Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[AWDtsla]

I have been lurking in this thread for a while (P85DL) but AnonNJ's credible and very informative post has prompted me to post.

Right up until AnonNJ's post I was staunchly anti-Tesla on this, but I've now changed my viewpoint.

A performance ICE car launched 625 times will not produce the same horsepower at launch 626 as it did at launch 1.
Same thing for a Tesla P model, just a radically different mechanism: a software enforced wearing out rather than a catastrophic hardware failure mode.

It may in fact make more power, as the rings seat in properly.

Solution to get back the horsepower is the same as for an ICE - replace the worn out components. Of course, in Tesla's case, that's a very expensive repair since it means you replace the whole car.

'Tis a brave new world we live in, but as always, better communication from Tesla would have made a world of difference.

No this is wrong. It's not "wearing out". It was not engineered properly to handle the design loads for at least the warranty period, and now are walking back performance that wasn't even up to spec when the car was delivered.

 

[P85DEE]

I have been lurking in this thread for a while (P85DL) but AnonNJ's credible and very informative post has prompted me to post.

Right up until AnonNJ's post I was staunchly anti-Tesla on this, but I've now changed my viewpoint.

A performance ICE car launched 625 times will not produce the same horsepower at launch 626 as it did at launch 1.
Same thing for a Tesla P model, just a radically different mechanism: a software enforced wearing out rather than a catastrophic hardware failure mode.

Solution to get back the horsepower is the same as for an ICE - replace the worn out components. Of course, in Tesla's case, that's a very expensive repair since it means you replace the whole car.

'Tis a brave new world we live in, but as always, better communication from Tesla would have made a world of difference.

Interesting take on it, and somewhat hard to argue with it, as an ICE vehicle beat on for 625 launches would no doubt start losing power long before then.

Might start to lose compression, or other problems secondary to that kind of duty cycle.

In fact, in some race programs, parts are replaced, and engines rebuilt at a given time interval, whether they are at a breaking point or not.

Indeed someone with that many launches on the same car would have likely busted something by then or well before then.

BUT

The counter argument is......."If I don't bust anything, or if I don't lose power as a natural consequence of beating 625 launches out of my car, well then don't afflict me with those consequences."

 

[AWDtsla]

Going ludicrous cost what, $35,000 more the the next model down? $10k of that was just for their fancy new contactors. You think contactors costs $10k a piece? No. That money should have been to cover any warranty costs they may incur from higher failure rates.

IANAL but this sounds like breach of contract to me.

 

[lolachampcar]

First, what happened to BeVs having fewer parts thus performing better over a larger number of miles?

Second, set aside the launch mode thing for a second and think about people using the car for exactly what it was intended and marketed for, a normal performance sedan.

As I said earlier, its like buying the car with 275 miles of rated range, using the full rated range too many times and having Tesla reach out and take 27.5 or more miles away from you.

It could very well be that the above behavior becomes acceptable. There are a lot of things that have happened over the last number of years that are wholly unacceptable to me. It could be that this too is passing me by.

 

[Andyw2100]

View attachment 209552

Did somebody post this already? tesla.com order page has been modified. Note how it's not just about abuse.

Yes, that's been posted already.

Yup. @disillusioned posted about it in post number 506, and @brianman posted the actual disclaimer in post 507.

 

[AWDtsla]

First, what happened to BeVs having fewer parts thus performing better over a larger number of miles?

Should still be true, assuming it was engineered properly. Bonding wires so small that they fatigue from the heat stress? Really Tesla? No engineer could have told you they are too small? They f***** up, and should be doing the right thing with warranty replacements.

Second, set aside the launch mode thing for a second and think about people using the car for exactly what it was intended and marketed for, a normal performance sedan.

Yup.

As I said earlier, its like buying the car with 275 miles of rated range, using the full rated range too many times and having Tesla reach out and take 27.5 or more miles away from you.

If you want to add insult to injury, I think this is going on as well. The value of rated miles in my car seems to be terrible compared to say the value of a rated mile in a 70D. If you just look at the trip meter it could seem fine. Apply some math and you notice massive amount of energy "disappearing"

It could very well be that the above behavior becomes acceptable. There are a lot of things that have happened over the last number of years that are wholly unacceptable to me. It could be that this too is passing me by.

I don't see how. Lawyers.

 

[smac]

@AWDtsla I agree a well engineered ICE could do 625 launches, I'm sure you've seen this (clearly the benchmark car Tesla were going after).

No doubt Porsche tested this thoroughly, dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's before release of either the car or more importantly the specs. To doubly cover themselves they quite clearly understated the 0-60 time which is advertised as 2.9 but on a really good launch can hit 2.6. So even if it isn't quite as fast after 625 launches they still have some leaway because of the less favourable advertised spec they sold it on.

I will defend Tesla here though, they simply lack the experience (and resources to an extent) to be more rigorous as they scale. I'm hopeful this will come as they mature. (Taking on board this is little comfort here as the horse has already bolted)

 

[AWDtsla]

@AWDtsla I agree a well engineered ICE could do 625 launches, I'm sure you've seen this (clearly the benchmark car Tesla were going after).

I don't know if you've been keeping up here, but you don't even need to launch your car once to get PERMANENTLY power limited. Daily driving can do it.

edit - permanent

 

[NOLA_Mike]

The part of this developing story that I don't get is the seemingly complete disconnect between @ElonMusk and @TeslaMotors. I mean, Elon is tweeting away about Tesla performance models, Easter eggs to unlock even more performance from the current Halo Cars, teasing @fiksegts (Drag Times) about possibly getting an update before his next drag race while at the same time Tesla Motors seems to be quietly restricting performance and taking away HP.

 

[FlatSix911]

Cognitive dissonance

The part of this developing story that I don't get is the seemingly complete disconnect between @ElonMusk and @TeslaMotors. I mean, Elon is tweeting away about Tesla performance models, Easter eggs to unlock even more performance from the current Halo Cars, teasing @fiksegts (Drag Times) about possibly getting an update before his next drag race while at the same time Tesla Motors seems to be quietly restricting performance and taking away HP.

 

[Tech_Guy]

Thanks for the info.
So..
If I floor it five times a day during my daily commute, I'm gonna lose 10% of my car's power in less than 6 months.
That's just $#!^

What a great way to put this... really puts it in perspective!

Yes. I have used 10% or 15% whichever counter wins first in only 5000 miles of purely Road only driving without launch mode

Either counter wins the jackpot whichever one gets there first as was explained to me

Tesla has skated by on lots of stuff, but I think this one is going to have ramifications they did not foresee.

Agreed

Just driving the car contributes to the mixture number which will hit a limit at some point during the lifetime of the vehicle. Launch mode, max power, and hard acceleration just move the needle faster.

Great information but very disappointing none the less... I wonder how this all applies to a P100D as well since supposedly the battery is no longer and issue and the limits would only be for driveline parts...

I further inquired face-to-face with my service manager. Effectively any further inquiry has been shut down and I am unable to obtain any additional information. I was guided that this should be a warranty issue. If a battery pack was producing 500 kilowatts and now is producing 400 kilowatts then the p90d with Ludicrous not performing to specification therefore it would need remedy under warranty.

The information was good while it lasted.

There is absolutely no reason why every person on this forum cannot contact their service manager and request their three counter stats at any moment.

Its strange they have not provided them to me when I last asked I was told something along the lines of they can't tell me that information. I will be trying again now!

This information was not able to be obtained. However it seems to suggest based on Tech Guys experience that approximately 100 -125 kilowatt output.

From my data the car originally produced 511KW at 100% SOC and max battery ready, now the car with 100% SOC and max battery ready will only produce 435 a loss of more then 100 Horsepower

Yeap, I've already asked for my trade in value. I plan to get an S60 rwd and never look back again to a Tesla Performance car.
I would sell privately and exit from Tesla world completely but first year's depreciation is huge. Since P90D is already superseded by P100D and equipped with AP1, nobody wants to buy this car at the moment. At least not for the money I'd like. And this fiasco is the final nail in the coffin of my 6 months old baby.

The same thought has definitely crossed my mind!

Plausible failure modes include:
A) Failure of the inter-cell bonding wires due to thermo-mechanical stress caused by (cyclic) resistive heating
(A valid reason to have doubled the bond wires on the 100kw pack design)
B) Failure of the bond wires in/to the IGBTs in the inverter
While there may be others, both of these phenomena are thermal cycle dependent, and require a certain temperature to be achieved. In that sense, a cumulative counter of high current cycles (above some minimum duration) would be a rational counter measure.

All that technical speculation aside. I can't wait for the lawyers to get a hold of this one. Tesla seems to be trying to thread a needle between lemon law time expiration (often 12 or 18 months) and the onset of real warrantee expense. I predict their current solution is unworkable from a public relations perspective. Even the fawning motorhead press will cry foul on this one. No reason owners should take this BS liability pushed back to them.

Agreed

Volleyball players are added to my ignore list.

Only interested in facts, logic, evidence and intelligent or otherwise interesting discussion. And minimal tolerance for FUD based speculation.

Since there are no clear reports from multiple owners with any details on any power cuts, was there any info from any Tesla rep on what exactly is supposed to happen and when? 1600 down to 1500? MBP no longer increases battery temp or triggers addl power? Any info at all on what the effect is supposed to be?

@Tech_Guy is one instance but it seems there may be other issues there.

Just trying to solicit accurate information on what exactly the consequences wld be and how it wld translate to real driving experience?

To run back through my car originally produced 511KW of power at 1625 amps, my first power cut was noticed at the end of September along with the 8.0 update my cars power dropped to 480KW and using max battery power did not add any additional power like it use to. In my testing my cars amps were reduced to 1520 or so along with this power cut. I reached out to Tesla and also reached out to @Ingineer and discussed this with him via a private conversation. I received Teslas official reply and discussed that with @Ingineer who was then able to confirm this with his various Tesla contacts confirming the story Tesla was telling me... now a few months later my car seems to have hit another threshold and lost more power down to about 435KW I have not tested the amperage yet with the most recent loss but I will take this data reading soon in the interest of information. Tesla has not provided me any counter info so I can't say for sure but its my guess that I've triggered another level of the counters thus the new power level.

It would be interesting to see those stats for @Tech_Guy's car...

I have asked but was not provided the info unfortunately, I will try again this week!

No, our understanding is that the double bond wires were used in the P90DL V2 and V3. The P100D uses a completely new pack design, and we think it uses a flexible printed circuit for interconnects instead of bond wires: Patent US20140212695 - Flexible printed circuit as high voltage interconnect in battery modules

We also think it uses a completely different cooling method: Patent US20150244036 - Energy storage system with heat pipe thermal management

Both of which is why I wouldn't think the P100Ds would have the same limits.

Thanks for that info!!!

I've just tested my car again, the max I can get was 460kw with 100% soc. I'm gonna blame cold weather and rain for now.
I'm gonna report again tomorrow.
I'm feeling like my P is falling off.

My P and ____ fell off months ago

It's sounding like this may have been going on as far back as late September, unless the poster's power loss back then was due to something else.

Newer P90DL makes 662 hp at the battery!!!

Thats correct first noticed this in late September with the 8.0 update!

 

[Tech_Guy]

The part of this developing story that I don't get is the seemingly complete disconnect between @ElonMusk and @TeslaMotors. I mean, Elon is tweeting away about Tesla performance models, Easter eggs to unlock even more performance from the current Halo Cars, teasing @fiksegts (Drag Times) about possibly getting an update before his next drag race while at the same time Tesla Motors seems to be quietly restricting performance and taking away HP.

Ya I don't get it id love to see @fiksegts (DRAG TIMES) ask Musk about this in a tweet....

 

[Garlan Garner]

So, @Tech_Guy. Your car is in the Service Center right now? For this very issue?

 

[Tech_Guy]

So, @Tech_Guy. Your car is in the Service Center right now? For this very issue?

No the service manager is going to be contacting me back this week about my issue.... I've been pressing for more information for a few weeks now...

 

[lolachampcar]

Tech_Guy,
You are remarkably well composed. I'm not sure I could demonstrate that level of composure given the reductions you have seen.

 

[Garlan Garner]

No the service manager is going to be contacting me back this week about my issue.... I've been pressing for more information for a few weeks now...

Ahhhh... That's horrible to hear. A few weeks? Arrrggghhhh.

I hope you hear something soon.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Tech_Guy,
You are remarkably well composed. I'm not sure I could demonstrate that level of composure given the reductions you have seen.

I know I couldn't. I would have already reached ludicrous mode.

 

[Tech_Guy]

Tech_Guy,
You are remarkably well composed. I'm not sure I could demonstrate that level of composure given the reductions you have seen.

Thanks @lolachampcar trust me I'm quite amped up over all this just trying to send that energy in the right direction. Its nice to be able to discuss it here and I appreciate everyones feedback on the issue as well as the extra information that some have you have uncovered!!!

 

[SDRick]

No the service manager is going to be contacting me back this week about my issue.... I've been pressing for more information for a few weeks now...

To add insult to injury, your situation is causing you to inadvertently do a smidge bit of false advertising (just like Tesla)? Your moniker still shows "Always in Ludicrous Mode"!

 

[P85DEE]

The part of this developing story that I don't get is the seemingly complete disconnect between @ElonMusk and @TeslaMotors. I mean, Elon is tweeting away about Tesla performance models, Easter eggs to unlock even more performance from the current Halo Cars, teasing @fiksegts (Drag Times) about possibly getting an update before his next drag race while at the same time Tesla Motors seems to be quietly restricting performance and taking away HP.

It's looking like he's not up on the day to day activities and policies of his own company

Underlings are apparently making key decisions here.

Wouldn't be the first time. I'm hearing that for a while, Teslas were being "discounted" unbeknownst to him too.

Elon Musk to Tesla employees: NEVER discount a car