No Supercharging for 40Kwh :(

[TEG]

Actually Nissan never stated quick charging reduces the life of the battery - just when done on average more than once a day...

A more recent variation I heard of this (from Nissan directly) is that they "cannot guarantee more than one quick charge per day". In other words, not saying that it is bad for the pack, but rather the car may not allow it. I think the car is smart enough to refuse a quick charge if the pack is too hot to safely accept that much current. If you are trying to do a long drive at highway speeds, with quick stops for QC along the way, the pack heat build-up may prevent it from recharging at full rate.
It is probably more about setting expectations. Planning a multi-hundred mile day trip in the LEAF with repeated quick charge sessions along the way may not work out. (And not just from the point of view that one of the QC stations may not be available.)

 

[jcstp]

A more recent variation I heard of this (from Nissan directly) is that they "cannot guarantee more than one quick charge per day". In other words, not saying that it is bad for the pack, but rather the car may not allow it. I think the car is smart enough to refuse a quick charge if the pack is too hot to safely accept that much current. If you are trying to do a long drive at highway speeds, with quick stops for QC along the way, the pack heat build-up may prevent it from recharging at full rate.
It is probably more about setting expectations. Planning a multi-hundred mile day trip in the LEAF with repeated quick charge sessions along the way may not work out. (And not just from the point of view that one of the QC stations may not be available.)

This is best answered by a Leaf-owner!
But of what I am aware, the LEAF does not limit it's owner of QC several times a day!

 

[qwk]

Seriously Tesla if you've managed to screw up your own PR so badly that someone like Dpeilow is being turned off by your car then you are not doing it right. That's probably your most high-profile fan in the UK and marks a serious loss of free publicity. I'm so glad I don't work PR for Tesla, in that case I would be looking at job ads.

Cobos

Exactly my thoughts. I'm the same way. If you look at my past posts, I was extatic about Tesla and their Ev plan. Now I'm just like meh..

 

[TEG]

But of what I am aware, the LEAF does not limit it's owner of QC several times a day!

Previously I had thought that doing too much QC per day would start to harm the pack excessively, but I was told that the car is "smarter than that" and will protect the pack on its' own. You may well be able to do multiple QCs per day, but the car could decide it has "had enough" (due to heat primarily) and start limiting repeated QC sessions until it has had a time to rest (and cool down.) I suppose the Nissan person (who is in a position to know) was wrong about this, but I am just relating what I was told by someone who should know. I think it may still charge off the CHAdeMO, but just charge at a slower rate. This may primarily be a concern only in places with hot climates.

 

[ljbad4life]

Previously I had thought that doing too much QC per day would start to harm the pack excessively, but I was told that the car is "smarter than that" and will protect the pack on its' own. You may well be able to do multiple QCs per day, but the car could decide it has "had enough" (due to heat primarily) and start limiting repeated QC sessions until it has had a time to rest (and cool down.) I suppose the Nissan person (who is in a position to know) was wrong about this, but I am just relating what I was told by someone who should know. I think it may still charge off the CHAdeMO, but just charge at a slower rate. This may primarily be a concern only in places with hot climates.

Well it's in the manual to limit the use of Quick Charging and I'm sure Nissan can pull the warranty if they deem you used quick charging excessively (which is a number Nissan refuses to quantify).

 

[dpeilow]

Yep, we know a few LEAF owners in the UK who have done multi-QC day trips with no problems.

 

[ljbad4life]

Yep, we know a few LEAF owners in the UK who have done multi-QC day trips with no problems.

The issue isn't what happens today, it's what will happen "tomorrow". Nissan isn't physically keeping you from using QC, but keep quick charging frequently and Nissan will pull the warranty. So when a charge only nets you a 50% range compared to what it used to be in two years and these owners will turn to Nissan and say "oh noes my batturies!!11!!" Nissan will point to the verbiage in the manual that clearly states to avoid quick charging and those owners are going to be very angry and throw a fit, but it's no ones fault but their own.

 

[dpeilow]

It was said somewhere that the 1 a day rule is an average. So if you go on a trip and do say 7, then nothing else for a week then that is one a day.

 

[ljbad4life]

It was said somewhere that the 1 a day rule is an average. So if you go on a trip and do say 7, then nothing else for a week then that is one a day.

What makes it shakey is that Nissan wont quantify how many quick charges, and the verbiage in the manual is very vague (in Nissan's favor). So that Nissan could void your warranty if you quick charge and that's never pretty. Just be careful and reserved in quick charging.

Tesla wants to avoid that warranty whole issue. keep in mind that Tesla tests cars at 55mph to get 160 while Nissan tests their Leaf at 20mph for 100 mile range. Which is more likely to give you a more realistic range so that you don't have to Quick charge frequently. 10kw charging is fast, not as fast as quick charging, but fast. 32 miles of range added per hour. The Leafs hwy range is about half of what the 160 Model S is. So in the end a 300 mile trip would take the same time for a quick charging Leaf as a 10kw charging Model S

 

[dpeilow]

Tesla wants to avoid that warranty whole issue. keep in mind that Tesla tests cars at 55mph to get 160 while Nissan tests their Leaf at 20mph for 100 mile range. Which is more likely to give you a more realistic range so that you don't have to Quick charge frequently. 10kw charging is fast, not as fast as quick charging, but fast. 32 miles of range added per hour. The Leafs hwy range is about half of what the 160 Model S is. So in the end a 300 mile trip would take the same time for a quick charging Leaf as a 10kw charging Model S

LEAF range is 100 miles at 55mph. A couple of owners I know have managed it.

As for 10kW charging being fast - that's if your definition of fast is sitting around for hours. Sorry but 10kW charging is for night time.

 

[Norbert]

We're just speculating on possible reasons (to the benefit of Tesla for the most part) why it's not offered, beyond just leaving it out to force people to buy the 60kWh or higher version.

Meanwhile we have some more info from a post by smorgasbord:

So I stopped by Tesla Santana Row on my way home from work. As you might imagine, there's a lot of buzz about the new pricing and people's reactions. Here is some information I got that I believe is accurate:

1) The main reason the 40kWh version does not support Quick Charging is battery life. They're guaranteeing the battery for 8 years and at that size they're worried about the effect of frequent QCing on battery life.

2) [....]

3) The battery warranties do not yet have specifics, like what range decreases over time are acceptable. They do expect there will be some restrictions on how often you can Quick Charge. There are also things like not driving through water that's more than 5" deep, racing the car on a track, etc. that will adversely affect warranty coverage. Again, they do not yet know the specifics.

[.....]

----
The 40 kWh has a shorter battery life in general since common use puts a higher stress on a smaller pack. Combine this with the need for more frequent supercharging on long trips, and you have higher stress even at a 40 kW charging rate.

Also combine that with the need for more chargers and a blurred message about Supercharging.

The chemistry of Panansonic's batteries may be more optimized towards range/price than power/price, unlike Nissan's, since the Leaf needs to get along with 24 kWh for daily use. Hence perhaps the hints that Nissan isn't keen on increasing the range of the Leaf.

It may be unfortunate, but perhaps better in the long run for all of us, if we allow Supercharging to establish itself in the public opinion as a very-well-working (though *currently* expensive) feature, rather than compromise that crucial message so that those who can't afford $10k more have a compromise that gives them a few more medium length trips but not the real solution in any case.

It may help Bluestar come sooner, which will be much better for those of us not wanting to spend that much money.

 

[onlinespending]

So in the end a 300 mile trip would take the same time for a quick charging Leaf as a 10kw charging Model S

Honestly who cares that a quick charging Leaf can travel the same distance in roughly the same time when compared to a 10kW charging Model S? All I know is, a quick-charging Model S with 40kWh battery will certainly travel the same distance more quickly than a 10kW charging Model S with 40 kWh battery. I don't get much consolation knowing that my Model S can cover ground as quickly as a Nissan Leaf. I'm not buying a Nissan Leaf

Again, Tesla who preaches how innovative it is, needs to be creative and come up with solution to provide the 40 kWh batteries with quick-charging. Perhaps allow one one quick charge at full-rate per day, and any subsequent ones will be provided at a progressively reduced rate. The irony is this. Most people getting the 40 kWh version are doing so because its within their usual driving range and likely will not be taking many roadtrips with it to begin with, so it's less likely they would quick charge their car anyways. But people with the large pack cars may have opted for them because they do in fact plan on taking more road trips necessitating quick charging, so its the large capacity batteries that will be taking more of the strain (if that is indeed the case) with more quick charging over the life of the battery.

 

[dpeilow]

Buying an EV is one thing, being able to drive it beyond city limits another...

 

[Norbert]

Buying an EV is one thing, being able to drive it beyond city limits another...

Some people here will buy a 300 mile Model S so that later-on you can afford a 300 mile Bluestar.

 

[dpeilow]

Some people here will buy a 300 mile Model S so that later-on you can afford a 300 mile Bluestar.

I expect to own a 300 mile whitestar before there's an affordable 300 mile bluestar.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Meanwhile we have some more info from a post by smorgasbord:

The warranty thing sounds like the most likely explanation. But I think something can still be worked out despite that (like adding limits to quick charging in the warranty terms, assuming it is legal to do so) since it seems a lot of potential 160 customers want the supercharger ability, judging from threads here.

 

[surfingslovak]

I think it may still charge off the CHAdeMO, but just charge at a slower rate. This may primarily be a concern only in places with hot climates.

Yes, this sounds reasonable and I've heard that somewhere too. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of data from the field to validate this, but I would be surprised if Nissan implemented this differently.

 

[Norbert]

I expect to own a 300 mile whitestar before there's an affordable 300 mile bluestar.

Great! I think the most important objective is to reduce the price of 300 mile EVs. I expect that to be the direction Tesla is taking, with the means available.

 

[Norbert]

The warranty thing sounds like the most likely explanation. But I think something can still be worked out despite that (like adding limits to quick charging in the warranty terms, assuming it is legal to do so) since it seems a lot of potential 160 customers want the supercharger ability, judging from threads here.

Perhaps, but reducing the warranty is probably the kind of thing it would require. I'm not sure how good that would look when printed in mainstream media, though. (Especially considering these are luxury sedans).

 

[ljbad4life]

Honestly who cares that a quick charging Leaf can travel the same distance in roughly the same time when compared to a 10kW charging Model S? All I know is, a quick-charging Model S with 40kWh battery will certainly travel the same distance more quickly than a 10kW charging Model S with 40 kWh battery. I don't get much consolation knowing that my Model S can cover ground as quickly as a Nissan Leaf. I'm not buying a Nissan Leaf

Again, Tesla who preaches how innovative it is, needs to be creative and come up with solution to provide the 40 kWh batteries with quick-charging. Perhaps allow one one quick charge at full-rate per day, and any subsequent ones will be provided at a progressively reduced rate. The irony is this. Most people getting the 40 kWh version are doing so because its within their usual driving range and likely will not be taking many roadtrips with it to begin with, so it's less likely they would quick charge their car anyways. But people with the large pack cars may have opted for them because they do in fact plan on taking more road trips necessitating quick charging, so its the large capacity batteries that will be taking more of the strain (if that is indeed the case) with more quick charging over the life of the battery.

Well everyone keeps comparing the Model S to a Leaf. One thing Tesla could is shorten the warranty to 5 year and allow super charging. If Tesla allowed supercharging that would encourage people to use super charging. I contest that people car picking the 160 mile car because it's suits their needs, if it did then they wouldn't be complaining about supercharging. Many people are buy the 40kwh because that's what they can afford. Or Tesla could compromise and allow the 20kw twin charger (I'm not too sure if you can or can't get it for the 160). so 62 miles per hour charged is fairly competitive with the leaf.