than incremental 3/Y capacity for NA.

Despite what Tesla said, it is clear to me S&X got cannibalized by 3, esp initially in Q1/Q2. I would not be surprised if Y cannibalizes 3 (CT cannibalizes Y) initially. Cannibalization might be very soft - reducing or stopping growth rather than reducing demand.

ps : As Tesla adds models we should expect the total sales to increase, but with realignment on volumes of each model. With S&X, people stretched their budgets a lot to get Tesla. With 3 available, they no longer would need to overspend to get a Tesla. But ofcourse, some others who usually buy a Camry would spend more to get a Tesla.

Similarly when Y is available, a lot of owners of 3 would add a Y (like me), a lot of people who didn't consider a small car like 3 would buy Y. But there would be some who would have bought 3 but switch to buying a Y.
 
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Despite what Tesla said, it is clear to me S&X got cannibalized by 3, esp initially in Q1/Q2. I would not be surprised if Y cannibalizes 3 (CT cannibalizes Y) initially. Cannibalization might be very soft - reducing or stopping growth rather than reducing demand.

Except before the 3, a Tesla was really expensive. *Of course* when the 3 was released, some people doing a real big Tesla Stretch to X/S would back down to a 3-sized budget. Is there really even a debate about that?

I don't think 3/Y cannibalization would be the same. Maybe some people are today buying a 3 who would prefer a crossover or hatchback, but aren't willing to step up to the size or cost of a S or X. So in the future those people might go for the Y instead. But it's not like legions of people stretching to afford a 3 will suddenly opt for the pricier Y instead.

What's your thinking on the commentary on the previous call, where that they said the introduction of the X actually *increased* sales of the S? That they're lying? Or that "things are different now"?
 
What's your thinking on the commentary on the previous call, where that they said the introduction of the X actually *increased* sales of the S? That they're lying? Or that "things are different now"?
I think at that time S & Tesla were still very new on the market. We had very slow ramp up of X - so we didn't see any cannibalization as any cannibalization was probably masked by organic demand growth.

Even with 3 & Y - we are not taking about actual 3 deliveries dropping after Y introduction. In my conservative slow Y ramp up - the total 3 deliveries keep going up every quarter this year. Infact I think Q4 '20 will see 40% growth over Q4 '19.

teslapd.png
 
Yeah, its not really up to management. GAAP rules are (and the auditor's will insist that) once it is "more likely than not" that the company will be profitable going forward, then the company must declare the accumulated deferred tax allowances on its books. To NOT claim them would misrepresent the true financial state of the company, thus would be a false statement by company Officers, and malpractice by Auditors.

It either is or it isn't. We here at TMC understand that it very likely IS (far beyond a 50/50 chance), so the remaining issue is when the Company makes the call and when Auditors sign off on the decision.

Whether that's 2019Q4, or if they wait to confirm that 2020Q1 is profitable, the day is coming like a steam engine, woo-WOO... $1.81B in deferred tax allowances will be released across the balance sheet and P&L statement, which will be huge.

Read the two case studies posted last weekend over in Main by @FrankSG to see the effect on market cap for Amazon and Twitter after they claimed their respective deferred tax allowances. Its like 2 years of free growth gifted to the company by a gracious tax department (ha!)

Cheers!
Everyone keeps talking about the deferred tax asset, but I am not that excited about it. I'm not saying that they won't release part of the valuation allowance, but I wouldn't count on it this quarter.

I was a financial statement auditor for many years specializing in silicon valley startups, many of which bordered on profitability, so I have a lot of experience with this. It is not black and white whether Tesla will more likely than not be able to utilize their NOL's. There is a lot of judgement involved, meaning there can be many right answers. Because of this, it is up to Tesla's Management team to decide if they think they should release all, partial, or none of the valuation allowance on their deferred tax assets, and present their opinion to the auditors to confirm if they believe it to be a reasonable estimate. As an accountant, one should always lean towards conservatism. Because of this, if I were the auditor, I probably would prefer and advise the client not to release any of the valuation allowance as they have not shown sustained profitability. However if they were very pushy and wanted to recognize part of the deferred tax asset, and made a strong argument for it, I would probably allow them to do this as well. In other words, in some ways, it is up to management as long as they have a reasonable basis for it.
 
Yeah, its not really up to management. GAAP rules are (and the auditor's will insist that) once it is "more likely than not" that the company will be profitable going forward, then the company must declare the accumulated deferred tax allowances on its books. To NOT claim them would misrepresent the true financial state of the company, thus would be a false statement by company Officers, and malpractice by Auditors.

It either is or it isn't. We here at TMC understand that it very likely IS (far beyond a 50/50 chance), so the remaining issue is when the Company makes the call and when Auditors sign off on the decision.

Whether that's 2019Q4, or if they wait to confirm that 2020Q1 is profitable, the day is coming like a steam engine, woo-WOO... $1.81B in deferred tax allowances will be released across the balance sheet and P&L statement, which will be huge.

Read the two case studies posted last weekend over in Main by @FrankSG to see the effect on market cap for Amazon and Twitter after they claimed their respective deferred tax allowances. Its like 2 years of free growth gifted to the company by a gracious tax department (ha!)

Cheers!
Between @Artful Dodger and @The Accountant we've got the winning Superbowl team here! Hurray for the analysis and the teamwork. This will be a most pleasant Q4 if this happens (burn shorts :p [EDITED to be BURN SHORTS AND SHORT MARKET MAKERS!]
 
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Yeah, its not really up to management. GAAP rules are (and the auditor's will insist that) once it is "more likely than not" that the company will be profitable going forward, then the company must declare the accumulated deferred tax allowances on its books. To NOT claim them would misrepresent the true financial state of the company, thus would be a false statement by company Officers, and malpractice by Auditors.

Here is a useful talk on this by pwc.

Valuation allowance for deferred tax assets – the basics

It seems to me Q1 '20 would be a problem in releasing some of the allowance. In general you don't want to release some in a quarter only to withhold in the next. I expect them to start releasing the allowance either in Q2 '20 (if Q1 was profitable) or Q3 '20.
 
Everyone keeps talking about the deferred tax asset, but I am not that excited about it. I'm not saying that they won't release part of the valuation allowance, but I wouldn't count on it this quarter.

I was a financial statement auditor for many years specializing in silicon valley startups, many of which bordered on profitability, so I have a lot of experience with this. It is not black and white whether Tesla will more likely than not be able to utilize their NOL's. There is a lot of judgement involved, meaning there can be many right answers. Because of this, it is up to Tesla's Management team to decide if they think they should release all, partial, or none of the valuation allowance on their deferred tax assets, and present their opinion to the auditors to confirm if they believe it to be a reasonable estimate. As an accountant, one should always lean towards conservatism. Because of this, if I were the auditor, I probably would prefer and advise the client not to release any of the valuation allowance as they have not shown sustained profitability. However if they were very pushy and wanted to recognize part of the deferred tax asset, and made a strong argument for it, I would probably allow them to do this as well. In other words, in some ways, it is up to management as long as they have a reasonable basis for it.
Without contracts in place for future revenue or a sufficient amount of historic financial profits, I would say no VA released for 2019

edit: I do corporate taxes
 
Anyone here has information on whats happening with carb Zev credits? Couple of years ago, these were relaxed and everyone had excess credits, but speculation was this will become much tighter for 2020 and beyond.

Edit: I was reading through the doc below and it feels like market continues to be oversupplied by the older credits, but not a lot.
 

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Here is a useful talk on this by pwc.

Valuation allowance for deferred tax assets – the basics

It seems to me Q1 '20 would be a problem in releasing some of the allowance. In general you don't want to release some in a quarter only to withhold in the next. I expect them to start releasing the allowance either in Q2 '20 (if Q1 was profitable) or Q3 '20.
Thanks - will have a listen. Doesn't the release of the deferred tax profit within a quarter make that quarter profitable? Virtuous circle.

Also, doesn't the Tesla view on "more likely to be profitable than not" have to be in-line with guidance? I can't see Tesla being less than bullish.

There is also the profits from selling calls and FCA payments kicking in. I don't see how any of the near term quarters won't be profitable.
 
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Anyone here has information on whats happening with carb Zev credits? Couple of years ago, these were relaxed and everyone had excess credits, but speculation was this will become much tighter for 2020 and beyond.

Edit: I was reading through the doc below and it feels like market continues to be oversupplied by the older credits, but not a lot.

This search will get you there. In brief, a group of CARB states led by California is suing the Trump EPA over its attempt to roll back emissions regulations.

My impression is legacy automakers are 'slow-rolling' their purchase of credits pending the resolution of the lawsuit. BTW, legacy auto petitioned that same EPA to roll back the California mandate, which has been the state's right under the Clean Air Act since it was passed by Congress during the Nixon era.

Cheers!
 
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