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You have to figure that at 65kw even a 4% efficiency loss in the cells generates 2.6kw's of heat. Obviously less of an issue in cooler temps.

The Leaf draws nowhere near 65kW from a QC station. It starts out at about 47kW and quickly ramps down. I'd guess my QC sessions have an average charging speed of no more than 30kW, maybe as low as 25kW.

I've done three QCs in a day before, got my temps up from 5 bars to 6.
 
I just went with the max spec fro Chademo. Even at 30kw 4% is 1200 watts, which is a small space heater.

The max spec for CHAdeMO is 100kW, or 200A 500V. The max spec for the currently used Yazaki connector is 125A, so 62.5kW. But the chargers usually can't put out more than ~50kW max. No CHAdeMO capable EV has a battery voltage over 400V anyway, which would be needed to hit that ceiling (125A@400V is 50kW).
 
What you guys think about the battery air cooled system in the Leaf… will it really hurt the battery life sooner than with a liquid cooled system. Nissan says the battery is expected to maintain approximately 80% of its initial capacity after 5 years... 20% lost in 5 year seems a lot…
 
You did read the reports of capacity loss up in the thread? If these are due to lack of thermal management, that means more bad news are in the pipe for Nissan as more and more packs degrade. As I understand it, the LEAF has no active cooling (=a compressor), only passive shedding of heat via the battery pack casing.

I don't know how susceptible the Nissan LEAF's battery chemistry is to raised temperatures. I am happy to go with Tesla's temperature controlled battery pack design, even though I live in a moderate climate. Should Nissan look into adding a similar mechanism to the LEAF, I am afraid they will to have significant weight, calling for a larger battery pack.
 
Should Nissan look into adding a similar mechanism to the LEAF, I am afraid they will to have significant weight, calling for a larger battery pack.
Doesn't have to add too much weight. Several pounds of coolant. Perhaps tie into the existing or a beefed up HVAC system assuming that doesn't step on someone else's patents. They're all ready heating the packs for people in cold climates. Anyhow I'm sure they'll do some cost benefit analysis and figure out if something needs to be changed for future model years.
 
You did read the reports of capacity loss up in the thread? If these are due to lack of thermal management, that means more bad news are in the pipe for Nissan as more and more packs degrade. As I understand it, the LEAF has no active cooling (=a compressor), only passive shedding of heat via the battery pack casing.

I don't know how susceptible the Nissan LEAF's battery chemistry is to raised temperatures. I am happy to go with Tesla's temperature controlled battery pack design, even though I live in a moderate climate. Should Nissan look into adding a similar mechanism to the LEAF, I am afraid they will to have significant weight, calling for a larger battery pack.

I beleive the additional problems will begin to show up In the air cooled batteries as individual cells degrade and cause heat damage to adjacent cells and sheets. Tesla's ability to isolate sections of the battery that are not performing properly likely save damage to the battery as a whole. Heat is generated when charging and discharging, and it has to have a place to go, or the excess heat will cause damage. Given the cureent state of cell technology I would not own an electric car without some kind of active thermal management that is able to dissipate the excess heat properly.
 
Nissan doesn't have sheets like the Tesla, so that's not an issue, they have cells in modules. Nor does the Nissan chemistry have the same thermal issues as the Tesla chemistry so they really don't need aggressive management. The problem Nissan is having is in extremely hot climates which is probably leading to some electrolyte degradation, lithium plating, and therefor capacity loss. I don't think they need to go to liquid cooling but should at least engineer some forced air flow through the pack. In more moderate climates, those that rarely see temps above 90F or so, which is most places, the current packs should not have a problem. The new cell chemistry from A123 is even more stable at greater temperature extremes, Nissan may be better off shifting to that chemistry, (if A123 can survive that long), or Nissan may have something else up their sleeve.
 
It's true that Nissan doesn't have to be as aggressive with their thermal management. In my mind, though, liquid cooling tied into the HVAC isn't overly complicated and is easier to package than forced air flow through the pack if in fact it is a problem. At any rate, they have options. If they start having to replace a bunch of batteries under warranty, I'm sure they'll make some changes.
 
I heard some tale of early LEAF prototypes with more aggressive pack cooling but that they changed to provide more interior room instead of so much cooling.

Tesla basically had to do the active cooling tied to the AC because the laptop cells can be dangerous if they get too hot.
With the LEAF pack it seems more about capacity degradation (not possible fires), but still a problem.

Nissan has some updates coming next year for 2013. I wonder if they will do anything to improve pack longevity for cars in very hot climates?
 
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It's pretty clear that Nissan will need to do something to handle hot climates better. LEAFs in hot climates like Phoenix are losing capacity very quickly. On the other hand, LEAFs in cool climates like Seattle appear to be doing very well even when driven a LOT (there's a guy near Seattle who put nearly 40k miles in a year, 130 miles/day, 2 full charges/day, with very little capacity loss).

There's two situations where some sort of active cooling can really benefit the LEAF:

1. Quick charges when the battery is warm - quick charging seems to generate a good amount of heat in the battery pack. In moderate temps with occasional use, it's not an issue. But if you QC more than once a day or the pack is already warm (from high ambient temps), the battery pack temp can get pretty high. It takes quite a few to get the battery up to the red zone on the battery temp gauge, but the hotter the battery is, the faster it's degrading.
2. High ambient temps - there's a huge difference in rate of capacity loss comparing Phoenix to Seattle, for example. In Phoenix and similar climates, it seems to be a given that you will lose 15% capacity in about a year - seems to vary between 10-20%. Seattle LEAFs are seeing less than 5% capacity loss after a year, even with lots of miles. Some sort of TMS to help keep battery temps under 90F if not lower at least would go a long ways maintaining capacity in hot climates. Even if the TMS only ran when plugged in at night it would be a huge benefit. For half the year in Phoenix the typical LEAF won't see it's pack go under 90F - especially if parked in a garage which doesn't cool much during the night. You could probably reduce rate of capacity loss by a large amount especially considering that the battery pack is a large thermal mass and takes time to heat up under normal conditions.

Of course - there's another alternative to TMS. Since battery degradation seems to flatten out around 30% capacity loss (at least that's what Nissan says, Tesla has said similar things about their battery), it might be easier to simply bump up new capacity by 30% and be absolutely up front with the type of capacity loss one will see and how it varies with climate using various cities as examples. If you properly manage customer's expectations, then capacity loss isn't an issue. The biggest issue with capacity loss in hot climates today is that Nissan has only given a blanket 20% after 5 years and 30% after 10 years with no mention that if you life in Arizona you're actually going to see 20% lost after 1-2 years and 30% after 2-4 years.

70 mile range is already borderline for many people - even 20% cuts that down to 56 miles - and losing those 14 miles after 1 year instead of gradually over 5 years represents a large loss in value to the customer.

Surely, Nissan knew this would happen ahead of time - many were surprised to see Phoenix as a launch market and took it as a vote of confidence in battery durability in hot climates and have been left sorely disappointed. If Nissan doesn't do something soon to get this under control, it's quickly going to snowball into a PR nightmare. Anecdotal stories on mynissanleaf.com has shown that a good number of customers are no longer looking at the LEAF until this capacity degradation issue is resolved. A handful have sold/traded in their LEAF after a year because of it - some have traded it in for a new lease on a LEAF - some have gone back to a hybrid.

If they start having to replace a bunch of batteries under warranty, I'm sure they'll make some changes.
While loss of capacity has been rapid in hot climates, there have been very few reports of actual battery pack failures. I certainly can't recall any - the cells that Nissan is using appear to be very consistent in performance.

There is apparently a small fan in the pack to at least circulate air around to distribute heat evenly and perhaps aid some passive heat radiation away from the pack.
I've neard this rumor multiple times, but the service manual doesn't appear to mention it...
 
While loss of capacity has been rapid in hot climates, there have been very few reports of actual battery pack failures. I certainly can't recall any - the cells that Nissan is using appear to be very consistent in performance.
Sorry, I guess I was assuming that the battery was supposed to retain some minimum capacity under the warranty. A quick search seems to indicate that that is not the case.
 
I've neard this (fan in the pack) rumor multiple times, but the service manual doesn't appear to mention it...

I guess this makes it slightly more than a rumor:
2011 Chevrolet Volt vs 2011 Nissan Leaf SL vs 2011 Toyota Prius III Comparison - Motor Trend

...And according to Darryl Siry's observation in Wired, there's a crucial difference between the Leaf and Volt batteries that bears careful watching. Nissan is betting on a fan to equalize its internal temperatures; heat buildup is dissipated by simple air cooling...

In Race to Market, Nissans Electric Car Takes Shortcuts | Autopia | Wired.com
...The key engineering trade-off Nissan has made is opting not to include active thermal management, where the temperature of the pack is controlled by an HVAC system similar to what cools the passenger cabin on a hot day. Instead, Nissan has opted to use only an internal fan that circulates the air within the sealed pack to evenly distribute the heat, which escapes by passive radiation through the pack’s external case...
Was Siry wrong? Did specs change? Maybe there is indeed a fan in there...