OFFICIAL BUTTON WATCH

[Knightshade]

I'd like to see where this data comes from. I searched myself, and the latest IIHS data is from 2017, and Tesla is not listed at all.

UK has more recent data available.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1384181267235696652

That pic shows Tesla down near the bottom with brands like Ferrari and Maserati that barely get driven.

Numbers are per 1000 vehicles sold, hence why the low mileage, versus Teslas that tend to be normally driven like other brands.

You can also see the "worst" brands in this chart-

https://twitter.com/x/status/1384179743193325572

Holy crap, don't let a friend drive a dodge!

VW isn't in the top 10 worst, but it's in the top 20 (out of just over 50 brands- Tesla doesn't appear until the 40s on that list from worst to best)



Detailed report on all of this here:

Which auto makes get in the most fatal crashes? | AutoInsurance.org

The kind of car you drive can impact how likely you are to get into an accident. Click here to learn which brands make the most crashed cars in America.

www.autoinsurance.org

Other searches all included lists without Tesla at all. Most of these are by car model, not by brand though, and brand is kind of a cheat when Tesla has so few vehicle designs and other manufacturers have 20+.

This makes no sense.

If the topic is how much the BRAND cares about safety then you look at the data by BRAND.

If VW has 0 deaths in golfs, but massive deaths in Jettas- they don't care about safety AS A COMPANY- they just happened to have made one safe model and at least one really deadly one.

 

[Knightshade]

The Model 3 manual uses the phrase "beta feature" 7 times (all for different functions), and the word "beta" 16 times. The silliest one being auto wipers.

The Chevy super cruise manual and Porsche Taycan manuals use it zero times.

The super cruise manual still mentions how you have to pay attention, how it's only meant for specific roads and situations, and how it can't be counted on to avoid any accidents or anything else. Basically the same disclaimers AP has in the manual.

So is beta just a trigger word for you or something?

 

[Knightshade]

I am quoting this in whole for posterity because it is so insane.
This is peak, unabashed, Tesla kool aid. A defense of Tesla using indefensible arguments befitting the most evil people to ever exist.

You are arguing that a PRIVATE COMPANY has the right to KILL THOUSANDS OF INOCENT, UNINVOLVED AMERICANS

And this is peak anti-tesla kool aid.

Not only is Tesla NOT doing that- they kill less people than nearly every other major brand of car- by a LARGE margin based on the data.

 

[nepenthe]

The Model 3 manual uses the phrase "beta feature" 7 times (all for different functions), and the word "beta" 16 times. The silliest one being auto wipers.

The Chevy super cruise manual and Porsche Taycan manuals use it zero times.

You can prioritize safety, while advancing and developing other functionality that carries inherent risk. Absolute safety is one of those black holes of everything is wrong and nothing is good enough. At some point, you must allow adults to be adults and allow them to decide what is safe and assume risk. Statistically, driving a car is unsafe, perhaps we should outlaw? Statistically, using a knife in the kitchen is unsafe, perhaps all foods should come pre-cut, for everyones safety. Saturated fat is statistically, unsafe - lets also outlaw its use and consumption. Developing a feature-set where you constantly and consistently take into account safety in the context of allowing owners/adults to assume risk that is arguably no different, if not less, than some driver manual controlling their vehicle at all times -- can still be considered placing safety first.

...the chief goal of living is not to merely stay alive, at least not for most people.

 

[gearchruncher]

Not only is Tesla NOT doing that- they kill less people than nearly every other major brand of car- by a LARGE margin based on the data.

Umm, context? I never said Tesla was doing this, nor even suggested they would. I was reacting to @Bet TSLA who was saying it would be OK, even good if Tesla were to do this, because Elon is a long term thinker, and a few thousand deaths is a small price to pay.

We're in full agreement, Tesla never would behave this way, and its ethically reprehensible to suggest it is OK for a private company to unilaterally decide to risk the public's safety to enhance their business goals.

So is beta just a trigger word for you or something?

Context again? It was a response to "I don't think beta means what Tesla thinks it means. I'm pretty sure AP1 cars are still technically "beta"? I'm pretty sure that AP in my "FSD" car still has the beta label too..."

Yeah, Tesla has completely broken any useful definition of "beta" if both auto wipers and city streets autosteer are in "beta", and every single AP function they have ever made is beta. It's an empty word now.

 

[gearchruncher]

Numbers are per 1000 vehicles sold, hence why the low mileage, versus Teslas that tend to be normally driven like other brands.

No, they are not. The "safest" vehicles list you pointed to is a 3 year total fatality number. Not normalized in any way at all.

Our researchers then summed the number of fatal crashes each automaker was involved in from 2017 to 2019 and calculated what percentage each automaker’s number of fatal crashes made up out of the whole.

Of course Tesla is way down the list. They represent less than 1% of all vehicles. Come back when you have something normalized by mile, which is the only way to evaluate vehicle safety.

I can do that for you though:
Tesla had 62 fatalities in 3 years. Those years were 2017-2019. The Model 3 had just been released, Tesla's volume was much lower. Tesla had about 500k cars total on the US roads, but many of those were made in 2018. Average mileage in the USA is 12k miles a year. So that's 18B miles and 62 fatalities. One every 96 million miles (Assuming all 500k cars had existed since Jan 1, 2017, which is not true, but makes Tesla look better).

IIHS says the average USA fatality rate is one per 90M miles. (1.11 per 100M). Really hard to believe the safest brand is 1:96 when the average for all vehicles is 1:90

 

[Silicon Desert]

I must sadly admit you're right. Not about the deep Tesla supporter, that I'm not. But ever since you presented yourself as some ISO compliance 69420 stuff, I don't respect you anymore as a person I'd like to have a fruitful discussion with. You clearly stated that your opinion matters more than others' and yes, from there on I moved on from you.

EDIT: Not "people", just you.

I ignored that person long ago for same reason.

 

[mikes_fsd]

Elon update... Possibly will help with the timing of the button

https://twitter.com/x/status/1413894389299023874

Also, Elon giving credit to his team, and making sure people realize it's not just Karpathy!

 

[gearchruncher]

You can prioritize safety, while advancing and developing other functionality that carries inherent risk. Absolute safety is one of those black holes of everything is wrong and nothing is good enough. At some point, you must allow adults to be adults and allow them to decide what is safe and assume risk. Statistically, driving a car is unsafe, perhaps we should outlaw?

Yep, we're fully in agreement. Like I said yesterday:

Plus, anybody actually trained in safety knows there is no such thing as "safety." All systems have risk. If 100% safety is your top priority, you never make a car at all. There's only acceptable safety balanced against the functionality and value of your product, and anyone that claims safety is the top priority of their system clearly has failed to actually document their priorities. Cars are dangerous. But useful. That's always a hard tradeoff.

I'm glad to see that @mikes_fsd has come around from downvoting it when I said it to loving it when someone else said it. I wonder what made him change his mind.

Developing a feature-set where you constantly and consistently take into account safety in the context of allowing owners/adults to assume risk that is arguably no different, if not less, than some driver manual controlling their vehicle at all times -- can still be considered placing safety first.

Testing in a car on public roads is more complex than that. The failure of your system may injure a completely uninvolved person in another car or a pedestrian. This is not the same as an individual deciding to eat unhealthy food or using a kitchen knife, which do not harm other uninvolved people. Tesla has a responsibility to all of society, not just it's own customers. It needs to in fact evaluate how well it's customers are able to interact with the system they created and the risk that places all of society at. This is also a highly complex system that no consumer is fully able to evaluate the risk of, due to incomplete information about the system. This is why we don't just allow aircraft manufacturers to make airplanes with no oversight and sell tickets to customers with a disclaimer saying "you're an adult, you evaluate the risk."

 

[Tez~La]

So yet another limited release. Ho humm.

 

[mikes_fsd]

So yet another limited release. Ho humm.

Good God, is that all you saw?

What is the substitute to this "ho Humm"?

Where can I find a replacement to the progress that anyone with eyes and a grain of objectivity can see in the release of FSD 8 and now with FSD 9?

I'll wait...

 

[kaffine]

Umm, context? I never said Tesla was doing this, nor even suggested they would. I was reacting to @Bet TSLA who was saying it would be OK, even good if Tesla were to do this, because Elon is a long term thinker, and a few thousand deaths is a small price to pay.

We're in full agreement, Tesla never would behave this way, and its ethically reprehensible to suggest it is OK for a private company to unilaterally decide to risk the public's safety to enhance their business goals.



Context again? It was a response to "I don't think beta means what Tesla thinks it means. I'm pretty sure AP1 cars are still technically "beta"? I'm pretty sure that AP in my "FSD" car still has the beta label too..."

Yeah, Tesla has completely broken any useful definition of "beta" if both auto wipers and city streets autosteer are in "beta", and every single AP function they have ever made is beta. It's an empty word now.

Yet lots of companies do just that on a frequent basis.

 

[gearchruncher]

Yet lots of companies do just that on a frequent basis.

Examples?

 

[Badinfluenz]

Would be nice for a sticky on page 1 for actual button watch information

 

[kaffine]

Examples?

How many times have auto companies gotten in trouble for hiding major defects and refusing to issue recalls? How many times have they decided it is cheaper to payout when there is a fatality vs the cost of repairing the defect?

Ford finally agreeing to do something about the fuel tanks in the Crown Vics but only for police cars not any others even though they all had the same defect.

How many chemical companies have moved production to countries with little/no oversight? How many have had major incidents as a result that have caused major public health hazards?

The entire big Tabaco industry at this point. How long did they know their products had major health hazards and hide the info?

Boeing with the 737 recently did everything they could to try and get it so pilots wouldn't need additional training so they could sell more planes. How did that work out for them?

 

[gearchruncher]

How many times have auto companies gotten in trouble for hiding major defects and refusing to issue recalls?

You're aware Tesla just recently pushed back hard on a recall from NHTSA, almost making NTSA make it an involuntary recall? So maybe Tesla isn't so magic or special.

While I don't fully agree all your examples are the same as a company purposefully, knowingly killing uninvolved, uniformed people to accelerate their R&D, I will point out that you believe it to be unacceptable by the tone you use describing other companies doing it. So we're all in agreement, it is not acceptable for Tesla to release software they know will kill people at a higher rate than the baseline, just because it will make them money, right?

Companies continuing to pollute is a very similar situation I will agree. It's a good example. It's not OK, just like it wouldn't be OK for Tesla to do it or something similar just because Elon has a long term vision.

Accidents and design mistakes are very different than knowingly operating an unsafe system in order to collect data. The tobacco argument is a very interesting one in this context, given the number of supporters here claiming that Tesla drivers know what they are getting in to and have the right to make that decision for themselves.

 

[daktari]

UK has more recent data available.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1384181267235696652

That pic shows Tesla down near the bottom with brands like Ferrari and Maserati that barely get driven.

Numbers are per 1000 vehicles sold, hence why the low mileage, versus Teslas that tend to be normally driven like other brands.

You can also see the "worst" brands in this chart-

https://twitter.com/x/status/1384179743193325572

Holy crap, don't let a friend drive a dodge!

VW isn't in the top 10 worst, but it's in the top 20 (out of just over 50 brands- Tesla doesn't appear until the 40s on that list from worst to best)



Detailed report on all of this here:

Which auto makes get in the most fatal crashes? | AutoInsurance.org

The kind of car you drive can impact how likely you are to get into an accident. Click here to learn which brands make the most crashed cars in America.

www.autoinsurance.org

This makes no sense.

If the topic is how much the BRAND cares about safety then you look at the data by BRAND.

If VW has 0 deaths in golfs, but massive deaths in Jettas- they don't care about safety AS A COMPANY- they just happened to have made one safe model and at least one really deadly one.

Sorry, can't use these numbers found at carinsurance.org. Which auto makes get in the most fatal crashes? (2021 Results)

They don't control for car age and then also safety equipment like DSC, ABS, pyrotech seatbelts and airbags. Tesla are so new, 2014, and all cars have that equipment as standard. A 1985 Dodge or Ford doesn't, probably not a 1995 or 2005 either.
Also crash worthiness has been greatly improve last 10 years.
Driver demographics and DUI not controlled in those numbers.
BTW they list Saab and Saturn, brands that is out of business.

 

[Matias]

Would be nice for a sticky on page 1 for actual button watch information

Here’s the information:
there is no button.

 

[gearchruncher]

And there will never be a button.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1413253018720612360

 

[Tez~La]

And there will never be a button.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1413253018720612360

That is a month in Elon Time so yeah who knows, that could be 2025 for v11.