A company with such grandiose plans should be equipped with enough staff to able to create a shuffle that is actually random, and an audiobook track that doesn't reset to the beginning when I open one of the rear doors. Now save me some if that koolaid, I'm thirsty.
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Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Their operating system is based on Ubuntu apparently. I'd be happy if they just ported Clementine or VLC to the car using their own graphical interface as a skin. But as a public company, there may be issues with rights management and stuff when it comes to FREE software. Oh, and Tesla is ALWAYS hiring.
I haven't seen anything with a decent random shuffle function since the Pioneer 12-disc CD changer I owned over 25 years ago. Since it used two 6-disc magazines, I could use the same ones in my car. It was cool.
Naturally, it was stolen by an ex-girlfriend. That BiZZAtch!
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Check out the Empeg. It was the pinnacle of car based MP3 players in software/functionality/interface. Tesla would do well to mimic.
Bootleggers and moonshine peddlers?! Are you calling anyone who has ever installed an aftermarket stereo or LED lighting Al Capone? That seems a bit far fetched. Yes, I agree, many less than scrupulous people do shady things with cars but then again that is human nature, Tesla being cagey won't stop them. To be quite honest, the only criminal is Tesla, who is getting away with running an auto service racket ($175/hr WTF) of epic proportions thanks to their factory owned "dealerships", I may hate tweed clad car dealers but this is one arena where they shine, you can actually buy parts for a reasonable cost from a local shop. I say this after having driven 6 hours roundtrip going to the Dedham service center, only to have the main issue I came in for go unfixed, despite them having the car for 5 days and rolling me for an unneeded new instrument cluster. These are the very people, who are according to Tesla, are "eminently" qualified to service my car, frankly these days I'm having a hard time trusting they could attach a lug nut properly and torque it to 129 lb/ft.
Sorry to say you are wrong on that count, the almost 7 million residents of Massachusetts have decided and enshrined in state law the right of owners, independent repair shops and technicians to fix their own cars or other peoples. It's not hypothetical and it's the only reason that Tesla has had to provided any documentation WHATSOEVER. Many states are looking at similar legislation. If congress wasn't embroiled in another "gate" scandal or filled with a bunch of moronic old men we would be looking at a Federal law to enact the same legislation.
Yeah, that's right, I'm going to buy, maintain, and run: a foundry, injection molding machine, paint shop, and metal stamping press (to name a few) all so I can make parts that Tesla is already making and distributing at far lower costs due to volume purchasing. I think it is you who needs to get real. You can't claim people don't know how to fix their car properly with the correct parts, if Tesla doesn’t provide either one, you need training and OEM parts to do the job right, Tesla wishes to hoard both and claim ignorance. The smell of BALONY SANDWICH reeks all the way out here on the East coast.
Pained? You must either have a very big shoe size or a very low IQ. Please try reading some of my previous posts, I didn't just "go to school" for engineering, I've actually been practicing it, you should try it sometime. I make an effort to service everything I own, am currently designing, building, and fabricating my own house and solar system, while writing a book about doing off-grid solar. That makes me sharp enough to know that what Tesla is doing is more crooked than a dogs hind leg. People have been fixing, tinkering, modifying and maintaining their own cars for literally a century. To use your example, the Model T was BUILT to be serviced (if something ever did break on the most rugged car ever made) by a farmer out in the middle of rural America and run off of just about any fuel available, that is the car and attitude that BUILT America, sweat, blood, and a truck load of ingenuity. The more I see these days the more I think we have turned into a garbage news consuming junk food eating society that doesn’t want to get off the sofa to change the channel, let alone fix anything, better to be "environmental" and chuck it into a landfill where it travels to a 3rd world country to be picked apart by kids.
Please enough of this "they are so fragile right now" BS they have been a company since 2003 and now have a stock evaluation (however valid) greater than GM, they are big boys, playing in the bog boys arena, they better get used to people throwing some rotten fruit now and then. If Tesla ever wants to remove the smug grin from the haters face (i.e. the news media) and make EV's mainstream then they better be clamoring at the door of every automotive enthusiast and racing fanatic available to work on training them in the dangers and benefits of a gasoline free automobile. EV's will not go mainstream until there are millions of experienced local technicians, parts suppliers and involved owners who know better than the well-endowed blond on Channel 8 news asking if they feel "safe", knowledge is power, don't let Tesla hoard both.
I'll settle for Al Capone with a great sounding aftermarket stereo.....
KidDoc
Member
The $175 an hour is insane. I don't want to work on my car but since I cannot shop competing shops I'm stuck paying them more than I make per hour as an MD. Did they go to school/training for 11 years? Super annoying.
The $175 doesn't go to the tech, any more than physician (and facility if applicable) charges goes to the physician. Don't forget the overhead of the building, equipment, support staff, utilities, insurance, etc.
How much do your patients get billed for your time vs. how much you get paid for your time?
KidDoc
Member
That is an excellent point but how much do Tesla mechanics pay in malpractice, yearly fees, and ancillary stuff to bill insurance?
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
I have Friends and Relatives who don't make it a week (heck, even 24 hours) without throwing an aftermarket soundsystem in their cars after purchase. Then they upgrade the system again within a month. Then once again within three months. I don't think they ever stop, really. But none of them have ever needed to use the OBD II port to do it either.
Stop? No. But they can make an effort to delay them. And they do. I'm good with that.
I've always thought the practice applying a fee for 'labor' is [BOLSHEVIK] no matter the price charged or service performed. To me, if those guys are your employees, you should already be paying them. That is the company's responsibility, not mine. And on the other hand, if the fee is because working on my car is somehow taking time away from your ability to work on someone else's? Again, that is the company's problem, not mine. Now, it could be that for whatever reason there may be State laws that require that repair shops call out 'labor' for legal or regulatory reasons and if that's OK, fine... But if it is really just a way to further subsidize the internal cost for the parts you stock or the cookies and coffee in the waiting room, I'd rather it was honestly listed as a 'reaming fee' or something instead.
Well, yes... And, no... It depends on the parts at some places. Some things they will only sell to people that have a business license and/or Federal Tax ID number. But sure, you can get stuff over-the-counter to OEM spec lots of places. Of course, that simply contributes to the everlasting paradigm of ICE vehicles becoming nothing more than rolling spare parts conveyances as they age... But it is what it is and stuff.
Wow. That sucks. Sorry you had so much trouble.
That works just fine for someone who wants to fix an Oldsmobile, that is designed on the same platform as a Pontiac, that is shared with a Buick, and is almost indistinguishable from the Chevrolet version of the exact same OEM part that is simply a different colored bit of plastic if used on a Cadillac. Something that was on the market for around 25 years, and sold to millions of people over that time, and maybe hasn't been offered at all since 2002 or whatever. But you know what? Tesla was founded in 2003, and their first cars were Delivered in 2008. A full 100 years or so after GM was founded (the same year my Granddad was born).
OK, OK... I apologize. I was perhaps a bit out of line there. Just trying to be funny is all.
But I do still believe that at this point in their development it is not unwise for Tesla to be very careful with whom they allow to work on their vehicles. I expect that with the release of Model ☰ there may be a lot more interest in people wanting to become certified for the full gamut of repairs on Tesla's cars. But even if they were to reach upwards of 100,000, 150,000, or 200,000 units into U.S. Customers' hands within the next 18 months or so, that may not be enough to support independent shops to the level they have become accustomed with ICE vehicles. Such an endeavor might not be profitable for them at all.
Yeah. Well, I'm smart enough to know I should just skip this part...
Well, sure... It was a time when there was a blacksmith in every town. A time when just about anyone that knew the basics about working on steam engines, water wheels, windmills, or anything else with cogs and gears inside could suss out how to get an ICE running, even if he had never seen one before. Though gasoline was used as a primary fuel, that was mostly because it was cheap... The preferred fuel, I believe, was kerosene back then. And when you couldn't find that, there was always someone around with a sour mash still nearby...
Well, I grew up on a working farm, so I certainly know what you are talking about. My relatives that grew up in Los Angeles often do not know how to fix anything, and will make no effort to try beyond maybe calling a repairman... eventually. They'd much rather just go 'buy another'. Then they wait for the neighborhood 'bulk trash day' to throw stuff out, that is actually in perfect working order.
C'mon, MAN! Tesla has had more than a couple handfuls of rotten fruit chucked their way... They have had entire dumpsters and truckloads of garbage deposited on their doorstep -- daily -- for several years on end.
I'm pretty sure that Tesla is 'always hiring'. And, if not for efforts by General Motors in particular, along with multiple representatives of 'independent franchised dealerships' Tesla would have expanded their own Tesla Stores and Service Centers throughout the nation more quickly than Starbucks and Krispy Kreme locations. The very group of guys you speak of are precisely who they want to work for them instead.
I tend to disagree with most statements that begin with "EV's will not go mainstream until..." but that is mostly just my personal bias showing through. Because I have believed electric vehicles would simply be 'better' since I was a little kid playing with my first slot car racing set. As much of a 'car guy' as I am, I have always silently wondered, each time I looked at an awesome vehicle, "Why isn't this an electric car?" I am personally overjoyed that Tesla exists to make that childhood dream come true for me.
Thanks for giving me more insight into your position. You and I don't agree, but I appreciate your taking the time to contribute further to conversation and understanding. Best of luck to you in all your endeavors, including getting more Service Centers, easier access to parts, and the technical manuals to Tesla's vehicles in a timely fashion.
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Brando
Active Member
They didn't really sell anything til 2008 [Roadster 2,500 in 4 years] and 2013 was the first full year of production of the Model S. Tesla has yet to sell 200,000 cars in the US. And the 8 year warranty period won't end for the first cars [2012] until 2020. Then your concerns may have some merit, we shall see in 2020 as things change fast in this modern era.
With around 15 million vehicles sold per year in the US, you have plenty of other options. Vote with your dollars, buy what is best for you. Perhaps Tesla isn't for you.
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Because if something untoward happens to any other vehicle no one pays any attention to it. With Tesla it's a headline. No other auto manufacturer has entire industries and a compliant press ready to jump on any problem which even remotely involves a Tesla. That comes with the territory when you're disrupting markets, both in how the car is powered and how it's sold.
St Charles
Tesla, not TSLA!
So you are saying that this is somehow solved by withholding knowledge to perform the repair properly? It seems to me that attempting to keep everything in house guarantees that bad repairs will happen.
St Charles
Tesla, not TSLA!
The fact of the matter is, people like @wk057 and @Ingineer have shown that there is no mystical black magic that powers these cars. Furthermore there are people like @Btr_ftw who are actively documenting their tear down and rebuild projects.
I fail to see how releasing instructions on how to replace a coolant pump or door handle will cause irreparable damage to Teslas core business.
I fail to see how releasing instructions on how to replace a coolant pump or door handle will cause irreparable damage to Teslas core business.
jelloslug
Active Member
Anyone that really wants a service manual for the Model S or X can get one right now with a bit of searching. This does not necessarily help with any diagnostic tools needed but the info is out there.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
That 90+ years of public experience helps quite a bit.
What exactly is a 'repair' anyway...? It seems to me that people have been trained over the past century to expect they should have to remove and replace parts on cars with regularity in order to keep them running. It is rare that anyone gets their car repaired, that is, someone taking the time to make sure the components that are on your car stay there, and are made to work somehow, when they didn't before.
Collision repair, body work, is another thing entirely. That is bending and shaping metal back into its original position. Replacing those components that are beyond repair. Tesla already has independent shops to do that, and the network is expanding, with more and more authorized shops.
Oh, but the 'risk' is still there for traditional automobile manufacturers. Just, perhaps, not to the great extent it exists for a relative fledgling such as Tesla. Difference is, when someone does something foolish to their Mustang, Camaro, or Hellcat, no one goes on the news blaming Ford, Chevrolet, or Dodge. They point the finger at the idiot that modified their car to be something the manufacturer did not (?) intend. The term 'personal responsibility' is thrown around, same thing with alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. The media protects those industries because it is lucrative to do so. But Tesla doesn't even buy advertising, so they are fair game to be targeted and eliminated, blamed for every crash, every injury, every fatality.
I find it interesting that members of NADA proclaim that 'independent franchised dealerships' and their on-site shops can help 'protect' the public at large from traditional automobile manufacturers, by spotting warranty issues early on. They claim to be a safety buffer to spot recurring issues with cars and repair them when those manufacturers would not. Yet for over a decade, people were being killed in GM cars with faulty ignitions and not one 'independent franchised dealership' raised an alarm, protested the faulty part or requested it be replaced/redesigned, or stopped selling the cars.
Brass Guy
Active Member
I just want to be able to change my coolant, or swap out a <sarcasm> light bulb </sarcasm> without paying someone else because the firmware needs to be flashed. I'm not going to reprogram it to go over 100 mph in reverse. (Although 17 is a bit lethargic.)
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Every manufacturer withholds knowledge of what they presume is their own intellectual property -- unless they are stupid.
The Tesla Model S appeared on the market in 2012. The most recent Haynes Buick Repair Manual is from 2013, for the LaCrosse. The Buick LaCrosse sold over 57,000 units in 2012, while the Tesla Model S sold only 2,558 units. Now, the script has flipped somewhat since then, as the LaCrosse was outsold 29,156 to 27,582 by the Model S in 2016. It was one of several GM Sedans that were each outsold by Model S that year. In fact, the Model S outsold all Buick passenger cars except the Verano, which moved 30,277 units -- and every single Cadillac passenger car.
Hmmm... Maybe that's why there is no more recent edition of a LaCrosse repair manual from Haynes? Maybe Haynes Publishing only covers cars that sell reasonably well, and are expected to be darkening the bay door openings at independent automotive service centers at a regular pace. Maybe that's why they don't seem to cover Porsche, Volvo, and Volkswagen cars from 2012 either.
Hmmm... As a publisher, they can choose which vehicles they cover. Amazing this thing called 'choice' for a business. Nice to know they cannot be forced to do something they might find isn't in their best interest, ain't it...?
