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Nissan Asks “How Much of a Premium Would You Pay For a 150-Mile EPA-Rated LEAF?”
- Thread starter RobStark
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- Electric Vehicles
omgwtfbyobbq
Active Member
ABG reported it was $9000/$375/kWh as of May 2010.
Report: Nissan Leaf battery pack costs only 6,000 ($9,000) or $375/kWh!
This seems likely since I can purchase large format Lithium batteries from various off and onshore suppliers at ~$400-$600/kWh, and Nissan should be able to do much better when it comes to pricing.
Sometimes the ones available for sale are those that have been rejected by the manufacturers. This is pretty common when most of the production goes to OEMs (which is why you don't purchase TPC tires as replacements).
omgwtfbyobbq
Active Member
I've only heard of that with suppliers who refuse to sell smaller resellers, like A123, and even those had the tabs cut by the manufacturer and resoldered by the reseller, which made them easy to spot.
I'm sure someone could buy a cell or few from a supplier and test it according to the manufacturer specs to confirm it wasn't a factory second.
I'm sure someone could buy a cell or few from a supplier and test it according to the manufacturer specs to confirm it wasn't a factory second.
LagunaHJames
Member
We have had our Leaf since May of 2011 and will be coming to the end of our 39 month lease in July. We love the car for around town. My wife is the only one who drives it since I got my Model S at the end of May last year (just under 11,000 miles already). The Leaf has around 16,000 on it and we have seen almost a 20% loss of range. When we got it it charged to 100 miles, now we are lucky to get 80. Nissan promised us fast chargers in 2011 but it was only last year that most Nissan dealers in the LA area got them. My wife has friends in LA she would like to visit but can't using the Leaf without making a couple of stops. I drove us to LA (Santa Monica) and back last summer and we had to stop twice at Nissan dealers to use the CHAdeMO charger. We did not receive the survey but I agree with Tony Williams that 150 miles EPA rated range would be worth around $10K. We stopped into our Nissan dealer in Orange County last fall to see the latest model and were willing to get into a new lease early if they could keep our monthly payment the same but we got the usual car dealership run around and could not make it work. I would have thought they would have jumped at the chance to re-up us and lock is in for another 3 years. As it is now it is very unlikely that we will lease another Leaf. My wife is suggesting we look at a hybrid but I really don't want to go back. I have been reading up here and on the Rav4 EV blog about going that route. I am concerned about the issues that some people have had but currently it is the only vehicle other than a Model S that my wife would be able to do her LA trips in. I did get a survey from Nissan about 2 years ago on the Infiniti EV concept but when they mentioned the same range as the Leaf I put in a comment about why would I pay Infiniti prices for Leaf range. We had an Infiniti G37 on an 18 month lease just before we took delivery of our Model S and it was okay but actually didn't seem as smooth a ride as the Leaf.
Does anyone have any suggestions about what we could look at when our Leaf lease is up in July. Is the RAV4 EV our only choice if we want to stay all electric? Thanks!
Does anyone have any suggestions about what we could look at when our Leaf lease is up in July. Is the RAV4 EV our only choice if we want to stay all electric? Thanks!
Electric700
Active Member
You could go with another Model S :smile:! There's also the Ford Focus Electric and Chevrolet Spark EV. While those alternatives can't match the range of the Model S, they do have active battery thermal management to cool/heat it when necessary, like the Model S does. The Nissan LEAF does not have such a system, which is the primary reason so many people are having significant battery degradation issues with those cars.
LagunaHJames
Member
Obviously we would love to have a second Model S but that is not happening. The Focus is rated at 76 and the Spark at 84 so they won't do either. Would love to hear from anyone who has taken delivery of a RAV4 EV in the last year.
roblab
Active Member
There is a RAV4EV group at
<[email protected]>
Some of them have the new RAV4EV.
From what I understand, the RAV has a range of a little over 100 miles per charge, maybe a little better than the other compliance cars.
I am going for an interview with Nissan who is collecting data from Tesla Model S owners. I suspect they will ask about "needs" and "desires" for range for their new upcoming Leaf. It looks like they are thinking of increasing battery size, maybe even doubling it.
I would say, hang on until we know more.
LagunaHJames
Member
Thanks for the info. Too bad Nissan is not reaching out to initial Leaf owners like us. We waited a full year to get ours. Of course none of these can hold a candle to the Model S - best car I have had and worth every penny. But also twice as much as I have ever spent on a car. I could have told them two years ago that 150 Rated miles and a $45K price would own a big piece of the market.
I have a 2012 RAV4 EV that I bought new in April. It is definitely the cheapest way to get 100+ mile EPA range. The best place to find owners is www.myrav4ev.com/forum There are members here that have Model S and RAV4 EV. Example. We are also picking up owners that are turning in ActiveEs that did not go with i3 but wanted to stay electric.
TonyWilliams
Active Member
The Tesla powered Rav4 EV is an entirely different beast than a LEAF, or one of the numerous other sub-100 mile cars.
FORUM - Toyota Rav4 EV Forum - Toyota Rav4 EV Forum for the Rav4 Electric Vehicle
FACEBOOK - https://www.facebook.com/groups/rav4ev/
roblab
Active Member
Had a 2 hour long interview, 8 people there, video recorded, asked numerous questions most along the lines of "why did you buy Tesla?". Number one answer, It's Electric. #2 answer: RANGE.
When asked to expand #2, I asked them to pretend they were a buyer walking into a Nissan showroom. Salesman shows you the top of the line Nissan, leather, power everything, latest engine, good mileage, etc., but then tells you,
"It has a Four Gallon Gas Tank. We figure nobody needs to go over 80 miles in a day, and you can supercharge / refill the car in only 5 minutes".
Would you buy that car? (sound of crickets)
Then why would you expect anyone to buy a low range Electric Vehicle? You're selling to the EV enthusiast. Tesla is selling to the CAR enthusiast.
Nissan makes their own battery packs. They could give you 150 miles for $5000 extra. You might get 200 for that additional. They would make a profit.
We also discussed the Franchise Sales Model they feel they are forced to use, and the Parts and Service Model they are locked into. I almost feel sorry for them. I told them that many Tesla owners feel that Nissan is the only major that is actually trying to build an honest EV, rather than a compliance car. Good for them. I wish them success. But for now, maybe for a long time, they cannot compete with Tesla, except they have the deep pockets to help them fund any new design and get it on the market, maybe sooner than Tesla.
One of the questions was, "What, if any, thing is there you would change about the Model S?" Well, the time display is a bit small. Wish it were half inch numbers! They smiled. I think they were hoping I would grouse about something. Oh, I also said it was bigger than my last car, a Scion xA. Took some getting used to. But so did the enormous torque.... Controlled electric POWER.
Was a fun 2 hours. Hope I could push some helpful buttons.
I was on the 1 year wait list too (reserved April 20, 2010, arrived April 20, 2011, VIN < 1000).
I got the extended range LEAF survey and filled it out...
Wow! That is awesome and im glad you were in there too give some great advice. Its good that you let them know that they were next in line for the EV market. Hopefully that makes them feel good and will have an even better next generation LEAF in a couple of years.
I agree about feeling sorry for them. If you've ever watched Revenge of the Electric Car you see the Nissan CEO really invovled and passionate about EVs and what they were making and then Tesla comes out with Model S and kicks their butt.
TonyWilliams
Active Member
surfingslovak
Member
Where did you read that, Rob? Please beware of misinformation.
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Thank you for mentioning it. A new Facebook group for gen 2 owners has been recently formed. Perhaps some of those owners might be interested in participating:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/rav4ev/
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Car analogies never work... That's a truly TERRIBLE analogy. If the Leaf could be refueled in 5 minutes Nissan would have people queuing out the door and there'd be fast-chargers all over the place. 5-minute refueling is range. Ask small-displacement motorcycle owners.
The problem is that they can't be refueled in 5 minutes, so to get the charge:drive ratio down you have to have more range, and then on top of that capacity ~ range ~ performance ~ charging speed ~ 1/discharge rate, and with the high cost of batteries the incremental cost of performance in a high-range BEV is relatively small, making long-range BEV more appealing to drive.
If that were true, then Nissan has a really expensive inverter and motor.
I put down the $99 reservation fee for a LEAF as well. But when I actually got serious and started asking questions it became apparent than my driving of ~60 miles every day, at 80 on the interstate would be pushing the limits of the LEAF, doable but near the limit. Which meant if I wanted/needed to go to Lowe's, Publix, PetSmart, dinner. I would have to wait for my wife, and her car to do that.
Wasn't something I wanted to deal with, not to mention in sub-freezing temperatures doing 60 miles at 80 would be perhaps beyond the capacity of the car after a year or so.
If there was a 2x LEAF you could bet I would be first in line in Atlanta (largest LEAF market outside of LA and SF) to get one. Assuming it comes cheaper and/or sooner than the Tesla Gen III.
Wasn't something I wanted to deal with, not to mention in sub-freezing temperatures doing 60 miles at 80 would be perhaps beyond the capacity of the car after a year or so.
If there was a 2x LEAF you could bet I would be first in line in Atlanta (largest LEAF market outside of LA and SF) to get one. Assuming it comes cheaper and/or sooner than the Tesla Gen III.
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