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Parking ticket worth a challenge
- Thread starter mick4545
- Start date
Most private parking companies CBA fighting because they make 100% profit from people that pay up.. I suspect you'll never hear anything.
M1tch
2021 M3P with EAP
I would say no. That’s what happened with mine and it turns out they just stopped sending any form of communication. It’s now with a debt collection agency (same letter layout, different company name
).I’ve told them my side of things and they can’t do anything because it’s not their decision, they are there to threaten me into paying. I said stop the silly letters and send me a court date. They have closed the file, sent it back to the parking company and I’ll await what’s next…..
Jason71
Well-Known Member
I live somewhere where pay and display is not common but I am rather paranoid. When I do buy one I photograph it and after I place it on the dash and close the door I take a photo of it on the dash. Rules out any possibility of it being disturbed when the door closes or any nonsense from unscrupulous or incompetent parking attendants.
I always fight - currently 7 - 0 up vs Westminster City Council (brother used to live near Baker Street Tube, council had the habit of closing bays over christmas period for replacement buses, they didn't consider perhaps people had parked there before the closure notice went up and are still legitimately parked.
Only went as far as independent appeal once - the council sent a massive file of their evidence. I just sent back a note saying 'their own picture here shows they didn't put the closure warning notice up with the required 24 hours notice', bam, win.
Also won against parking firm in Southampton when they changed the rules on how long you could park for free and that you now needed to get tickets - they hadn't put signage up to cover every entrance.
Only went as far as independent appeal once - the council sent a massive file of their evidence. I just sent back a note saying 'their own picture here shows they didn't put the closure warning notice up with the required 24 hours notice', bam, win.
Also won against parking firm in Southampton when they changed the rules on how long you could park for free and that you now needed to get tickets - they hadn't put signage up to cover every entrance.
EVer Hopeful
Active Member
and that's exactly what I mean. Poke around enough and you learn so much that you can easily spot their weaknesses. It's a bit like Judo where you use their strength against them
In that zoning case I got involved in the city called our neighbourhood HappyValley and gave a location that was completely wrong. We're actually HappyValley No 4. I'm assuming there are a 1, 2 and 3 as well, but I don't care because their mistake means all their paperwork was wrong
Another one was when the neighbours dimed me to Code Enforcement because the fence I built between us and them, from the house to the street started at the max of 4 ft, but due to sloping ground ended up at 4' 4". The Code Enforcement guy knocked on my door to explain all this so I said "Let's go and take a look" and we went and he measured it in front of me, so I responded (in a very friendly manner because it's not his fault that he has to do this) that it might be 4' 4" now, but by the time I'd finished leveling up the ground in front of it by a slope "not to exceed one in four" it'd be back to 4 ft (I'd just happened to read Part 51 the night before). He was ok at that point, because really there was nothing he could say
In that zoning case I got involved in the city called our neighbourhood HappyValley and gave a location that was completely wrong. We're actually HappyValley No 4. I'm assuming there are a 1, 2 and 3 as well, but I don't care because their mistake means all their paperwork was wrong
Another one was when the neighbours dimed me to Code Enforcement because the fence I built between us and them, from the house to the street started at the max of 4 ft, but due to sloping ground ended up at 4' 4". The Code Enforcement guy knocked on my door to explain all this so I said "Let's go and take a look" and we went and he measured it in front of me, so I responded (in a very friendly manner because it's not his fault that he has to do this) that it might be 4' 4" now, but by the time I'd finished leveling up the ground in front of it by a slope "not to exceed one in four" it'd be back to 4 ft (I'd just happened to read Part 51 the night before). He was ok at that point, because really there was nothing he could say
If a ticket is fairly issued I would advise to pay it, but when tickets are issued that I feel they are just taking the P then I look to fight. The one thing I always find is that none of the companies abide by their own code of practice - they all stuff up somewhere - its finding the non compliance that's the challenge.
Most companies - not just parking companies have so many rules, codes of practice etc that no one in the company knows or understands them and using a companies own rules against them is most likely to produce a good result, they loose or back down.
Usually they fail at the first contact letter, they send a letter by standard mail - so they have no proof they have contacted you - their code of practice indicates they have to offer you a discount rate for early settlement, now if you don't reply to that first letter, and obviously don't settle or appeal then the next letter arrives indicating they want the full amount, with no proof they offered you the discount rate, they have now breached their code.
The code of practice is 48 pages and I always find non compliances, but i don't reveal specifically what they have failed to do - and most of the time i just ignore every letter from them - but i build a file in chronological order and document their code breaches - ready for a court hearing.
The penalty notices from private companies are simply an invoice for an alleged breach of contract, however, only a court can decide if a breach took place and then determine the penalty if they agree with the parking firm - and courts decide that value by "reasonable Losses" the company present to the court, however its usually much lower that the higher rate asked for by the parking company.
I know this all sounds like I'm constantly getting parking tickets - I'm not and indeed haven't ever had one, but Friends and the wife in particular do seem to like picking them up and for me its a challenge to find the loopholes and get them off.
Many of the parking firms trade under more than one name - which they use to "escalate" the case to intimidate and put fear into the alleged perpetrator. You will get multiple letters and each letter contains more red ink than the last one, they will tell you its been upheld in court and precedence set that the "fine" must be paid and a court will agree with them, plus you will receive a CCJ, your credit damaged, wont be able to get any credit nor a mortgage - so you should just pay them.
The truth of this is completely different, If they actually take you to court - which most of the time they wont as its time consuming and expensive and they cant claim any additional costs - plus majority of people just pay them so they settle for that as a law of averages.
If - and its a big IF, the court agrees a breach has taken place - and they make an award provided you settle that fine within 28 days their is no CCJ, no record, credit is unaffected - its all done and dusted - over with - and no further repercussions.
My wife was shopping in a national store, parked in their almost empty car park - with enough parking places to maybe hold 400 cars (this is also important) and exceeded the time allowance of 90 minutes - the whole time she was buying in their store - went nowhere else, arrived back at her car 10 minutes after the 90 minute limit - and they send a parking charge notice - ANPR. After the second letter - with the full fine now required she contacted the store, kept her details private but asked about exceeding the car park time but has a receipt to prove she was in their store all the time as the receipt was time stamped - They just washed their hands of it - said the car park is not their responsibility (a lie) They couldn't do anything about it (a lie) and she would need to appeal and see the result of that. It is their car park - they contract out the management of it but they retain the right to waive a parking charge - they can and do issue registration numbers of staff cars which are parked their all day - so they could have sorted that out but obviously didn't want to - Thanks Matalan - you lost a good customer.
Well they wrote so many letters - not one responded to, I await the official notice of intended action and will respond to that indicating "see you in court" - however it never came.
Their "escalation" after perhaps 10 letters was to pass the paperwork to a debt recovery company (Zenith) which just so happens to have the same postal address - so just another trading name of the same company - perhaps just another pleb on the next desk - wow scary.
Ignored all contact letters again, then they referred the case to solicitors (double scary) A different address but the letter confirmed all replies go to their business address, so i contacted the solicitors by phone, revealing no details but asked the question If they were aware a parking company were sending letters out for alleged parking breaches, indicating they had been engaged to resolve the case and that replies are asked to go to the parking company and not the solicitor - They refused to comment, all flustered. (This action would be another breach of the code of practice)
Just to go back to the car park with hundreds of places and only a handful of cars in it - It it went to court and the court agreed their was a breach of contract then losses suffered by the company are relevant to the fine value. The idea is that overstaying prevents other people from shopping in that store and therefore the business suffered losses - but if the car park is empty then no loss could be considered as reasonable, so it would simple be a token award for a technical breach.
It all eventually faded away - no more contact though they did try a few times at least a year after they had practically given up. Its now been so long they cant resurrect the case - its dead - but Matalan have never received another penny from my Wife - which I'm pleased about as they sell tat anyway.
She was going to pay the fine, but I said I will pay it if it ever goes to court and she looses - if you let me handle it all - don't ever do anything but pass me the letters - so she just forgot about it all and i bloody well enjoyed myself with it all, indeed i think I would have liked a day in court as my evidence would sink them without trace.
We all know what is fair and what is sharp practice, This fine wasn't fair at all, just some jobsworth and some *sugar* parking company, the result was they got nothing, incurred expenses and Matalan have lost a customer - great result.
Most companies - not just parking companies have so many rules, codes of practice etc that no one in the company knows or understands them and using a companies own rules against them is most likely to produce a good result, they loose or back down.
Usually they fail at the first contact letter, they send a letter by standard mail - so they have no proof they have contacted you - their code of practice indicates they have to offer you a discount rate for early settlement, now if you don't reply to that first letter, and obviously don't settle or appeal then the next letter arrives indicating they want the full amount, with no proof they offered you the discount rate, they have now breached their code.
The code of practice is 48 pages and I always find non compliances, but i don't reveal specifically what they have failed to do - and most of the time i just ignore every letter from them - but i build a file in chronological order and document their code breaches - ready for a court hearing.
The penalty notices from private companies are simply an invoice for an alleged breach of contract, however, only a court can decide if a breach took place and then determine the penalty if they agree with the parking firm - and courts decide that value by "reasonable Losses" the company present to the court, however its usually much lower that the higher rate asked for by the parking company.
I know this all sounds like I'm constantly getting parking tickets - I'm not and indeed haven't ever had one, but Friends and the wife in particular do seem to like picking them up and for me its a challenge to find the loopholes and get them off.
Many of the parking firms trade under more than one name - which they use to "escalate" the case to intimidate and put fear into the alleged perpetrator. You will get multiple letters and each letter contains more red ink than the last one, they will tell you its been upheld in court and precedence set that the "fine" must be paid and a court will agree with them, plus you will receive a CCJ, your credit damaged, wont be able to get any credit nor a mortgage - so you should just pay them.
The truth of this is completely different, If they actually take you to court - which most of the time they wont as its time consuming and expensive and they cant claim any additional costs - plus majority of people just pay them so they settle for that as a law of averages.
If - and its a big IF, the court agrees a breach has taken place - and they make an award provided you settle that fine within 28 days their is no CCJ, no record, credit is unaffected - its all done and dusted - over with - and no further repercussions.
My wife was shopping in a national store, parked in their almost empty car park - with enough parking places to maybe hold 400 cars (this is also important) and exceeded the time allowance of 90 minutes - the whole time she was buying in their store - went nowhere else, arrived back at her car 10 minutes after the 90 minute limit - and they send a parking charge notice - ANPR. After the second letter - with the full fine now required she contacted the store, kept her details private but asked about exceeding the car park time but has a receipt to prove she was in their store all the time as the receipt was time stamped - They just washed their hands of it - said the car park is not their responsibility (a lie) They couldn't do anything about it (a lie) and she would need to appeal and see the result of that. It is their car park - they contract out the management of it but they retain the right to waive a parking charge - they can and do issue registration numbers of staff cars which are parked their all day - so they could have sorted that out but obviously didn't want to - Thanks Matalan - you lost a good customer.
Well they wrote so many letters - not one responded to, I await the official notice of intended action and will respond to that indicating "see you in court" - however it never came.
Their "escalation" after perhaps 10 letters was to pass the paperwork to a debt recovery company (Zenith) which just so happens to have the same postal address - so just another trading name of the same company - perhaps just another pleb on the next desk - wow scary.
Ignored all contact letters again, then they referred the case to solicitors (double scary) A different address but the letter confirmed all replies go to their business address, so i contacted the solicitors by phone, revealing no details but asked the question If they were aware a parking company were sending letters out for alleged parking breaches, indicating they had been engaged to resolve the case and that replies are asked to go to the parking company and not the solicitor - They refused to comment, all flustered. (This action would be another breach of the code of practice)
Just to go back to the car park with hundreds of places and only a handful of cars in it - It it went to court and the court agreed their was a breach of contract then losses suffered by the company are relevant to the fine value. The idea is that overstaying prevents other people from shopping in that store and therefore the business suffered losses - but if the car park is empty then no loss could be considered as reasonable, so it would simple be a token award for a technical breach.
It all eventually faded away - no more contact though they did try a few times at least a year after they had practically given up. Its now been so long they cant resurrect the case - its dead - but Matalan have never received another penny from my Wife - which I'm pleased about as they sell tat anyway.
She was going to pay the fine, but I said I will pay it if it ever goes to court and she looses - if you let me handle it all - don't ever do anything but pass me the letters - so she just forgot about it all and i bloody well enjoyed myself with it all, indeed i think I would have liked a day in court as my evidence would sink them without trace.
We all know what is fair and what is sharp practice, This fine wasn't fair at all, just some jobsworth and some *sugar* parking company, the result was they got nothing, incurred expenses and Matalan have lost a customer - great result.
And thats basically the same reason I fought all the tickets from Westminster City Council - if they are too damn stupid to realise _when they actually put up the bay suspended bag on the bay_ that the car that is _legally_ parked may not be returned to for a few days because you know, its christmas so people tend to be indoors eating and drinking. Yet they still stuck a new parking ticket on it each day.
Likewise the one in Southampton I'd been parking in the same carpark for years, coming in via the same entrance when they decided to change the length of time for free parking from 2 hours to 30 minutes - I found out later it was because an Ikea had just opened nearby. I was unaware, drove in and parked as per usual. Got back to my car and saw a ticket, warden was still doing his rounds so asked him why, he said they'd reduced the time for free parking, I asked how was I supposed to know, he said there were signs. From where I was standing I could see the entrance I had used and could see no new signs - I asked him to point out the sign there, he couldn't. Still wouldn't do anything about the ticket and I had to appeal however I easily won as I'd bothered to take photos of the entrance I'd used before going home that day.
I don't know about Westminster, but neighbouring RBKC has a clause in the resident permit application that stipulates
"Please remember that it is your responsibility to check where your vehicle is parked each day before 8.30am to make sure that no suspension is about to take place. If you cannot check personally, you should arrange for someone else to check and, if necessary, move your vehicle."
Ridiculous, but therefore it is impossible to win an appeal even if the yellow suspension card has magically 'appeared' overnight without the proper 48 hours notice...
The increasing red ink is quite funny. Last time I had one (a while ago now) parked in an empty car park after being advised to do so by the hotel I was staying at.. I got a letter, waited, got another.. each time they would add another £100 or so to the fine and there would be more red ink and capital letters. Then I got a letter from their 'solicitors', who happened to have exactly the same address as the parking company and also seemed to have a surplus of red ink.
Then they gave up.
I particularly liked the way they said it'd affect my credit rating.. like how, exactly?
Nothing so fun since. Mind you I avoid 'managed' car parks like the plague. Won't go to superchargers near hotels for that reason.
Then they gave up.
I particularly liked the way they said it'd affect my credit rating.. like how, exactly?
Nothing so fun since. Mind you I avoid 'managed' car parks like the plague. Won't go to superchargers near hotels for that reason.
Well that one’s easy. As a private company to reclaim money off you they would go through a CCJ, which would end up damaging your score eventually.
EVer Hopeful
Active Member
Here in Dallas, there's an (admittedly fairly sensible) rule that you have to park facing the direction of traffic on that side of the road. The wife got one for parking outside our house in the "wrong direction"
Unfortunately she just caved and paid it, whereas I wanted to take it to court and ask for the rule I had broken to be read out. It says something like "must park in the direction of the road" I would then have shown a picture of my street and asked which direction it was running in ... because of course it's a two way street, so it runs in both directions and the ordinance doesn't specify direction of travel of the side on which the vehicle is parked, so is in effect unenforceable
I'm not sure whether or not I would have won, but it was certainly a valid argument to pursue
The other one was the red light camera that she ran and they have a web site where you can see yourself doing it ... except the light was orange. I don't mean the amber was on, I mean the camera filming her was so bad that the red light looked orange, so in effect their primary evidence disproved their claim
Unfortunately she just caved and paid it, whereas I wanted to take it to court and ask for the rule I had broken to be read out. It says something like "must park in the direction of the road" I would then have shown a picture of my street and asked which direction it was running in ... because of course it's a two way street, so it runs in both directions and the ordinance doesn't specify direction of travel of the side on which the vehicle is parked, so is in effect unenforceable
I'm not sure whether or not I would have won, but it was certainly a valid argument to pursue
The other one was the red light camera that she ran and they have a web site where you can see yourself doing it ... except the light was orange. I don't mean the amber was on, I mean the camera filming her was so bad that the red light looked orange, so in effect their primary evidence disproved their claim
Actually you'd probably lose the red light one - remember traffic lights aren't a single light that changes colour but three seperate lights - you can also tell what you are meant to be doing by which of the three lights are illuminated.
Had a reply at last from Bridgend County Borough Council:
I am pleased to inform you that the Penalty Charge Notice detailed above has been cancelled following a review.
only took five weeks, but worth the hassle of appealing, rather than just paying up.
I am pleased to inform you that the Penalty Charge Notice detailed above has been cancelled following a review.
only took five weeks, but worth the hassle of appealing, rather than just paying up.
I've been caught by another deliberate ploy by a council (Torbay) to catch motorists. For years I have had an annual permit for local car parks, in the form of a self-adhesive label to stick on the inside of the windscreen. It clearly showed the expiry date and I also received a postal reminder each year near the renewal date. Now it is a new electronic system and there's no permit to display - making it even more important for them to issue a reminder.
I had a ticket a couple of weeks ago because my invisible permit had expired a few days earlier, unknown to me - and when I disputed it because I did not receive a reminder they stated that they don't issue reminders now, not even an automated email reminder (which would cost them nothing). They also stated bluntly that it was my responsibility to note the date for the following year and check regularly to make sure the permit was renewed in time.
There's no point in arguing when it's obvious that it has been set up deliberately as a trap to bring in a fair bit of extra extra 'revenue', Not exactly a motorist-friendly council in the English Riviera.
I had a ticket a couple of weeks ago because my invisible permit had expired a few days earlier, unknown to me - and when I disputed it because I did not receive a reminder they stated that they don't issue reminders now, not even an automated email reminder (which would cost them nothing). They also stated bluntly that it was my responsibility to note the date for the following year and check regularly to make sure the permit was renewed in time.
There's no point in arguing when it's obvious that it has been set up deliberately as a trap to bring in a fair bit of extra extra 'revenue', Not exactly a motorist-friendly council in the English Riviera.
M1tch
2021 M3P with EAP
Ahhhh, Torbay!! I also had a ticket from them in a car park with almost invisible lines. Utterly baffled when we got it but a quick read said it was due to not being in a marked bay. Took a good few pics and appealed.
It got to some independent ombudsman level and I got to see their pictures - cleverly taken a few inches above the tarmac which revealed the faintest of lines. I shared my pics of the height of a humans head which made them near impossible to see.
I won.
It got to some independent ombudsman level and I got to see their pictures - cleverly taken a few inches above the tarmac which revealed the faintest of lines. I shared my pics of the height of a humans head which made them near impossible to see.
I won.
M1tch
2021 M3P with EAP
Of course they are. It’s the rich making money off the poor though lies, scams, deceit and lack of a moral compass within their organisations. It’s disgraceful, getting worse and will never get better. Ever.
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