Nissan Leaf

[JRP3]

Adding the DC charge port is probably a lot cheaper than building a more powerful on board charger while allowing them to claim fast charge rates for all the cars. Since it looks as if they will be raising the price anyway it's probably a smart marketing move while keeping costs down a little.

 

[GSP]

Nice Improvement for MY12:

1) cold weather package standard.
2) DC fast charge included with SL trim

Imagine how much appeal the MY13 Leaf would have if they offered:
1) 32 kWh battery
2) 32 A, 240 vac, J1772 charger
3) improved styling
4) improved handling
5) active cooling system for the battery

Maybe this will be the Infinity version.

GSP

 

[JRP3]

Imagine how much appeal the MY13 Leaf would have if they offered:
1) 32 kWh battery
2) 32 A, 240 vac, J1772 charger
3) improved styling
4) improved handling
5) active cooling system for the battery

Maybe this will be the Infinity version.

GSP

1&2, yes.
3 I'd be surprised, they need to get more sales out of this body before doing a redesign.
4 I've never heard it was poor for the type of vehicle it is
5 Why add cost and complexity if it's not needed? I've heard of no overheat issues with the LEAF pack, and it's not LiCo chemistry so it doesn't have the heat issues that Tesla has to deal with.

 

[doug]

Adding the DC charge port is probably a lot cheaper than building a more powerful on board charger while allowing them to claim fast charge rates for all the cars. Since it looks as if they will be raising the price anyway it's probably a smart marketing move while keeping costs down a little.

Good point. Still, I wonder what the affect on US charging infrastructure will be.

 

[tomsax]

2) 32 A, 240 vac, J1772 charger

Personally, I'd rather have 19.2 kW (240V/80A) Level 2 charging than DC Quick Charge, especially as range gets up to 150 miles.

DC Quick Charge sounds great until we find out that no one wants to host the darn things, even when the equipment is free. Once the federal money runs out and site owners have to pay for the equipment and the install costs, those stations are going to be a rare as flying cars.

The DC Quick Charge equipment is incredibly expensive, as are the power requirements. It's going to have to be paid charging to justify the capital outlay. It's going to be rarely needed, more so because it will be expensive, further driving down demand, creating an imploding business model. Plus, charging that fast is not good for the batteries as Nissan makes painfully clear in the LEAF owner's manual.

Compare this to 19.2 kW Level 2 charging, yielding 70 miles of range per hour of charging, and still very gentle on the battery pack. The install and equipment costs are already one tenth of a DC Quick Charge station, and soon to drop even further as the hardware becomes a low-margin commodity. The electricity is so cheap that billing infrastructure typically doubles the cost, while attracting customers to spend an hour at a retail location while they use a free charging easily pays the power bill.

I've talked to a number of local government officials and business leaders who want to put in Level 2 charging, but have no interest in DC Quick Charging because they want to attract tourist dollars and the quick charging isn't long enough. Who want to spend $50,000 to sell a cup of coffee when they can spend $5,000 to sell someone lunch or a museum ticket?

People who want to drive beyond their single charge range will think they want DC Quick Charging, but 19.2 kW Level 2 charging is much more likely to be useful.

 

[Eberhard]

Your true. The same matters for Europe too, except, that we would prefer 3-phase charging with 32A = 22kW. Why not 3 smaller charger with 32A and to combine these to a 3-phase with 32A or single phase up to 96A. If one charger would fail, the other are still useable.

 

[Doug_G]

Personally, I'd rather have 19.2 kW (240V/80A) Level 2 charging than DC Quick Charge, especially as range gets up to 150 miles.

I dunno, strategically placed Quick Charge points could be very useful. If they could locate one half-way between Toronto and Ottawa/Montreal (same spot would do for both given the way the highways are connected) then a trip would only be about an hour longer than for an ICE car. Maybe not even that much.

 

[Norbert]

Personally, I'd rather have 19.2 kW (240V/80A) Level 2 charging than DC Quick Charge, especially as range gets up to 150 miles.

Hmm, I can't quite follow, with an increasing range I would expect the need for L2 charging to decrease, leaving only the need for quick charging on medium- and long range trips (except for overnight stays at hotels).

In any case, I'm sure you'll get both. On the Model S, future LEAFs, as well as on the future Roadster (in about three years). 3 kW and 6 kW charging (except partially at home/work/hotel/etc) will be outdated in maybe 5 years (my prediction). (At some point, utilities will discover that upgrading transformers isn't such a big deal.)

I've talked to a number of local government officials and business leaders who want to put in Level 2 charging, but have no interest in DC Quick Charging because they want to attract tourist dollars and the quick charging isn't long enough. Who want to spend $50,000 to sell a cup of coffee when they can spend $5,000 to sell someone lunch or a museum ticket?

I'd expect competition to take care of this tourist-trap thinking.

(BTW, Tesla says an installation will be $25k).

 

[JRP3]

I see DC quick chargers being installed at rest stops, dealers, and "gas" stations, not businesses looking to attract customers. As Tom says they will install less expensive, slower, Level2 EVSE's

 

[TEG]

...I've talked to a number of local government officials and business leaders who want to put in Level 2 charging, but have no interest in DC Quick Charging because they want to attract tourist dollars and the quick charging isn't long enough. Who want to spend $50,000 to sell a cup of coffee when they can spend $5,000 to sell someone lunch or a museum ticket?...

A half hour (24kWh Nissan Leaf) 50kW CHAdeMO quick charge turns into a 4 hour "quick" charge for a Tesla Model S with around 100kWh pack.
So I think it is mistake for people to already start thinking that a J1772 charge is a good "tourist trap" business model. People are going to drive right past them if they have to wait 4 hours. We expect batteries to come down in price, and average pack size to increase over time, right?

At some point, I could see electric RVs and buses. A big heavy vehicle like that could someday have a 200kWh+ size pack, and would certainly want what we now call "high speed" charging.

 

[richkae]

How does a 50kW charge take 4 hours on the 100kWhr Model S?
A full charge should take 2 hours.
If its an 80% charge, it should take about an hour and 36 minutes.

But I agree, thats still to slow - To charge a 100kWhr pack to 80% in half an hour needs a 160kW charger. A 100kW charger gets the job done in 48 minutes.

 

[ChargeIt!]

Since it sounds useful to people ... I spent some time going thru every location on EVCN & EVCM and I updated the XLS chart/image on post #937 above (page 94). Added the nominal Voltage and the Ampacity to the Tesla-to-J1772 converted stations.

 

[tomsax]

Since it sounds useful to people ... I spent some time going thru every location on EVCN & EVCM and I updated the XLS chart/image on post #937 above (page 94). Added the nominal Voltage and the Ampacity to the Tesla-to-J1772 converted stations.

You're totally awesome, Tom. Thanks for all you do for the community!

 

[tomsax]

Personally, I'd rather have 19.2 kW (240V/80A) Level 2 charging than DC Quick Charge, especially as range gets up to 150 miles.

Obviously, DC Quick Charge is better than 19.2 kW Level 2 charging, give or take shortened battery life. It would be wonderful to always have the DCQC option. What I meant by my statement was that if I had the choice between paying extra for 19.2 kW charging (over 3.3 or 6.6 kW) and DCGC, I'd rather pay for 19.2. This is because I think DCQC is a pipe dream that will never be deployed in sufficient quantity to meet demand as EVs become commonplace, whereas 19.2 charging stations can easily become cheap and pervasive.

 

[Norbert]

Obviously, DC Quick Charge is better than 19.2 kW Level 2 charging, give or take shortened battery life. It would be wonderful to always have the DCQC option. What I meant by my statement was that if I had the choice between paying extra for 19.2 kW charging (over 3.3 or 6.6 kW) and DCGC, I'd rather pay for 19.2.

It was the "especially as range gets up to 150 miles" part (which I still can't make sense of).

This is because I think DCQC is a pipe dream that will never be deployed in sufficient quantity to meet demand as EVs become commonplace, whereas 19.2 charging stations can easily become cheap and pervasive.

Based on your conversations with "local government officials and business leaders" ?

I wouldn't be surprised if these were thinking in terms of spending $80k - $100k for a DC charger as a means to attract more customers to an individual business (or museum). I'd agree that this is indeed not going to happen (at least not on a big scale). Of course, they don't have gas pumps at individual businesses or museums either.

It also seems that the idea is still that EVs will remain the kind of niche product which they currently are (or that it will take a very long time before they will be ready for more), even as they acquire a small market share for their "use-cases".

I'm not sure if you are aware that Tesla has plans to install quick charging along both coasts and on a cross country route for a couple million dollar, expecting $25k per installation (these numbers were reported from a participant of the recent annual shareholder meeting, without public confirmation or anything in writing). Tesla points out that as the range of EVs increases, not that many quick chargers will be needed to get coverage. (Not only will this decrease the necessary number per distance, but also it will mean that an increasing amount of charging can be done at home.)

However you should already know that Japan already has a quite good coverage with 50 kW quick chargers. In the UK, Nissan has installed DC chargers at their dealers (for $17k equipment cost, while expecting to be able to lower costs further), I think also achieving a certain level of coverage (haven't seen a map yet).

Is that what a "pipe dream" looks like?

Again, I don't see this as an either-or, and I do expect that you will get both. However, for LEAF owners in the US, the question may be whether CHAdeMO will eventually be replaced by something else, and whether they will be able to retrofit and/or upgrade easily. But then, an upgrade option to 19.2 kW L2 charging, for current owners, seems really unlikely to me.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

In the UK, Nissan has installed DC chargers at their dealers (for $17k equipment cost, while expecting to be able to lower costs further), I think also achieving a certain level of coverage (haven't seen a map yet).

for the record, the DC chargers at Nissan Dealers in the UK are useless... they are only available during business hours and many (all?) are restricted to use by the customers of the dealership... Nissan drivers from other dealerships have been turned away

 

[AndrewBissell]

That is amazingly short sighted. The maxim "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" would be well thought through by these dealers.

 

[JRP3]

for the record, the DC chargers at Nissan Dealers in the UK are useless... they are only available during business hours and many (all?) are restricted to use by the customers of the dealership... Nissan drivers from other dealerships have been turned away

That's terrible. All LEAF owners should be able to use them, even if they have to pay a fee, and they should be available 24 hours. Have them activated by a special key or card that LEAF owners get.

 

[Norbert]

for the record, the DC chargers at Nissan Dealers in the UK are useless... they are only available during business hours and many (all?) are restricted to use by the customers of the dealership... Nissan drivers from other dealerships have been turned away

Yes, however this seems to be Nissan(-UK) specific problem, and I sure hope that they recognize it as a problem and find a solution. As far as I have heard, there also seems to be a construction problem with the chargers, in that children press some emergency-disable button, and the dealers themselves have to turn them back on, sometimes not knowing how to re-enable them.

I understood the concerns discussed above to be much more basic.

 

[Doug_G]

That is amazingly short sighted.

Beyond short sighted - it's self-defeating. If they want their customers to be able to travel in the cars they sell them, they need the other dealers to charge them. Obviously that means they have to charge other dealers' cars too!