P3D+ w/ 5% increase: 1/8 Mile Numbers

[wordless888]

I think it at least make some sense. The comparison is for how fast you can pull to your claimed performance when cruising on highway. Yes they can keep at 4000rpm for the start of the test, but can you keep 4000rpm all the way along the highway? No one will drive like that. Even launch control mode cannot keep you rev 4000 for 10 minutes.

I get that ICE cars are going to be slower off the line and in situations where instant torque is needed because of the nature of combustion engines, gears, etc. I personally like to compare apples to apples though and if I’m racing someone, I want them to be at their best.

And sure, it might be in top gear at 30mph, but if you are going to race someone, most people would downshift (which again, takes time in ICE cars). And often when people in an ICE anticipate a race (which is usually pretty obvious), they will often shift to the proper gear.

But if you really want to compare 30-50 or other random times between an EV vs ICE when the ICE is in top gear, it’s your prerogative. That’s just not my cup of tea though.

 

[StealthP3D]

But if you really want to compare 30-50 or other random times between an EV vs ICE when the ICE is in top gear, it’s your prerogative. That’s just not my cup of tea though.

To me, it makes a lot of sense to count all the time it takes to go from one speed to another.

Here's but one real-world situation:

You are following a car on a county road at 60 mph at a safe distance when all of a sudden you see the left turn signal go on and the car slows quickly to 10 mph before making his left turn. Because there is a string of oncoming traffic his turn is slightly delayed and you are almost upon his bumper before he clears your lane. Right before that, you notice a car behind closing the gap rapidly. You immediately punch it and accelerate up to 65 mph (otherwise you would have been rear-ended by a driver who just got a text message and was trying to open it). The time it takes to go to low gear is very relevant here (and so is the time it takes to shift from 1st to second). With an EV, there is none of this dinking around getting in the correct gear, you simply punch it and go. That's real acceleration, not fake laboratory "already in the right gear" acceleration. The EV has it, the ICE car doesn't. This is just one of many common scenarios that might require quick and unplanned acceleration to either stay safe or achieve your unplanned maneuver easily and effectively.

Because the real world doesn't make sure you are perfectly situated every time you might need to move quickly.

 

[JeffK]

The dyno doesn't measure motor torque, it measures wheel torque (and any associated losses along the way including aerodynamic drag of the wheels themselves).

But, yes, I did overstate it, it would be more accurate to say the motor current remains constant (at its peak amount) from 60-100 mph. And that current limit is software limited.

In a Model 3, 60 mph is about 7100 RPM's and 100 mph is about 12,000 RPM's. Because the motor loses around 15% efficiency between 7100 and 12,000 RPM's, power will be down by an equivalent amount (at 12K vs. 7.1K RPMs). But that's hardly enough to make a multi-speed transmission perform better, once you consider the additional transmission losses associated with a multi-speed transmission and the necessary clutch and/or torque converter and the shift lag. It's just better to have the more efficient single speed transmission, no clutch or torque converter, fewer bearings, less rotational inertia and no shift lag. Many of the performance advantages of electric cars stem directly from these advantages associated with not having a multi-speed transmission.

As usual, the dyno does not tell the entire story.

You'll have to tell that to Rimac as they are doing the two gear approach.

 

[StealthP3D]

You'll have to tell that to Rimac as they are doing the two gear approach.

You might tell that to Tesla. Their very first EV's had two-speed transmissions. They ditched the two-speed transmission very quickly. Tesla found it was better to improve the motor and power electronics so they didn't need to rely on the mechanical transmission. I don't know much about Rimac but they are likely at an early stage of development, like when Tesla thought it was a good idea to add a two-speed transmission. The more advanced your motor, the less benefit a two-speed transmission offers.

 

[JeffK]

They ditched the two-speed transmission very quickly.

They actually did this only because it kept breaking. They might bring it back with Roadster 2.0 who knows. They could be getting around it with that third motor. I can't wait until there are more details.

 

[StealthP3D]

They actually did this only because it kept breaking. They might bring it back with Roadster 2.0 who knows. They could be getting around it with that third motor. I can't wait until there are more details.

Yes, it was breaking because it's another mechanical component in a high torque situation. When you add a lower gear ratio, the torque goes up. This helps acceleration off the line assuming the mechanical components can handle it but it causes more transmission losses, adds weight and rotational inertia. Improving the power and efficiency curves of the motors is a better solution unless you have the single minded goal of breaking world records, weight and expense be damned. Even the maximum range suffers due to the extra drag and weight of the multi-speed transmission.

 

[afadeev]

There's no vehicle in production that can match the Tesla's performance at it's price point. Sure a higher-end Porsche and even a modified BMW M4 in autocross would beat a P3D+, but at what expense?

Be careful what you wish for!

In an autoX format, a well prepped Miata or S2000 will beat all M3s - BMWs & Tesla.



a

 

[StealthP3D]

In an autoX format, a well prepped Miata or S2000 will beat all M3s - BMWs & Tesla.

Yeah, and a decent go-cart can beat them all.

So what?

 

[afadeev]

Yeah, and a decent go-cart can beat them all.

So what?

There is a fair of BMW/Porsche derision going around on these forums. Not sure why.
Horses for courses.

I love my M3's, but for the pure joy of driving on a tight autoX or road course, nothing beats a light (< 2500 lbs) well handling car.
Neither M3 is that.

If you are a car guy, you will understand.
If not, you wont.

a

 

[MXWing]

There is a fair of BMW/Porsche derision going around on these forums. Not sure why.

I don't think anyone is deriding BMWs or Porsche's. Those WERE the cars to own at the turn of the century. Tesla is just the new hotness.

I still respect legacy however. For that reason I will never use M3 unless I am discussing BMW.


also...

Wanna know how to make an Alfa Romeo faster than any other Alfa Romeo?

Tow it with a Model X.

 

[caskater47]

The P3D is pretty good on a track as far as I can tell. At the last Corsa event the times for the Tesla group were often better than any of the ICE groups by several seconds. Yes there were faster times by some ICE cars but id say on average the Tesla had most people beat.

 

[StealthP3D]

I love my M3's, but for the pure joy of driving on a tight autoX or road course, nothing beats a light (< 2500 lbs) well handling car.

Well, yes, for the pure joy of driving a decent go cart will put any car to shame. And if you've ever expertly riden a motorcycle with a fine chassis, engine and gear box you will never rave about a light, well handling car. The motorcycle is a balanced symphony of pleasure that no vehicle with four wheels that leans the "wrong" way in corners can compare to.

If you are a car guy, you will understand.
If not, you wont.

Most of us don't drive on AutoX courses, we drive on public roads so we don't want or need go-carts, light track cars that make a lot of noise or motorcycles. But if I'm going to experience a twisty road to the maximum, it will be on one of my Ducatis, not a BMW (or a Tesla) that leans the wrong way in corners. If you are not a skilled rider, you will not understand.

Different strokes for different folks.

However, the claim under discussion was that lots of cars will put a P3D to shame in any contest other than stop-light to stoplight acceleration. I think that silly statement has been well debunked. In its price range, the Model 3 will pretty much whoop most any comparably priced car well past any legal speed. And it's a hoot to drive. Detractors will always pick some subjective quality to try to put Model 3's "in their place" but that is to be expected. No one claimed it was better for every person in every imaginable way.

I think we've had enough moving of the goalposts for one thread. The thread title is about P3D's acceleration in the 1/8 mile (approximately 0-90-some MPH). Interestingly enough, the P3D has almost exactly the same performance in the 1/8 mile, the 1/4 mile and 0-60 MPH as my 996cc Ducati, a bike that whoops almost everything else on the road (Performance Tesla's and exotic, expensive supercars aside). That said, the Ducati needs an expert rider of 160 lbs. for this to be true. The P3D just needs the pedal mashed to the floor. One slight mistake on the clutch release or improper body position and the P3D is pulling into the lead.

Wait, that was before the recent power bump of the Model 3. Now the P3D will win every time!

 

[brianman]

The P3D is pretty good on a track as far as I can tell. At the last Corsa event the times for the Tesla group were often better than any of the ICE groups by several seconds. Yes there were faster times by some ICE cars but id say on average the Tesla had most people beat.

With the Model S, my two biggest challenges were overheating and (for dual motor) the nannies (because you can't turn them off with just the touchscreen). It's a heavy car and suffers what comes with that, but I could work within those limits.

With the Model 3, the overheating arrives later and is far less punishing and the nannies are no longer in the way -- and both issues are improved further with Track Mode. Now the issue is available energy. For me, it's becoming apparent that at least 240V/48A charging is critical to get the most out of a track day, and a nearly full track day requires supercharging at or near the track. It's lighter than the S and I clearly need to invest in addressing wear rate and overheating issues with the brakes that I never had in the S.

With 2020 Roadster, I suspect (at my skill level) the overheating may completely be a non-issue and the 620mi range might be enough to get me through a track day full out without really worrying about charging. One can hope.

 

[MXWing]

Well, yes, for the pure joy of driving a decent go cart will put any car to shame. And if you've ever expertly riden a motorcycle with a fine chassis, engine and gear box you will never rave about a light, well handling car. The motorcycle is a balanced symphony of pleasure that no vehicle with four wheels that leans the "wrong" way in corners can compare to.



Most of us don't drive on AutoX courses, we drive on public roads so we don't want or need go-carts, light track cars that make a lot of noise or motorcycles. But if I'm going to experience a twisty road to the maximum, it will be on one of my Ducatis, not a BMW (or a Tesla) that leans the wrong way in corners. If you are not a skilled rider, you will not understand.

Different strokes for different folks.

However, the claim under discussion was that lots of cars will put a P3D to shame in any contest other than stop-light to stoplight acceleration. I think that silly statement has been well debunked. In its price range, the Model 3 will pretty much whoop most any comparably priced car well past any legal speed. And it's a hoot to drive. Detractors will always pick some subjective quality to try to put Model 3's "in their place" but that is to be expected. No one claimed it was better for every person in every imaginable way.

I think we've had enough moving of the goalposts for one thread. The thread title is about P3D's acceleration in the 1/8 mile (approximately 0-90-some MPH). Interestingly enough, the P3D has almost exactly the same performance in the 1/8 mile, the 1/4 mile and 0-60 MPH as my 996cc Ducati, a bike that whoops almost everything else on the road (Performance Tesla's and exotic, expensive supercars aside). That said, the Ducati needs an expert rider of 160 lbs. for this to be true. The P3D just needs the pedal mashed to the floor. One slight mistake on the clutch release or improper body position and the P3D is pulling into the lead.

Wait, that was before the recent power bump of the Model 3. Now the P3D will win every time!

Welp, discussion over.

Or we can keep it going by discussing topics like panel gaps on M3 vs Model 3.

How about that cheap interior?

Or that a M3 would be more successful than the Model 3 at running the Indy 500.

The 3P is a super car that really can’t be bought at any price from any other auto.

Interior yes.
Speed yes.

Total package considering pure BEV, supercharging network, autonomy prospects, software updates, etc etc

Tesla is king. You can call me a fan boy but I see that as objective fact.

You would be insane to spend money on another car.

Tesla is killing it in the 35-250k range.

Especially something like an iPace, Etron or whatever.

Slower and more expensive than a 3.
Less space and slower than a S.
Less seating and space than an X and can’t tow a 747.

X can be faster as well at a premium.

 

[EXOTIC1]

^^^^
sales
at the 35 to 60k range doing well
over 100K = decent (sales have slowed on higher end MS) need a refresh
250K will be interestingfor sure

 

[Wizard2416]

I still feel happy that I beat a Porsche 911 at LA forest on my Model 3 RWD...

 

[MagnusMako]

To people thinking the 3 can't be fun or worthwhile at autoX or anything other than a straight line, atleast note this video showing the Model 3 performing well in a Moose test. As a stock car, it ties the record with the fastest entrance speed in their tests. Low center of gravity, regenerative breaking, extremely predictable, lightning fast reaction to inputs - all things that give the 3 an edge even if it's not a "prepped miata".

 

[JoshPA]

Someone needs to get custom software on a P3D - the 60 foot times are so nerfed, this car would be a monster in the 1/8th - I'd be happy with the 60 foots I used to pull with my diamond star in the late 90s. I'm not even saying we need 1.49s - 1.6s should be fine unless axles are made of glass.