P3D crowd: Competing vs. high-performance ICE from a roll?

[cOoTeR]

The m5 is nicer is just about every regard. Theres a reason why it's significantly more expensive. I'm not a fan of bmw much at all, but the M cars are all quite nice.

The M5 is in an entirely different class in terms of passenger space, cargo space, comfort, refinement, goes to 190, and produces full power no matter if the tank is full or near empty.

My point is that it is much more comparable to the model S P100D or P100DL pretty much in every regard.

I can't justify spending the money on either so I'll continue to enjoy my Model 3 Performance.

 

[Dolemite]

Ok... much more confident after tonight. Went up against a Dodge Challenger Scat Pack Hemi Demoncat 392 kibbles edition or whatever. Sounded mean. Gotta say I wasn’t expecting to pass him from a roll, let alone as quickly as I did. Started at ~30 and by ~80 it was over. Then we went from a dig and that was just brutal.

oh and this was @ 30% battery and with my mom and her dog in the back.

 

[Perscitus]

scat aka animal fecal matter, droppings etc. If that was a concious choice by Marketing, they dont watch enough nature shows (or assume / know the target demographic doesnt). Either way, a fitting name for archaic depricated tech.

 

[Lindamon]

... while it's true enough Gs will cause a human to pass it, it's a lot more of them than any production vehicle can produce. Like, a LOT a lot more.

I'm unaware of any production car that even hits 2gs (the really really quick ones are in the 1.x range... the P3D is not... I think the Dodge Demon at 1.8gs holds the current record)

A typical human can handle ~5gs before any concern for consciousness.

How quick is 5 gs? A top-fuel dragster can go from 0-100 MPH (not 60) in about 0.86 second which is just a little over 5gs.

As a former competition aerobatic and airshow pilot, I will say the G’s effect on the human body in a car is much less likely to cause one to pass out than in an aircraft, for the simple reason that the blood is not pulled out of the brain as badly in a car because of your seating position.

In a top end aerobatic aircraft, the seats are reclined to reduce the effect of blood pooling in your legs and abdomen when pulling G’s, but it still tends to head for your legs in a hard pull.

I routinely pulled up to 7 G’s positive, and pushed 4-5 G’s negative while flying an Unlimited competition sequence. I’ve pulled even more in a few instances. For a few seconds this much can be tolerated, if you have trained regularly and practice often. Negative G is far more uncomfortable than positive G, btw.

You do have to work your way up to this amount by increments, practicing several times a week for a month or so at the beginning of each season, and before anyone says you would pass out when doing this, yes you would if it was sustained, but in competition and airshows, the pull or push only lasts for about 3 seconds before easing up. Picture how long it takes to pull from level flight to vertical, it’s very quick. But sustain it for much longer, and even the most fit won’t remain conscious. It has happened to some pilots I know, usually at the beginning of each season.

That’s why fighter pilots need G suits, they sustain the pulls for much longer in dogfights. A G suit would be useless in competition, by the time the suit inflated the pull would be over.

My Performance X is fast, and my brother’s S is faster, but they are nothing compared to the G’s in an aerobatic aircraft. If you have some issues during acceleration, one thing you can do is, tense your leg muscles, then your abdominal muscles, and grunt loudly (Valsalva maneuver) while accelerating. This helps keep the blood from pooling in your lower body. Aerobatic pilots do this routinely.

The more you do it, the more used to it you get.

I love flooring it in my X, it’s how I get my Vitamin G these days.

 

[bpobill]

scat aka animal fecal matter, droppings etc. If that was a concious choice by Marketing, they dont watch enough nature shows (or assume / know the target demographic doesnt). Either way, a fitting name for archaic depricated tech.

Do You Know These Popular Dodge Terms?

Your post gives Tesla owners a bad name. Tesla is not the best thing on the road. Not even by a long shot. I love my model 3 but I would trade it in one second for dozens of vehicles.

 

[Knightshade]

Do You Know These Popular Dodge Terms?

Your post gives Tesla owners a bad name. Tesla is not the best thing on the road. Not even by a long shot. I love my model 3 but I would trade it in one second for dozens of vehicles.

I don't claim it's the best car ever made, but I can't think of anything that doesn't cost 2-4x more I'd trade it for (and certainly not for anything Dodge makes these days)

If I could think of such a car I would've bought that instead.

 

[MichaelP90DL]

At some point, it actually gets bad for the human body. The 3 to 4 second range seems fine, but in my experience, once you get under 3 seconds 0-60 (like a P100DL which I have had some rides in) the acceleration can actually make you dizzy. At some point, I imagine too much acceleration could cause you to pass out or worse. You probably need to be a good health to ride in a Roadster V2 at max acceleration.

Wear an Apple Watch. They way you'll know if you have a heart attack when you stomp the go-pedal.

 

[MichaelP90DL]

Ok... much more confident after tonight. Went up against a Dodge Challenger Scat Pack Hemi Demoncat 392 kibbles edition or whatever. Sounded mean. Gotta say I wasn’t expecting to pass him from a roll, let alone as quickly as I did. Started at ~30 and by ~80 it was over. Then we went from a dig and that was just brutal.

oh and this was @ 30% battery and with my mom and her dog in the back.

How did your mom and the dog react?

 

[FlyNavy01]

As a former competition aerobatic and airshow pilot, I will say the G’s effect on the human body in a car is much less likely to cause one to pass out than in an aircraft, for the simple reason that the blood is not pulled out of the brain as badly in a car because of your seating position.

In a top end aerobatic aircraft, the seats are reclined to reduce the effect of blood pooling in your legs and abdomen when pulling G’s, but it still tends to head for your legs in a hard pull.

I routinely pulled up to 7 G’s positive, and pushed 4-5 G’s negative while flying an Unlimited competition sequence. I’ve pulled even more in a few instances. For a few seconds this much can be tolerated, if you have trained regularly and practice often. Negative G is far more uncomfortable than positive G, btw.

You do have to work your way up to this amount by increments, practicing several times a week for a month or so at the beginning of each season, and before anyone says you would pass out when doing this, yes you would if it was sustained, but in competition and airshows, the pull or push only lasts for about 3 seconds before easing up. Picture how long it takes to pull from level flight to vertical, it’s very quick. But sustain it for much longer, and even the most fit won’t remain conscious. It has happened to some pilots I know, usually at the beginning of each season.

That’s why fighter pilots need G suits, they sustain the pulls for much longer in dogfights. A G suit would be useless in competition, by the time the suit inflated the pull would be over.

My Performance X is fast, and my brother’s S is faster, but they are nothing compared to the G’s in an aerobatic aircraft. If you have some issues during acceleration, one thing you can do is, tense your leg muscles, then your abdominal muscles, and grunt loudly (Valsalva maneuver) while accelerating. This helps keep the blood from pooling in your lower body. Aerobatic pilots do this routinely.

The more you do it, the more used to it you get.

I love flooring it in my X, it’s how I get my Vitamin G these days.

Good explanation. Pulling G can be pretty fun... G-suits are not.

No matter how fast cars get, no one will ever have an issue with passing out from acceleration. The human body can take something like 40+ G's sustained for a few seconds in the x-axis before permanent damage (google John Stapp if you're curious). It's only the Y-axis (head to foot, like in aircraft) that will pull blood from your brain and risk G-LOC.

 

[dsgerbc]

no one will ever have an issue with passing out from acceleration

Nobody without a brain tumor.

 

[Mayonayze]

My point is that it is much more comparable to the model S P100D or P100DL pretty much in every regard.

I can't justify spending the money on either so I'll continue to enjoy my Model 3 Performance.

Ditto. Maybe i’m still in my honeymoon period, but as i consider what i get for my money out of my M3, i can’t help but chuckle. I imagine it’s what it must be like to get an insider trading stock tip. I’ve had some other top-tier value sleds, my C6Z immediately comes to mind; but this M3 is on another level entirely when it comes to the use-case that lives at the intersection of performance, daily drivability, safety, subtlety, and technology at a price accessible to mortals.

 

[raptor5244]

Ditto. Maybe i’m still in my honeymoon period, but as i consider what i get for my money out of my M3, i can’t help but chuckle. I imagine it’s what it must be like to get an insider trading stock tip. I’ve had some other top-tier value sleds, my C6Z immediately comes to mind; but this M3 is on another level entirely when it comes to the use-case that lives at the intersection of performance, daily drivability, safety, subtlety, and technology at a price accessible to mortals.

Agreed. I traded my C7 Grand Sport for an M3P+. While it does not offer the raw and visceral experience of a true sports car it delights in many ways and seems to do everything pretty well.

I do wish the performance model offered a little more to differentiate it from the other trims though. I think some sportier seats with better bolstering (I mean this is the track model), maybe a front splitter and rear diffuser change, sportier wheels with wider tires, maybe an optional HUD, magnetic ride suspension, etc. I am sure over time as more EV competition hits the market we will see sportier EVs.

 

[CitiesSprinter]

Agreed. I traded my C7 Grand Sport for an M3P+. While it does not offer the raw and visceral experience of a true sports car it delights in many ways and seems to do everything pretty well.

I do wish the performance model offered a little more to differentiate it from the other trims though. I think some sportier seats with better bolstering (I mean this is the track model), maybe a front splitter and rear diffuser change, sportier wheels with wider tires, maybe an optional HUD, magnetic ride suspension, etc. I am sure over time as more EV competition hits the market we will see sportier EVs.

It'll all come in due time, just like the Model S Plaid edition. I could certainly go for a Model 3 Plaid!!

 

[Mrcarcrazy]

I think I’m going to drive my Lotus tomorrow. Or maybe I won’t. The Tesla m3P is such a brilliant commuter. Stupid fast and unassuming.

Agreed. I traded my C7 Grand Sport for an M3P+. While it does not offer the raw and visceral experience of a true sports car it delights in many ways and seems to do everything pretty well.

I do wish the performance model offered a little more to differentiate it from the other trims though. I think some sportier seats with better bolstering (I mean this is the track model), maybe a front splitter and rear diffuser change, sportier wheels with wider tires, maybe an optional HUD, magnetic ride suspension, etc. I am sure over time as more EV competition hits the market we will see sportier EVs.

completely agree with your requests for the model 3 performance. The now negligible acceleration boost over the non P, and the red brakes (which still need upgrading for track use) aren’t nearly enough for a performance sedan.

Seats would be a great starting point. Some aero bits would be nice, and I’d like more than 0.5 second 0-60 and definitely more than -.1 30-60 difference compared to a normal AWD.

of course this isn’t to discount how retarded quick the car is. But you’ve got to differentiate it if you want to continue to call it a “performance model”

 

[raptor5244]

I think I’m going to drive my Lotus tomorrow. Or maybe I won’t. The Tesla m3P is such a brilliant commuter. Stupid fast and unassuming.


completely agree with your requests for the model 3 performance. The now negligible acceleration boost over the non P, and the red brakes (which still need upgrading for track use) aren’t nearly enough for a performance sedan.

Seats would be a great starting point. Some aero bits would be nice, and I’d like more than 0.5 second 0-60 and definitely more than -.1 30-60 difference compared to a normal AWD.

of course this isn’t to discount how retarded quick the car is. But you’ve got to differentiate it if you want to continue to call it a “performance model”

Yeah, that is my main beef with the P. It doesn't really stand out like an M car from BMW or any other "performance" trim from other manufacturers. I don't think they should go crazy with it but it needs a more aggressive stance. I think 19" wheels with wider tires would have helped and a little more aggressive front and rear facia would have been enough. Lowering the car .39" is not my idea of performance suspension. They should at least have installed some thicker sway bars (it may have them but no one would know) and increase the spring rates a bit. The brakes and tires are decent but the pads are weak for track duty.

Now that 0-60mph times are at the ridiculous level, the performance trim should at least out handle the other trims and they should have left some 60-120mph power on the tap so the P could continue to pull at the top end and turn in a low 11 sec 1/4 mile time.

 

[Knightshade]

At least one of the two bars on the P is larger than AWD, but it's a 1mm difference IIRC

If Tesla had put more effort into the P suspension (mag ride for example) I'd have considered the 11-16k upcharge (in 2018) a lot more worthwhile.

 

[raptor5244]

At least one of the two bars on the P is larger than AWD, but it's a 1mm difference IIRC

If Tesla had put more effort into the P suspension (mag ride for example) I'd have considered the 11-16k upcharge (in 2018) a lot more worthwhile.

Yeah, the P+ price to was too much more me when they first started selling them but I jumped in back in May when they were selling for $59k, which at the time was about a $6,500 delta between the AWD with 19" wheels vs. the P+. Plus the tax credit was $3750 still and Tesla gave me top dollar for my trade. I still didn't think the P+ package was really worth the $$$ (the tires are very good and the extra bling with the brakes and subtle spoiler was nice) but the extra acceleration was what made me pull the trigger. Now with the P- and AWD+ the gap has blurred.

I am still trying to get used to the limited options Tesla offers, basically wheels and paint color. I understand why, but it is difficult to go from a web page of some of the other manufacturers where you have options galore, can pick from 10+ colors, interior colors, more wheel styles, suspension options, track mode options, audio options, etc. to personalize your vehicle. Tesla will eventually get there but for now, sometimes I feel like the Model 3 is like an iPhone. Pick your model, color, done. Simplicity it good and all but it is nice to have more customization as well. The aftermarket seems to be getting better so should help a bit.

 

[Jenremoved]

I am probably in the minority, but I like how understated and “normal” the M3P+ looks. The new M cars are flashier than I’d like. I’d prefer to blend in while driving.

 

[ElectroFish]

I am probably in the minority, but I like how understated and “normal” the M3P+ looks. The new M cars are flashier than I’d like. I’d prefer to blend in while driving.

I for one loved that my F80 m3 did not look anything like a 335 or 340 .

 

[raptor5244]

I am probably in the minority, but I like how understated and “normal” the M3P+ looks. The new M cars are flashier than I’d like. I’d prefer to blend in while driving.

I get it and feel pretty much the same. I am not looking for a head turner or anything like that but it just lacks a little for a performance trim. I think a lot of it is the stance. The tires are just too narrow and increasing them to 20" doesn't really help.

A good example would be the BMW 230i vs. the BMW M2. The M trim does not go overboard. They just need to chisel up the front and rear facia a bit and give it a more aggressive stance.