NEMA 14-50 Done Poorly, House Panel Upgrade?

[Big Earl]

Siemens makes good stuff, but I'm not familiar with Murray ... it looks like it's being discontinued.

Murray Connect

The Murray brand will be phased out and replaced by equal Siemens products. This is being done to adjust to changing markets, plan ahead for the future, as well as improve supply chain stability and inventory position.

new.siemens.com

 

[qdeathstar]

My new panel will be Siemens Murray, is that any good?

that’s a cheap panel. I use square D homeline. They are a little better. The best is a square d QO or cutler hammer ch. Going with those could add 500-1000 to your price though.

if you plan on living in your house more than 10-15 years maybe payup otherwise I would just let them use thier panel.

 

[pb2000]

Siemens load centers are decent and Q type breakers (including AFCI/GFCI) are affordable and ubiquitous. It looks like Murray panels will accept Q type breakers, but check with whoever gave you the quote to be sure. Did you also inquire about a 150 or 200A panel? Probably a good idea if your power is from an overhead line, as that's pretty trivial to upgrade.

 

[Uncle Paul]

While everyone wants to get their charging systems installed as cheaply as possible, EV's draw lots of power for long periods of time.

If a permit is required for what you need to do, then avoiding the permit is setting you up for disaster if anything goes wrong.

Insurance adjusters are trained to look for insured taking short cuts and will use every trick in the book to avoid playing claims.

 

[insaner]

While everyone wants to get their charging systems installed as cheaply as possible, EV's draw lots of power for long periods of time.

If a permit is required for what you need to do, then avoiding the permit is setting you up for disaster if anything goes wrong.

Insurance adjusters are trained to look for insured taking short cuts and will use every trick in the book to avoid playing claims.

Correct, I will be getting both my panel and EV charger installation permitted.

 

[insaner]

that’s a cheap panel. I use square D homeline. They are a little better. The best is a square d QO or cutler hammer ch. Going with those could add 500-1000 to your price though.

if you plan on living in your house more than 10-15 years maybe payup otherwise I would just let them use thier panel.

Thank you for your input. I will definitely contact my electrician and get a quote.

 

[insaner]

Siemens makes good stuff, but I'm not familiar with Murray ... it looks like it's being discontinued.

Murray Connect

The Murray brand will be phased out and replaced by equal Siemens products. This is being done to adjust to changing markets, plan ahead for the future, as well as improve supply chain stability and inventory position.

new.siemens.com

Yeah..discontinued, I will bring this up. Thank you!

 

[kishkaru]

I would even go for a 300A panel, if that's possible and you're in for the long term.

I too upgraded my old house from 100A to 200A service when I install solar PV several years ago. After installing 2x 60A outlets for EVSE's to charge 2 EVs, as well as A/C (30A), that's 150A/200A already used just for these 3 circuits. The remaining 50A is used for regular 20A circuits around the house. My panel is now full and electricians are weary of adding any more circuits.

I only had 1 EV when I did the panel upgrade and did not have central A/C, so I didn't think ahead. Now I regret it every day and am even considering upgrading to 300A+. Unfortunately according to electricians, I can't simply swap the 200A breaker for a 300A breaker as the panel itself is only rated up for 200A. And as you found out, the cost for another panel upgrade to 300A is in the thousands of $ and financially, I can't justify it since I just did an upgrade to 200A recently.

 

[Big Earl]

I would even go for a 300A panel, if that's possible and you're in for the long term.

I too upgraded my old house from 100A to 200A service when I install solar PV several years ago. After installing 2x 60A outlets for EVSE's to charge 2 EVs, as well as A/C (30A), that's 150A/200A already used just for these 3 circuits. The remaining 50A is used for regular 20A circuits around the house. My panel is now full and electricians are weary of adding any more circuits.

I only had 1 EV when I did the panel upgrade and did not have central A/C, so I didn't think ahead. Now I regret it every day and am even considering upgrading to 300A+. Unfortunately according to electricians, I can't simply swap the 200A breaker for a 300A breaker as the panel itself is only rated up for 200A. And as you found out, the cost for another panel upgrade to 300A is in the thousands of $ and financially, I can't justify it since I just did an upgrade to 200A recently.

How many miles do you drive in a day and/or how short is your off-peak rate period to make 60 amp circuits for both cars necessary? We have two Tesla wall connectors that share a 50 amp circuit with no issues... only need to charge every second or third day.

 

[kishkaru]

I think there's two separate concerns here:

1) 50A vs 60A circuit
From a cost difference, it's negligible. From an electricans point of few, both uses 6 gauge wire and the breaker costs for 50A vs 60A is the same. The only difference is on the other end of the circuit whether you put a receptacle, hardwire, or subpanel.

2) 1x 60A circuit vs 2x 60A circuit
Multiple EVs sharing the same circuit has some considerations. First, you need two identical EVSEs (like Tesla WC or JuiceBox) that's able to load share. Secondly, you would need to trust said EVSEs to remember their load sharing setting. If they accidentally reset, you'll be pulling 120A from a 60A circuit which is not good. Third, it's a convenience thing. I know that I can plug in both of my vehicles at any time of day and get the full power to each. If you have two working people in a household that drive a significant amount of miles per day, it's worth it to have two separate circuits so you're not limiting yourself.

As for my specific schedule, I drive 100 mi daily round trip, which is roughly 30 kWh per day. I also work night shift, so the off-peak rates are not kind to me. I need to recharge as soon as possible when I come home in the morning before on-peak rates start. If you only need to charge once every 2-3 days, that's great. The nearest supercharger to me is 20 miles away (40 mi round trip), so its even more important to have the fastest solutions at home.

 

[Rocky_H]

1) 50A vs 60A circuit
From a cost difference, it's negligible. From an electricans point of few, both uses 6 gauge wire and the breaker costs for 50A vs 60A is the same. The only difference is on the other end of the circuit whether you put a receptacle, hardwire, or subpanel.

Let's not give bad info, please. These would not necessarily be the same wire gauge. If it's running cable inside walls, where you would use NM-B Romex cable, they are not the same gauge. You could use 6 gauge for a 50A circuit, but that won't be allowed for a 60A. If it's separate wires in conduit, then yes, 6 gauge would be allowed for either 50A or 60A.

If they accidentally reset, you'll be pulling 120A from a 60A circuit which is not good.

You are assuming that they would automatically fall back to running at their maximum setting if they lost communication. I don't know if every model of EVSE would be set up like that. That would seem like an unwise default mechanism, so let's hope most are not built that way.

 

[kishkaru]

Yes, mine is 4x individual 6 gauge wires in 3/4" conduit going through the attic to the garage. I'm not sure what the code is for a single NM-B cable going through walls.
I would presume most electricians would prefer to use 6 gauge individual wires in conduit vs 4 gauge NM-B wire, as its much cheaper and easier to work with. Although I don't know of installing conduit inside a wall is a thing.

 

[Dave EV]

Siemens makes good stuff, but I'm not familiar with Murray ... it looks like it's being discontinued.

Murray Connect

From what I understand, while the brand is being discontinued, Siemens will continue to make Murray equivalent/compatible products under the Siemens name.

 

[Rocky_H]

I'm not sure what the code is for a single NM-B cable going through walls.

Code is...that that's what NM-B is for. You can use NM-B without needing to deal with conduit at all.

I would presume most electricians would prefer to use 6 gauge individual wires in conduit vs 4 gauge NM-B wire, as its much cheaper and easier to work with. Although I don't know of installing conduit inside a wall is a thing.

?? Why would having to buy and form and cut and mount and install conduit...be cheaper? Trying to put conduit inside walls is a pain and is why it's usually not done and is why NM-B exists. With conduit, you usually would have to tear off the sheet rock to get in there to put it in and then have to replace/repair/tape/paint or whatever to fix up the wall again. The whole point of NM-B is how simple and easy and cheap it is if you just need to run it up through a wall, above a ceiling and then down through a wall. It takes WAAAY less time than dealing with conduit, which is going to equal a lot of labor cost savings.

 

[tbwnm]

Yeah..discontinued, I will bring this up. Thank you!

What ended up happening with your panel upgrade? I'm also in the Los Angles area (near Pasadena) and have received 4 estimates from licensed electricians to upgrade from a 100 to 200 amp panel (I already have the meter spot). The estimates I received for the panel upgrade included a 50amp breaker with 70ft 6 AWG/Romex cable run from the new panel through the crawl space and mounting a Nema 14-50 receptacle in a weatherproof box where our driveway is located. Estimates ranged from $3,400 to $4,300 for more or less the same job from what I can tell (including permits). I was surprised how inconsistent (and at times challenging!) communication has been. Four other electricians I met with and/or emailed pictures (to make it easier for them to bid so they didn't have to come out) never responded or provided estimates (even after I followed up) and some seemed incapable of responding to email or texts. One Electrician told me a "solar ready" Siemens panel cost $140 more than a non solar ready panel. Does this sound right to anyone (we don't have solar currently but may upgrade in the future)? Another mentioned the Murray panel, but from I understand from this thread, Murray has now been rebranded to Siemens. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!