Odds of higher future 240V charge rates on the M3?

[jruben4]

I understand that the current max the M3 will charge with the wall connector is 48A. It appears the wall charger can do 80A if on the correct circuit.

What are the odds the M3 LR will ever be able to accept more than 48A? Just wondering if it's worth a bit more install $$ to put the wall charger on a bigger circuit than 60A, to future proof it?

 

[Zoomit]

current build cars =0% chance.

60A is much more than needed for far, far majority. I charge 2 BEVs on a single 30A circuit. What's more valuable would to have 2 60A circuits, not a single 100A, for a second car in the garage.

 

[ivan801]

You are limited by hardware in the car. So probably not..

 

[jjrandorin]

current build cars =0% chance.

60A is much more than needed for far, far majority. I charge 2 BEVs on a single 30A circuit. What's more valuable would to have 2 60A circuits, not a single 100A, for a second car in the garage.

If one was convinced they would have teslas, since the wall connectors can share a circuit, I believe another choice would be to put 2 wall connectors on that 100 amp circuit. That only works if one is going to only get teslas as ev's though.

@OP, if you think you might buy a model S or X or another car with higher charge rate at any point in the future, and are incurring expense to either DIY or have someone pull the cable for you, the only downside to pulling thicker cable is cost (and whether the load calculations on your home allow the higher amp circuit.

The thicker wire is a lot more expensive and harder to work with, and costs more for absolutely no benefit for the model 3 currently being made. If the pull is long, or the cost of the install is high due to difficulty of install, and this is your "forever home" so to speak, might be worth it. Otherwise likely not worth it.

 

[eprosenx]

I understand that the current max the M3 will charge with the wall connector is 48A. It appears the wall charger can do 80A if on the correct circuit.

What are the odds the M3 LR will ever be able to accept more than 48A? Just wondering if it's worth a bit more install $$ to put the wall charger on a bigger circuit than 60A, to future proof it?

Currently built cars have a hard limit at 48 amps (or SR/MR are limited at 32). So without a hardware swap, nothing would change there.

Even for new cars, I *HIGHLY* doubt the M3 will get anything larger than 48a since it is already so fast compared to the range of the car. It is pretty overkill. 44 miles of range per hour plugged in.

Note that the S and the X currently default to a 48a charger, and you used to be able to order it with an upgraded 72a charger but I don't think they offer that right now. So the max Tesla sells currently is a 48a charger across the entire product range. I could see them add the 72a chargers back to the S/X later though since they are a bit slow @48a since they have larger batteries and the cars are less efficient.

Now my assumption is that we will see at least a 72a charger on the Tesla truck, if not a full 80a or even more! The truck will take a ton of energy relative to a Model 3 and so they will want something with more capacity to charge it.

I am mostly just recommending folks install 60a circuits to their wall connectors these days. Most folks don't have 100a of available load capacity laying around on their main electrical service (via load calculations).

 

[Zoomit]

If one was convinced they would have teslas, since the wall connectors can share a circuit, I believe another choice would be to put 2 wall connectors on that 100 amp circuit. That only works if one is going to only get teslas as ev's though.

EVSE's can share a single circuit as long as they have "automatic load management". There are both J1772 and Tesla-specific solutions for that.

Note that the S and the X currently default to a 48a charger, and you used to be able to order it with an upgraded 72a charger but I don't think they offer that right now. So the max Tesla sells currently is a 48a charger across the entire product range.

This is correct. All Tesla's currently for sale come with onboard charges capable of 48A or less.

 

[jjrandorin]

EVSE's can load share on a single circuit as long as they have "automatic load management". There are both J1772 and Tesla-specific solutions for that.



This is correct. All Tesla's currently for sale come with onboard charges capable of 48A or less.

Thanks for the info, I did not know other EV wall connectors offered the automatic load management thats available in othe tesla wall connector. I didnt even know that was the name of that feature. I just knew tesla wall connectors had a feature that allowed it. Nice to know its available on other model wall connectors.

 

[ewoodrick]

Zero chance.
Main reason, aside from hardware, no reason to.

And FYI, the wall charger is overkill.

 

[jjrandorin]

Zero chance.
Main reason, aside from hardware, no reason to.

And FYI, the wall charger is overkill.

I dont think its right (or correct) to assign your value system to everyone else when it comes to something like that. You can quantify how fast the car charges, and how much range per hour someone "needs" to complete their commute. You cant quantify the comfort someone may or may not feel for charging "as fast as possible" especially if its their first EV.

"feelings" are not necessarily rational, but that does not mean they dont have impact / effect.

 

[rhumbliner]

The thicker wire is a lot more expensive and harder to work with

Penny wise and dollar foolish. The cost of labor in any electrical installation dwarfs the cost of materials.

Check out THHN/THWN-2 Wire • Cut by the Foot from $0.09/ft | Wire & Cable Your Way and you’ll see that the difference between 60-amp cable and 100-amp is less than 30¢/ft. So even if the run is 100ft, the cost of cable is less than $30. You’re much better off running the heavier cable while you’ve got the electrician there and future-proofing your installation.

It is true that heavier cable is slightly harder to work with, but what do you care if the electrician is doing the work? When I added a 100-amp sub-panel to my garage (and since I was doing the work) I chose aluminum since it’s cheaper than copper and it’s much easier to work with.

 

[SSedan]

The wire to go big is NOT that expensive yes it cost more and labor goes up because it is harder to handle but 8guage THHN is like $0.58 a foot and 3gauge $1.02, need 2 large and a smaller ground so a 100amp circuit of reasonable length is $2.62 a foot for the wire at Home Depot. If your box is near the garage the cable cost is peanuts compared to the labor.

Far as the truck I doubt it will take over 80amps AC just because that is a 100amp circuit which is half the capacity of most homes, that gives like 58-60miles per hour in an S so probably solidly in the 40s for the truck which is enough for home. Yes more would be nice but given homes generally have just 100-200amp service you would be looking at another service line if the trucks took more than 80.

Yes I know new construction might have more than 200amp but out of the total number of homes it is very rare.

 

[jjrandorin]

Penny wise and dollar foolish. The cost of labor in any electrical installation dwarfs the cost of materials.

Check out THHN/THWN-2 Wire • Cut by the Foot from $0.09/ft | Wire & Cable Your Way and you’ll see that the difference between 60-amp cable and 100-amp is less than 30¢/ft. So even if the run is 100ft, the cost of cable is less than $30. You’re much better off running the heavier cable while you’ve got the electrician there and future-proofing your installation.

It is true that heavier cable is slightly harder to work with, but what do you care if the electrician is doing the work? When I added a 100-amp sub-panel to my garage (and since I was doing the work) I chose aluminum since it’s cheaper than copper and it’s much easier to work with.

How about the rest of the quote you copied from?

The thicker wire is a lot more expensive and harder to work with, and costs more for absolutely no benefit for the model 3 currently being made. If the pull is long, or the cost of the install is high due to difficulty of install, and this is your "forever home" so to speak, might be worth it. Otherwise likely not worth it.

 

[GigaGrunt]

0%

 

[1.21GW]

11kW is sufficient for any battery less than ~125kWh to receive a full charge overnight.

The roadster could have higher than 11kW but maybe not. It is all about miles driven. 11kw is 44Mi/hr* so that is 352 miles of range in 8hrs. You won’t likely be driving that far everyday

(*in the model 3)

Other carmakers talk of 22kW on vehicle chargers in Europe. Mainly because they have 3 phase power.

 

[Evbwcaer]

Lots of people here seem to think they know what is right for everyone. I have really liked that my S can take 80 amps. The fact that the HPWC is available around $400 and can match some Chademos is pretty cool.

I really nice use case for 80 amp AC charging can be found in Red Lodge, MT. The city installed a few HPWC at 80 amps, you can enjoy the town, eat, shop, whatever, and get 120+ miles of range. The town is fairly isolated geographically, experiences hard winters, and is surrounded by mountains, all the right factors to "need" high powered charging. There is no way the town could have afforded DC charging.

 

[SSedan]

I have a 7 mile drive to work "town" is another mile further, still happy I installed the HCWC on a 100amp circuit.
Another benefit I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is in cold climates charging at higher amperage causes more battery warming making for more consistent regen and easier timing of charging.
First winter with a 10-30 warming took such a big percentage of available power I could never get timing right, temperature variations or use variations made it very unpredictable, with faster charging it narrows the window and makes it much more consistent.

Again though I don't ever see them offering over 80amps to vehicle for home, large enough service to the home is just too rare.

 

[rhumbliner]

How about the rest of the quote you copied from?

Sorry if you feel I quoted you out of context. I was simply pointing out the area where you were mistaken. You're focused on the fact that the M3 can only accept 48 amps. Fine. My point is that even in your case, the cost of materials is trivial compared to the cost of the electrician's labor.

It becomes even more pronounced if Tesla raises the charge rate, as @jruben4 questioned, or if he adds a second, daisy-chained Tesla wall connector. In these cases having the electrician make a another visit really bumps the labor costs. @jruben4 is much better off spending a trivial amount of money now and installs a 100-amp circuit.

 

[Rocky_H]

I understand that the current max the M3 will charge with the wall connector is 48A. It appears the wall charger can do 80A if on the correct circuit.

What are the odds the M3 LR will ever be able to accept more than 48A? Just wondering if it's worth a bit more install $$ to put the wall charger on a bigger circuit than 60A, to future proof it?

Very unlikely. Tesla has been demonstrating with several data points that their only trend in the onboard chargers has been downward.

The original Model S has 80A max available.
With the X and refreshed S, that was down to 72A, and then that was removed.
When the long range Model 3 first came out, it was 48A, and then the smaller batteries can't even get that and are down to 32A.

So they have shown that they think fast AC charging should not be a priority or available option for anyone, and want to focus on the onboard charger being smaller and cheaper and for people to rely on Superchargers for any faster charging than overnight.

However, my comments on the above are for the cars. I don't know that I would extend that to the pickup trucks when those come. They are going to have really big batteries and use a very high wh/mile, so they may have more need for solid fast charging at home, so I could see the possibility of the 72A charger or something similar coming back with that.

 

[Kirby64]

The chances of charge current increasing on existing long range cars are zero. None. Forget about it.

The charge circuitry itself is limited to 48A; there's no way to push additional amps even if you wanted to.

On future cars, yeah sure there's a possibility there will be higher AC charge current than the 48A. That being said, it only really makes sense for higher capacity batteries (pickup truck, roadster, etc). Tesla doesn't even want you charging the Model S at 80A anymore. The only reason you should outfit a bigger breaker/capacity to a HPWC is if you want to add a second one in the future and utilize the daisy-chaining functionality.

 

[Evbwcaer]

I think the Robo Taxi is being overlooked here. If a car is driving around all day, earning money, people would be willing to pay for faster AC charging, a car could be putting on 500 miles/day. Faster AC charing also allows a car to take more advantage of off-peak rates, which I suspect will be come more of a "thing" as intermittent renewables comprise a larger share of the grid.

I think the future use-case and energy pricing schemes will make faster AC charing more appealing and profitable.