Ordered 60kw and having some doubts now.

[Apoclyps]

Here's my story.

I didn't have a lot of money to spend on a car. I had just bought a condo mid-2012, so I didn't have a lot of money in the bank (I had "wasted" my money prior to that renting...but to me it wasn't a waste..but I digress). When my ICE started dying, I was looking to replace my ICE with a similarly priced hybrid car...until I saw the Model S.

Several things influenced my buy.
a) my commute. I drove ~12000 miles a year. usually 35 miles round trip for work, and then maybe something farther on the weekends (San Diego, Palm Springs, Vegas).
b) I looked at my finances of what I could put down as a down payment (not much), how much I could afford in monthly payments.
c) The dwindling $$ that was left in the CA Rebate system, so I wanted to act quickly to take advantage of this (they eventually renewed it)
d) My ICE dying
e) Work provided 3 hours of charging at 17 rate miles/hour charge.
f) the planned rollout of Superchargers

The finances told me that I could afford the MS60 with the options I chose. Keep in mind that I also had to think about Paint Protection Film, window tinting costs, increased insurance rates, electrician costs...which would be on top of the cost of the car. If I went with the S85 with the same options, it would be out of my reach. I did not want to get a basic MS85 to lower the cost. Why buy a great car with nothing inside.

I've been happy with the MS60. No range anxiety except for the first time I drove to PS (which was a week after picking up my car). Wasn't sure how the wind tunnel would affect my range, and wasn't 100% sure of how I was going to charge when I got to PS. Had up to a Plan C for charging.

I do have to say that if I had to do it all over again (hindsight is 20/20) I would have waited and saved up more to go with the S85 with the options I wanted, or buy a loaner within my price range (ability to purchase a loaner car was not available at that time). But as they say in the tech field, your system is outdated the moment you buy it.

 

[Kraius]

Just to echo the others, I couldn't justify an s85 either in terms of typical driving patterns vs cost. Of course, I live in Austin, so the only places I would ever drive to have at least one super charger on the way (Dallas, Houston, SA). A 60 works just fine for me (40 miles @ 80mph daily commute). Of all of the arguments of 60 vs 85, I think battery degradation is probably the poorest one to use. No one has any idea how well these "managed" (always liquid cooled, never fully charged/discharged) batteries age. Trying to predict that is like trying to predict the cost of battery replacements in the future. In 8-10 years, you may be swapping the battery out, not because it's lost a few miles, but because now the 700 rated mile battery just went on discount to make room for the 1GW batteries. Other arguments (range, performance) are definitely worth debating.

I think a lot of the folks who aren't coming from BMW/Mercedes/Porsche are looking harder at the cost of 60 vs 85 and grabbing the more economic model (if there is anything economic about a 70k+ car). Buy the car that fits 95% of your needs 100% of the time, don't over extend yourself, and if you have cash left over, invest it somewhere for future battery purchases

 

[paco3791]

Just to echo the others, I couldn't justify an s85 either in terms of typical driving patterns vs cost. Of course, I live in Austin, so the only places I would ever drive to have at least one super charger on the way (Dallas, Houston, SA). A 60 works just fine for me (40 miles @ 80mph daily commute). Of all of the arguments of 60 vs 85, I think battery degradation is probably the poorest one to use. No one has any idea how well these "managed" (always liquid cooled, never fully charged/discharged) batteries age. Trying to predict that is like trying to predict the cost of battery replacements in the future. In 8-10 years, you may be swapping the battery out, not because it's lost a few miles, but because now the 700 rated mile battery just went on discount to make room for the 1GW batteries. Other arguments (range, performance) are definitely worth debating.

I think a lot of the folks who aren't coming from BMW/Mercedes/Porsche are looking harder at the cost of 60 vs 85 and grabbing the more economic model (if there is anything economic about a 70k+ car). Buy the car that fits 95% of your needs 100% of the time, don't over extend yourself, and if you have cash left over, invest it somewhere for future battery purchases

+1 nicely put!

 

[stevezzzz]

No one has any idea how well these "managed" (always liquid cooled, never fully charged/discharged) batteries age.

Tom Saxton with Plug In America has good data on the subject of battery degradation in EV's. Recommended reading:

Battery Study Updates | Plug In America

Based on my sense that Tesla has made improvements in pack design and management, I'd say Model S will experience battery pack degradation no worse than the Roadster (80-85% of original capacity at 100,000 miles, largely independent of age), and may well do significantly better.

 

[CaptDaveHowe]

I am pretty sure this has already been discussed at length but I'm wondering if anybody here has some first hand real world experience with a commute similar to mine. I have a roughly 70 miles/day round trip drive that's 90% highway. At first glance it seemed like the 60kw variant will have just the right range to comfortably make this type of drive on a daily basis, however, having read some user experiences I'm not so sure any more. I have two main concerns:

1. Being in Chicago the weather can be anything from +110F to -10F.
2. Most of my drive is down a pretty fast moving tollway where you need to be doing at least 80mph to keep up with the majority of traffic (especially when everyone is rushing to work in the mornings).

I would love to hear some real world feedback on how this would work on a hypothetical "worst case scenario" day (say zero degrees F), assuming driving 63 miles at 80mph coupled with the fact that I would REALLY PREFER to have the heat set to 67 and the seat warmer on. For the sake of "worst case" let's say the car sits in an unheated parking garage for 9 hours without the ability to charge it for the trip home.

Any feedback would be rally useful while I can still change the order

I also purchased the 60 Kw and for the most part it fits my needs, as I live in the suburbs of NYC and I walk to work. However, on a couple of trips up to Connecticut I learned something when pulling into a Supercharging Station. The 60 Kw is not configured to accept a charge at a Tesla Supercharge Station. A 3G software change and $2500 upgrade charge over the phone and the configuration was changed. This configuration is standard on the 85 kw version. So the $10,000 difference is really now $7500. Beyond that I have been in a few situations where the added mileage would of made my travel easier. So in the end, if done over, I would of ordered the 85. In your case, with your commute, I would certainly suggest moving up to the 85.

 

[rlang59]

I also purchased the 60 Kw and for the most part it fits my needs, as I live in the suburbs of NYC and I walk to work. However, on a couple of trips up to Connecticut I learned something when pulling into a Supercharging Station. The 60 Kw is not configured to accept a charge at a Tesla Supercharge Station. A 3G software change and $2500 upgrade charge over the phone and the configuration was changed. This configuration is standard on the 85 kw version. So the $10,000 difference is really now $7500. Beyond that I have been in a few situations where the added mileage would of made my travel easier. So in the end, if done over, I would of ordered the 85. In your case, with your commute, I would certainly suggest moving up to the 85.

Just to be clear if you order the Supercharger option when you order the car it is $2000 not $2500.

 

[Beskolnck]

I have a 60kw with approximately 10,000 miles to date. I commute 45 miles each way when traveling to my office (Philadelphia to Princeton). No problems and no worries during the Spring, Summer or Fall. With 26 degree weather these past few days I have started to pay a bit more attention. Yesterday I was down to 55 miles range upon arriving home. In my morning travels i noted that regen was not available for 30 minutes or so of highway driving. When I awoke this morning I pre-heated the cabin and selected "MAX Range" and allowed the car to charge for about 40% of the time (1h) and got into a warm car but still without a full regen capability at the start of the drive (15kw) and this took about 15min to get to full regen capability. Tonight i will lower my charge (15amp) and trickle charge so that hopefully it will be completely charged at my time of departure. Upon arriving home i had approximately 65 miles range remaining.

What would be great in the next APP would be a "start time: for cabin temperature and perhaps the ability (at least on the EAST coast) to at the same time provide a final "battery warming" feature.

No regrets yet for the 60 but I'll await final judgement as the weather on the EAST coast gets a bit worse in the coming months

Brett

 

[Pax Omnibus]

Considering the large amount of money you are paying for a Tesla Model S, get the 85 KWH battery instead of the 60 KWH battery. It is only $10,000 more base price. Also, the 85 KWH Tesla Model S comes with a couple of options standard that the 60 KWH Tesla doesn't have. One, you get the Michelin 19 inch tires that give you an extra 3% driving range, a total of 8 extra miles, on the 85 KWH Tesla. This is a $1,000 extra option on the 60 KWH Tesla. Also, the 85 KWH Tesla comes standard with the supercharger plug, if you want to avail yourself of Tesla or other DC fast chargers, especially on long road trips. This is a $2,000 option on the 60 KWH model. When you add these two options onto the 60kwh Tesla Model S, that is a total difference of only $7,000 between the two models on a car you are paying a lot for to begin with. When you add in the 3% extra miles Michelin tires, you get an EPA range of 273 miles in the 85 KWH Tesla Model S, versus 214 miles for the 60 KWH Model S. For an extra $7,000 in price, you get an extra 59 miles in total range. That is a lot of extra range, worth it in my opinion for only an extra $7,000, considering you are paying a lot of money for the car to begin with. Less than 30% of Tesla Model S cars are ordered with the 60 KWH battery, I have read. The large mileage difference, and minimal difference in cost, seems to be why most people opt for the 85 KWH Tesla Model S instead of the 60 KWH model S. I am not a Tesla owner presently, but I am looking into the possibility of one day becoming one, once I can afford it. The above information is based on my research of the Tesla Model S internet sales site.

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Also, you get a better battery warranty with the 85 KWH Model S. 8 years, unlimited miles with the 85 KWH Model S versus 8 years 125,000 miles with the 60 KWH Model S. You also get a faster car with more horsepower and more torque with the 85 KWh Model S versus the 60 KWH Model S. You will also obtain a higher resale value with the 85 KWH Model S versus the 60 KWH Model S, if you ever decide to one day trade the car in or sell it. All the other options for the Model S are the same price, regardless of which battery Model S you choose. In summary, this and the above post, the 85 KWH Model S is a much better overall deal than the 60 KWH Model S, all things considered, for only an extra $7,000.

 

[3mp_kwh]

You can math-out 60kwh as being enough, but among "never enough", the northern climes, the one to several longer trips and the used market, spending those extra 7k, or 8k, seems wise, IMO. There are completed Ebay listings for 60kwh cars near the $60-62k mark, yet anecdotally there aren't many (any?)85's that look like they've fallen near 70k. It is way early, but this is the first real winter for a much bulkier Model S fleet and my bet is that as these used values become more common, the gap between 60 and 85kwh will show better cost recovery for the "base" 85's (w/supercharger, warr. etc). Unlike the other EV's, the MS has a luxury crowd which over time will probably want to fuss less with the "what ifs". Superchargers also look like they may be slower, than slow, in coming.

I'm still a fence sitting Volt owner. 60 seems enough, but what I'll be watching is also what the MS market decides going into next year. Personally, the northern / southern considerations are a big deal to me (despite realizing the Volt loses more % range with its ~5,000 watt resistance heater).

 

[neroden]

I am pretty sure this has already been discussed at length but I'm wondering if anybody here has some first hand real world experience with a commute similar to mine. I have a roughly 70 miles/day round trip drive that's 90% highway. At first glance it seemed like the 60kw variant will have just the right range to comfortably make this type of drive on a daily basis, however, having read some user experiences I'm not so sure any more. I have two main concerns:

1. Being in Chicago the weather can be anything from +110F to -10F.
2. Most of my drive is down a pretty fast moving tollway where you need to be doing at least 80mph to keep up with the majority of traffic (especially when everyone is rushing to work in the mornings).

You are going to get rather bad mileage in the cold. I have gotten as bad as 470 Wh/mile under adverse weather conditions, and the speed limit here is 55 mph, not 80 mph. Of course I have far more hills here than you do in Chicago, which probably makes up for the lower speeds. But anyway, this worst-case scenario would give you range of 127 miles in a 60kWh car. Decide if that's enough for you. With the 85kWh that number increases to 180 miles.

For 70 miles of driving a day, you aren't going to have a problem -- but if you decide to drive 70 miles *each way*, you might have a problem with the 60kWh and need the 85kWh. So think about it.

---
As 3mp_kwh says, the price difference between the 85kWh and the 60kWh seems to persist in the used-car market, so if you can afford the 85kWh you might get the price of that option back when you resell the car. (If you have to borrow money at more than 0% to get it, though, your numbers will vary.)

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What would be great in the next APP would be a "start time: for cabin temperature and perhaps the ability (at least on the EAST coast) to at the same time provide a final "battery warming" feature.

I would be very pleased if the car had a "schedule battery warming" time, separate from the scheduled charge time. Charge up now (or at the "low cost" hours), but separately start the "battery warming" some number of minutes before planned departure while the car is still plugged in and it can be done off of shore power.

Can we get together and propose this to Tesla? It seems like the sort of thing which could be implemented in the software pretty easily.

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I appreciate all the feedback. Definitely lets me make a more informed decision. Having said that I'm starting to think a "base" 85 may be a slightly better value long term. Ditching the high power charging at home (does not seem as necessary with the added range) and the Pano Roof (nice but I am pretty sure i can survive without) covers about 50% of the cost delta.

The high-power charging at home is useless for almost everyone. I got the "twin chargers" back when they were available separately, and I'm glad, because it means I can use 90 amp Sun Country Highway chargers which are all over Canada. But if you're not planning to make Canadian trips, you don't need that either, and if you wait for the Supercharger network to be deployed, you won't even need it in Southern Ontario.

I didn't get the Pano Roof and I don't miss it. I do like the tech package, which has an awful lot of little nice features like driver seat profiles and the powered liftgate. In Chicago, you should get the "subzero weather package" for sure, and I'd probably recommend the parking sensors (which I do miss the lack of) -- it's quite hard to tell where the front of your car is due to the shape of the hood.

I quite like the air suspension (a) for driving on dirt and grass fields, and (b) because our roads around here are supremely bumpy; I know Chicago roads can be kind of awful so you might really appreciate that, but a lot of people prefer the "road feel" of the coil suspension, so that's completely a matter of taste. See if you can try driving one with an air suspension and one without to see whether you care.

I think most of the other options are essentially decorative, and you should skip all of them. I got leather solely because I'm allergic to the cloth, which you probably are not. I'm not an audiophile so I don't notice much difference in sound systems; and the audiophiles seem to prefer to go to a custom shop to do their sound systems. So I'd stick with the base sound system. If you can stand it, get the car in plain white or black and save a bundle on paint.

I'm thinking that the battery, tire upgrade, supercharger access and the warranty (i drive 25+K/year) are probably more worthwhile. Further down the road I'm guessing that resale value will be helped by the larger battery far more then having the cool glass roof or the second onboard charger.

 

[measton]

My round trip is 70 to 100 and I have a 40kwh car

With the money I saved buying the 40 I spent 1k to run a 110 volt to my parking space at work I could have spent 1800 for a 240 volt charge at work. My employer let's me charge for free since it costs them almost nothing (less than a cup of coffee) but I did offer to pay for the electricity. This keeps the battery warm and happy, and gives me 20-24 extra miles for the return trip. So far I haven't been below 37 miles of range when I got home after 110 miles in the cold and wind. I did slow down to 65mph on that trip though. With a 60 you should be fine. I've also mapped out places I can stop and charge for a few hours if there is ever a problem but I don't anticipate one. There's a charger near where I work and I have a friend located about midway between work and home. Finally we have a back up minivan (I also could have purchased this with the money I saved) If it dumps a foot of snow I'll probably take the minivan. What I'm not sure about is how the software limits my energy consumption and how the aging of the 60 kwh pack will affect my range. Nobody will tell me what parameters are used to limit my range.

 

[Vip]

My commute is 70 miles one way. I go about 60 mph for 20 miles, 80 mph for 40 miles, and 70 mph for 10 miles. I have the heater on at 69 and the seat warmers on. The temp outside is around 32.
The 70 miles takes about 90-100 rated miles.
If no way to charge at work then expect some vampire loss of about 5-8 miles over the 9 hours.
If you can get your work to put in an outlet for you to charge on then you would have absolutely no problem with the 60.
I am so glad I got the 85 given my long commute and the cold weather performance.

 

[Chuck Lusin]

My round trip is 70 to 100 and I have a 40kwh car.

I also have a 40kWh, I can go about a total of 135 miles, 100 miles being 80 mph freeway and the rest street. Drivers seat heater on level 1 and HVAC set to 72 degrees. Outside air 50 to 70 degrees.

Nobody will tell me what parameters are used to limit my range.

measton, you are only limited to 72% total charge on your 60kWh pack.