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Nuclear power

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Does anyone know if the Ontario nuclear plants that are being rehabilitated are light water designs?

I think all the reactors in Canada are heavy water reactors but the physics are still very much the same. Any reactor that uses water as a moderator should have a negative temperature coefficient.

But... I think that higher enrichment levels mean a more dynamic reactor. Since CANDU reactors use natural (~0.7%) or possibly depleted uranium vs the LEU (~5%) that US reactors use their response time to changes in power output is probably lower.
 
Ontario is not changing the design of the reactors. It's a "plumbing job" if you will, to rebuild the infrastructure of the reactor and steam systems.
Billions of dollars will be spent on this. Ug.

The Ontario Bruce Nuclear plant has a set of reactors with "steam bypass", effectively, they can throttle electricity production at the cost of using the energy to boil water into the atmosphere. Truly mind boggling that this has become standard daily operating procedure here in Ontario.

This is what happens when a government meddles in electricity policy and transitions from a non-profit based system to a for-profit system with no checks/balances.

Ontario used to have 100% ownership and control of it's electricity production, now we pay for profit companies to standby-idle, like the 7GW of gas power we have available, when the average production is 1.5GW. Ug.

Sigh
 
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From the NETFLIX series OCCUPIED S1:E1 @ 06:39. The Norwegians stop oil product in favor of Thorium based power. @ 08:45
 
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Interesting article from Vox on nuclear...

I agree with the underlying premise... had nuclear been managed better 40 years ago the world would be much different today... solar and wind would likely have had no room to grow and nuclear would remain the dominate source of energy for decades.

A rough analogy to free energy markets would be a forest... if nuclear had grown fast enough with proper management and cost reductions the shadow it cast would not have allowed solar and wind to become a threat to it's dominance. Solar and Wind are now the ones casting that shadow.. it's very unlikely nuclear find an advantage sufficient to allow for it to survive much less grow.
 
Interesting article from Vox on nuclear...

I agree with the underlying premise... had nuclear been managed better 40 years ago the world would be much different today... solar and wind would likely have had no room to grow and nuclear would remain the dominate source of energy for decades.

A rough analogy to free energy markets would be a forest... if nuclear had grown fast enough with proper management and cost reductions the shadow it cast would not have allowed solar and wind to become a threat to it's dominance. Solar and Wind are now the ones casting that shadow.. it's very unlikely nuclear find an advantage sufficient to allow for it to survive much less grow.
Very interesting article. Other countries have shown that nuclear doesn't have to be expensive. The US just screwed up the process (it seems our "free, fragmented market should take a lot of blame). It seems there is a lot to be said for regulators working closely with a monopoly electric utility.

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From the NETFLIX series OCCUPIED S1:E1 @ 06:39. The Norwegians stop oil product in favor of Thorium based power. @ 08:45
We watched this series... very well made and a fascinating story.
 
Some of the article's cost contrasts are unfair, as natural gas used to cost closer to $2,000/kw and the wind quote:

"By the early 1970s, nuclear construction costs had risen to $1,800 to $2,500/kW in today's dollars — about the cost of modern wind farms."
..is inaccurate by not including the substantially lower, <50%, capacity factor for wind. Control for what is perhaps an average 35% CF, and wind and nuclear are on top of one another ($5,000-$7,000/kw).

How much natural gas overnight costs went down is very relevant to the discussion, as we've gotten good at taking waste heat to run the combined cycle that got costs below $1,000/kw. Natural gas has outrun everything, and would probably require a $20-30 per ton CO2 price, with no allowances given away, before the market began to rotate away from it.

I suppose lately I've come more to the immediacy argument, of solar development and lead times. Even if it lasts little more than half as long as nuclear, there's too much time before nuclear goes online. Too much time for increased costs, by firms like Bechtel, CB&I, Stone & Webster. Too much time for interest rates to rise (An unrecognized, potentially high cost). In the end, solar still needs quantities of land, storage, and additional off-site transmission, which to me put all of the non-carbon resources into a similar (favorable) group.
 
I heard a CEO in the nuclear industry say 'I don't care if it's hard' in response to a complaint about an overly convoluted work order process. That's the kind of cancer that's pervasive in the nuclear industry... he absolutely SHOULD care that something is overly 'hard'.... hard means expensive. Expensive means nuclear loses its competitive advantage. The leadership simply doesn't care about lowering costs to compete. They still view solar and wind as a hippie joke. The laughter is slowly dieing... along with their industry.
 
Other countries have shown that nuclear doesn't have to be expensive. The US just screwed up

References please.

Ontario spent billions on "base load" nuclear power, and will spend more billions on refurbishment of our reactors over the next 15 years.
Not a single reactor was ever built on budget, or refurbished on budget.

Ontario added a special charge on the electricity bill called "debt reduction", it lasted for many many long years, guess what that was for!?
 
The Nuclear Industry Prices Itself Out Of Market For New Power Plants

In the modern era, nuclear power plants have almost always become more and more expensive over time. They have a “negative learning curve” — along with massive delays and cost overruns in market economies. This is confirmed both by recent studies and by the ongoing cost escalations of nuclear plants around the world, as I’ll detail in this post.


The cost escalation curse of nuclear power

“Ever since the completion of the first wave of nuclear reactors in 1970, and continuing with the ongoing construction of new reactors in Europe, nuclear power seems to be doomed with the curse of cost escalation,” read one 2015 journal article, “Revisiting the Cost Escalation Curse of Nuclear Power.”

In the United States, the cost of Georgia Power’s newest twin Vogtle reactors may top initial estimates of $14 billion and reach $21 billion, according to recent Georgia Public Service Commission testimony. Of course, the first two Vogtle Units begun in 1971 took 18 years to build (a decade over schedule) at a final price of $9 billion — ten times the original price tag. BloombergBusiness wrote last fall, “Even as sympathetic an observer as John Rowe [former chair of the U.S.’s largest nuclear utility] warns that the new units at Vogtle will be uneconomical when — or if — they’re completed.”

Even the French can’t build an affordable, on-schedule next generation nuclear plant in their own nuclear-friendly country. Their newest Normandy plant, which originally was projected to cost €3bn ($3.3 billion) and start producing power in 2012 “will not start until 2018 at a cost of €10.5bn [$11.3 billion],” the Financial Times reported last year.

The high and rising price of new nuclear power plants does not mean new nukes will play no role in the fight to avoid catastrophic warming, as I discussed in January. It does means that, barring a huge unprecedented and ahistorical price drop in next-generation nuclear plants, the role nuclear power plays will be a limited one — a very limited one in market economies especially if the industry can’t reverse decades of cost escalation. Certainly an R&D breakthrough is worth pursuing, but adding even more policies to specifically accelerate deployment of new nukes makes little sense at this point.

<snip>

Ironically, even a brand new study in Energy Policy by nuclear advocates, “Historical construction costs of global nuclear power reactors,” purporting to show that nuclear power does not always have a negative learning curve, actually finds the reverse. Once you get past the very early-stage development (mid-1950s to mid-1960s) with its super-high costs, nuclear power plants clearly have a negative learning curve in every country the authors examine. The only small exception is South Korea, which has a tiny fraction of the world’s nukes and for which the cost data is questionable.

Leading energy analyst Dr. Jon Koomey of Stanford University summed up the new study this way:

“With the exception of South Korea, whose nuclear cost data are not independently audited and are therefore of unknown quality, all available cost data paint a consistent picture: the investment risk of nuclear power is significant, costs almost always increased over time in the modern era, and cost overruns and lengthened construction times need to be considered carefully by investors and policy makers alike.”

Moreover, Koomey explains, “adding interest during construction would only strengthen these conclusions.”

What? Yes the authors of this paper — in an effort to downplay the staggering cost of nuclear power plants — make use of the extremely dubious “overnight cost” of nuclear plants, rather than their real costs. The overnight cost is literally the theoretical cost of a power plant if you could build it overnight, if you could built it without interest charges or cost overruns from delays.

For wind and solar projects, which have construction periods typically measured in months, the difference between an “overnight” cost and the actual cost to complete the project is usually not that significant. But nukes typically take many years to complete — and a decade is not uncommon. Cost escalations that occur during this long construction period, plus the financing costs during construction, may easily double the total cost of a project compared to its “overnight” cost. Trying to oversell nukes by focusing on the imaginary overnight costs is tantamount to selling someone a house with “teaser” initial mortgage payments and failing to make clear that the payments will later balloon to a much higher level.

<snip>
Full article at:
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/03/08/3757281/nuclear-industry-prices/
 

I have a problem with that piece. First, I don't like a title that includes the word "proof" when none is contained within the opinion text below. Second, what's a bigger security risk - global warming and the resource contention effect that comes along with it, or protectable generators that create energy and nuclear waste?

The biggest thing nuclear has going against it is an irrational fear of any amount of radiation. Too many Spider-Man comics, maybe.
 
I have a problem with that piece. First, I don't like a title that includes the word "proof" when none is contained within the opinion text below. Second, what's a bigger security risk - global warming and the resource contention effect that comes along with it, or protectable generators that create energy and nuclear waste?

The biggest thing nuclear has going against it is an irrational fear of any amount of radiation. Too many Spider-Man comics, maybe.

Not sure it's irrational. Florida is the "Sunshine State" but has a deplorable record when it comes to solar...
 
I have a problem with that piece. First, I don't like a title that includes the word "proof" when none is contained within the opinion text below. Second, what's a bigger security risk - global warming and the resource contention effect that comes along with it, or protectable generators that create energy and nuclear waste?

The biggest thing nuclear has going against it is an irrational fear of any amount of radiation. Too many Spider-Man comics, maybe.
No disagreement from me. My take-away was that nuclear plants are getting old (that much is clear) and may not be as safe today as they were when 10 years younger. The potential to have terror-inspired breeches are plausible, although at what level I have no direct knowledge. When faced with the choice of nuclear leakage or climate change, I'll gamble on nuclear over the sure-loser of fossil fuels. But I'd prefer to see more renewables come on line to allow the old reactors to be mothballed sooner rather than later (or proactively instead of reactively - Fukushima for example).
 
I have a problem with that piece. First, I don't like a title that includes the word "proof" when none is contained within the opinion text below. Second, what's a bigger security risk - global warming and the resource contention effect that comes along with it, or protectable generators that create energy and nuclear waste?

The biggest thing nuclear has going against it is an irrational fear of any amount of radiation. Too many Spider-Man comics, maybe.

Yes, I think news stories like that are dumbing down America for no reason. IIRC, most heavy water reactors leak tritium. It's a naturally occurring isotope, and is created by nature in the atmosphere.

Is 200 times the natural level of tritium past the acceptable limit in the US? We have about the lowest limit for it.

I get suspicious when an article like that doesn't state whether the limits were exceeded. Surely the researchers must know.
 
No problem

Since we are piling on nuclear energy, apparently Turkey Point is leaking
Miamis oceanfront nuclear power plant is leaking | Fusion

See Nuclear Waste: Handle With Care... Or What? - New Matilda

There is no problem. Please read this book: "Radiation and Reason, The impact of Science on a culture of fear" by Wade Allison. The Wade Allison in England, not the other Wade Allison at Harvard.http://www.radiationandreason.com/
Professor Allison says we can take up to 10 rems per month, a little more than 1000 times the present "legal" limit. The old limit was 5 rems/lifetime. A single dose of 800 rems could kill you, but if you have time to recover between doses of 10 rems, no problem. It is like donating blood: You see "4 gallon donor" stickers on cars. You know they didn't give 4 gallons all at once. There is a threshold just over 10 rems/month. You are getting .35 rems/year NATURAL background radiation right where you are right now if you are where I am.


Natural Background Radiation is radiation that was always there, 1000 years ago, a million years ago, etc. Natural Background Radiation comes from the rocks in the ground and from exploding stars thousands of light years away. All rocks contain uranium. Radon gas is a decay product of uranium.
 
See Nuclear Waste: Handle With Care... Or What? - New Matilda

There is no problem. Please read this book: "Radiation and Reason, The impact of Science on a culture of fear" by Wade Allison. The Wade Allison in England, not the other Wade Allison at Harvard.http://www.radiationandreason.com/
Professor Allison says we can take up to 10 rems per month, a little more than 1000 times the present "legal" limit. The old limit was 5 rems/lifetime. A single dose of 800 rems could kill you, but if you have time to recover between doses of 10 rems, no problem. It is like donating blood: You see "4 gallon donor" stickers on cars. You know they didn't give 4 gallons all at once. There is a threshold just over 10 rems/month. You are getting .35 rems/year NATURAL background radiation right where you are right now if you are where I am.


Natural Background Radiation is radiation that was always there, 1000 years ago, a million years ago, etc. Natural Background Radiation comes from the rocks in the ground and from exploding stars thousands of light years away. All rocks contain uranium. Radon gas is a decay product of uranium.

Risk V Reward; I agree the risk is small but what's the reward? Solar PPAs are now going for $0.05/kWh and falling... new nuclear is $0.07/kWh and rising; There's really no reason to build more nuclear.
 
Risk V Reward; I agree the risk is small but what's the reward? Solar PPAs are now going for $0.05/kWh and falling... new nuclear is $0.07/kWh and rising; There's really no reason to build more nuclear.

I would argue that it might be valuable in some areas to have a large scale energy source which is decoupled from environmental factors like wind and sun.
 
Part of the reason for high nuclear costs in the US is that we stopped the nuclear industry in the 1970's. Can you imagine how much technological improvements could have occurred in 40 years if the full development continued?
 
Coal has had its day. Nuclear is next to go.

I agree with nwdiver - the costs don't make sense. As storage technology advances (many kinds!), the environmental factors ohmman refers to will be less of an issue.

Nuclear is about being exceedingly careful to prevent disaster. Have we managed it? To some extent, but clearly there have been accidents the industry would prefer to forget. The Japanese cleanup is going to go on for much longer than expected, we hear now.

If we can harness the *free* fusion reactor in the sky, with negligible environmental impacts on our planet (mining the materials being the biggest issue) and little O&M costs through time, why would we chase the expensive, difficult and dangerous? We might crack the fusion nut ourselves, but we can't rely on that happening in a timely fashion.