That old chestnut won't work for Tesla mate. Name one European manufacturer with a decent alternative to a Model S and indeed the latter part of your sentence proves my point. Talking of creative flair, Tesla has bucket loads, but we are comparing it to long established players. Not saying it's unreasonable to expect more finesse but those on this side of the pond are trailing way behind in all this so lets keep it down to earth.
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Pencil down vs hire from Volvo
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That old chestnut won't work for Tesla mate. Name one European manufacturer with a decent alternative to a Model S and indeed the latter part of your sentence proves my point. Talking of creative flair, Tesla has bucket loads, but we are comparing it to long established players. Not saying it's unreasonable to expect more finesse but those on this side of the pond are trailing way behind in all this so lets keep it down to earth.
acarlos1000
Member
I would say that the stream down of the 7 series features takes more like 3 years to show up on the 5 series, and the majority of the interior features don't get to the 3 series. The same I would say applies to the C / E and S Class. A a lot of the fancy interior stuff on the S Class never gets to the C Class.
I am focusing here just on interior features, attention to detail, rear seat capabilities. It is unjustifiable for Tesla to not improve the interior of the Model S and X in the coming years, they can't rest on their laurels and just don't give a damn about improving the interior on a $100K plus car. Of course, There needs to be a prioritization, the interior on the Model S and X is clearly a MVP (Minimal Viable Product) and they focused the vast majority of their resources on the differentiators: electric drive train, battery, Autopilot, and the Center Touch screen. But eventually, they invest some dollars to go back and Refresh the interior, it is not the most capital intensive part of making a Tesla for sure.
BTW, fun story, last year I went to a Mercedes dealership and I was interested in the B Class for my wife (the B Class in the US is only offered in the Electric version and only in a few states). It was super funny to hear from the Mercedes sales person about the "Tesla Drive Train". He talked more about that, than anything else
I think the Porsche guy was picked up early enough to influence some of the 3's design before the pencils down date. The Volvo guy will likely be working on future vehicle design. Is there any more information on one of Audi's quality control experts they hired?
alseTrick
Active Member
The Porsche guy was the lead designer on the cars interior, liked I said.
He would have say on the design of Tesla vehicles. The Volvo guy is responsible for getting it built right.
alseTrick
Active Member
You realize that says engineering, NOT design, right?
Maybe he'll have some say on ergonomics and general spacing of interior components, but he's not the designer.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
That statement was crafted very well to 'sound good' and succeeds in that arena. It is still a woefully incorrect assessment though. There is a lot more to be said and examined beyond the 'period'. Let me tell you why...
The real 'unicorns' are the ICE vehicles people choose to buy instead of a Model S. They have been fading away in sales over the course of 4-1/2 years. They are going extinct. Good riddance.
Part of the reason why ANALysts, pundits, and talking heads were so confident in claiming the Model S would NEVER manage to reach 15,000 units in annual sales, was that they knew the price segment had been drying out since the financial crisis in 2008. There had been a long, slow recovery process, and high end cars had never fully recovered at all. So the notion that a newcomer would be able to greatly exceed the sales of long established players in that economic environment seemed like a pipe dream to them at best.
For decades we have been told that BMW only builds one thing -- The ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE. Except, they don't. Not really. Not anymore. Until about 2012, automotive journalists would routinely award the 3-Series with top-level accolades as the 'benchmark' for an entire class of vehicles, which they felt it defined. They went on to give the rest of BMW's products the same level of respect, pretty much by default.
But then, they were surprised to learn, time and again, that as they tested the 3-Series against its direct competitors, they were finding it harder and harder to come up with some excuse to make the BMW win. That surprised them even further, because for quite some time, maybe a couple of decades at least, even when a BMW lost in purely logical testing results through instrumented testing on a track? They could at least fall back on the tried and true familiar 'feel' of its handling that just seemed to be more 'fun' than anything else on hand. The BMW would win as an Editorial decision, despite the numbers.
Then they found themselves saying something they hadn't expect to ever say about a BMW, though it had become an oft-repeated and near trite observation over other brands, "It's a better car, but a worse BMW." Somehow, in all the refinements toward improving the cars that led to ever-increasing sales, and much more satisfied Customers, BMW had bred out the 'fun factor' while their competitors had latched onto it and improved upon it in the process. Oops.
Over the years both Car and Driver, as well as Motor Trend, have subscribed to the notion that, "You just can't beat a BMW." But now they know that isn't true. Competitors from Cadillac, Jaguar, and even Alfa Romeo now, have been able to beat the 3-Series, and its performance variant, the M3. That was unexpected. Though it was a long time coming.
Even if one accepts that theorem as true, you must understand that 50% of Tesla's sales thus far would still put them at no less than second place in sales in the segment over the last 4-1/2 years. And that number of sales would still be considered an immense success. Because it would still be 500% of what Tesla Naysayers claimed would be possible for the fledgling company. And, it would still put them over Elon Musk's initial 15,000 unit per annum worldwide projection by well over 3,000 units on average.
Instead of selling 11 years worth of cars in 4-1/2 years, they would have sold 5-1/2 years worth. So, instead of being a ~30-somethingeth billion buckadollar company on Wall $treet, Tesla might 'only' be rated as being 'worth' 15 billion. Trust that wouldn't make Jim Cramer or Cory Johnson any happier.
I concur.
Granted.
Prolly so, but the BMW 7-Series only has a greater range than the 3-Series because it has a larger fuel tank. The smaller 3-Series with a 20.6 gallon fuel tank and it would leave its sibling many miles behind. I am certain that for a given battery pack capacity, the Model ☰ will have a greater range than Model S. So, where a rear wheel drive Model S 60 had an EPA rated range of 208 miles...? A Model ☰ 60 would likely manage 225-to-250 miles instead.
Granted.
Uhmmm... NO. The strategy of attempting to 'protect' the Performance rating of a flagship vehicle is a poor one. For decades Lexus has protected its LS from lower level siblings. Result? Both the IS and ES get their butts handed to them with both hands by the 3-Series in annual sales, year-in and year-out. Even this past year, when the 3-Series (70,458 units) was off by 25.5% compared to 2015, it still demolished sales of ES (58,299 units, -10.3%) and IS (37,289 units, -19.7%). There is finally the F-Sport versions of the IS, but it may be far too little, way too late.
BMW gets to butter their bread on both sides because of 3-Series sales. The 12,918 sales of 7-Series are insignificant compared to that. And the BMW M3 has always blown the doors off the 7-Series and the 5-Series. That is as it should be.
Tesla will not gimp the Model ☰ Performance edition to 'save' Model S sales at all. There's no need.
Yet, I can't find anyone who shares the same feeling about BMW or Mercedes-Benz. Is there any reason, really, to get the 7-Series Alpina with the 3-Series 'M' edition available for half as much? Is there any reason, really, to get the AMG S-Class when you can get the AMG C-Class for half as much? Of course there are reasons. People purchase different vehicles for different reasons. Generally speaking, they get what they need, what they can afford, and what they WANT. BMW/M and Mercedes-Benz/AMG have sorted out long ago that fewer people will want their larger performance cars than the smaller ones. It's not a big deal at all. I'm sure that since Elon has been aiming for 500,000 units of Tesla Generation III vehicles per annum since the first half of 2013 at least, he too has accepted that notion. We can file this under 'DUH' for future reference.
Once again, even if Model S sales fall to half their current level, that will be far more than anyone outside of Tesla thought was possible. They will still hold a solid second place perennially and will often enough find themselves in first place. With a car that had an eight year product cycle and sold through 11 years worth of cars in only 4-1/2. So every one they sell from now on is pure gravy.
Do you have any idea how few premium brands manage to sell even 15,000 vehicles total in the United States each year? Let alone 50,000 of one model worldwide? This goes back to what I noted before about ICE vehicles in the segment being the true 'unicorns'. They are not long for this world, and soon to disappear. The likelihood of seeing one 'in the wild' will diminish greatly in the next decade. Because rather than switching to full electric, some will choose to become even more 'exclusive' and sell fewer vehicles at higher prices. At least, they will, until completely barred from operating on these shores.
Tesla only intended to sell 15,000 of the Model S per year, and 20,000 per year on the outside. They never had any expectation of reaching or maintaining 50,000 units per year when they designed the car. Some automobile manufacturers, like Rolls-Royce or Bentley, haven't sold that many cars in the past ten years combined, worldwide. But no one claims they have a 'limited market' that cannot bear up to competition, as they have said for years now about Tesla. That makes no sense whatsoever.
The Model S has paid for itself many times over in the sales it has already racked up. If their sales drop to 50% of current levels, that would be 25,000 units worldwide per year. That's 10,000 more per year than their initial expectation. If 60% of those go to U.S. Customers, that is 15,000 units, and enough to hold second place in Class for the duration. All the Model S does now is make money for Tesla. That is a good thing.
You are not the first to suggest this. You are not the first to be completely wrong either.
Each sentence reads as if the Model S is some kind of 'problem' or 'burden' for Tesla to bear. Trust that Acura, AUDI, BMW, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, Maserati, Mercedes-Benz, and Porsche would all be happy as [HECK] if the Model S went away some day. Some of them would probably be happy if Tesla allowed them to build a car of their own around the platform -- now. They would have turned up their nose at the notion five years ago.
The Model S has completely proven its viability through the course of something like 160,000+ units sold in 4-1/2 years. A time frame that had been projected to have covered perhaps as little as 67,500 cars instead, at best. A time period wherein some manufacturers would have been very happy indeed to have moved even 50,000 units of their flagship vehicles in total. And in the face of those numbers, you think Tesla should LOWER the price of their reigning champion flagship? Uhm... NO. That makes no sense at all.
Waitasec... Lincoln? Cadillac? God. Please note that the Tesla Model S outsold EVERY PASSENGER CAR OFFERED BY CADILLAC during 2016. Not some. Not half. ALL OF THEM. Similarly, Model S outsold the two top models from Lincoln: Continental and MKS... COMBINED... by at least a two-to-one ratio. And every one of those cars costs less than a base Model S.
Cadillac has 900+ of their 'independent franchised dealerships' in the U.S. Tesla only very recently opened their 100th U.S. location -- in Michigan. Heck, there are 61 Lincoln and 53 Cadillac locations in Michigan alone. Another 81 Cadillac locations in Texas, where there are also 84 Lincoln locations. There are still 23 States where Tesla has no sales presence at all. But for all that brick and mortar, and acres and acres of cars, and the support of that gigantic distribution network of 'independent franchised dealerships' -- a car from a tech company in California with an average sale price somewhere between $90,000 and $105,000 has outsold everything Cadillac and Lincoln have to offer, except for the MKZ.
I am not into 'luxury' at all. I spent a Summer (31+ years ago -- woof!) working for my Uncle Will Joe in Beverly Hills, where I was detailing cars for the residents at a condominium complex. There were a lot of expensive cars there. Some classics. Some new. Some ridiculously old. But really, the only actually luxurious cars were the Rolls-Royce and Bentley cars. Everything else paled in comparison. It became apparent that really, everyone else was just doing their own riff, providing a different take, on Rolls-Royce interior design and fitments, using much lower quality materials. Everything in the Rolls-Royce was made from REAL STUFF. Actual metal switchgear, not shiny coated black plastic. Actual lambs wool headliners, not acrylic fuzzy stuff. Actual hardwood, not a press-formed injected plastic molding. What impressed me was the dedication to the craftwork and choices of materials, not so much the design itself.
Tesla's designers have been adamant that they are NOT changing the interior design language of their cars. I don't blame them one bit. Their cars should look to the future with design, not wallow in the past concepts of Victorian Era stagecoach design. Tesla doesn't have to become another in a long line of copycats to Rolls-Royce or Bentley. The high end Mercedes-Benz products are a real embarrassment in that they blatantly copy Bentley interiors -- right down to the diamond pattern quilted seating.
No one is 'blinded' at all. Those who are 'car guys' have been saying much the same -- about Cadillac -- for most of the past thirty years. Their current styling themes and emphasis on performance were seen as an attempt to lure new buyers. I'm not sure if it has worked or not. But it sure has given them some very nice cars for their lineup. Unfortunately for Cadillac, just as they are offering the very best cars they have ever put on the market, Tesla has come along. DOH! I expect the Model ☰ is going to absolutely decimate Cadillac sales.
OK. If you say so. Welcome.
Well, yeah... Typically, about the only thing that is 'the size of a Buick' is a Buick. My Grandfather had an Electra 225 that was unfortunately destroyed in a crash. That was one of very few cars I have been in that had more than enough legroom for me. Unfortunately, the Buick Century I had once upon a time was nowhere near as good a car and died within a month of my taking ownership.
Ah. So you believe the Model S is a perfect $50,000 car...? Heh. That's really funny.
I think maybe you actually wanted something like this instead:
Not only am I a 'car guy'... I am a GM guy. Growing up it seemed that 'Body by Fisher' was a Family Motto. The first car I ever drove was my Uncle George's Chevrolet El Camino SS -- when I was twelve.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Interesting choice.
Volvo offers five passenger cars. The S60 is their biggest seller, and was under 15,000 units in 2016, 13.0% lower than 2015. And it was only one of three that sold over 5,000 units. Total U.S. sales for Volvo were 29,746 units among passenger cars in 2016. HybridCars estimates that the Model S alone sold 29,156 units in the U.S. during 2016.
Still... I do remember one of the biggest surprises I ever got at the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show, a couple of decades ago, at least. I noticed by Buddy, Yaboo, was over at the Volvo booth. He was sitting in what was, at the time, a new offering called the C70. I asked what he was doing, as he seemed rather engrossed as I approached. He said the ergonomics were perfect, and invited me to take the driver's seat. He was right. Everything fell perfectly to the touch, all items were exactly where they should be, and the seating position left nothing to be desired. It was as if the car had been built around me.
I expect that Tesla has chosen this guy, not to 'upgrade the quality' of interiors, as so many have stated... So much as to upgrade the experience of operating the vehicle. It will be interesting to see what happens as a result.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
The difference is that the Model ☰ will likely have a Midsize classification from the EPA, where the 3-Series is a Compact. So Tesla won't have to offer a 'tweener' car like the 5-Series or E-Class. People will buy what they like, what they need, what they can afford. The Acura RLX ($54,450) has about a 142% premium over the Honda Accord ($22,455). The Lexus ES ($38,900) has practically a 69% premium over the Toyota Camry ($23,070), but only a 4% premium over the Toyota Avalon XLE ($37,250). Things cost money and stuff.
Production perhaps, ergonomics most certainly, aesthetics -- not at all. Tesla's designers have been adamant that the design language of their cars is NOT going to change. If you dund like it, there's always guys like TSportline, West Coast Customs, or your friendly neighborhood automotive upholstery shop. If you want a Buick LaCrosse style interior, convince Buick to make a fully electric ELECTRA with a 225 kWh battery pack!
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Great analysis of the current automotive market ... and I am an long-time car guy
That statement was crafted very well to 'sound good' and succeeds in that arena. It is still a woefully incorrect assessment though. There is a lot more to be said and examined beyond the 'period'. Let me tell you why...
The real 'unicorns' are the ICE vehicles people choose to buy instead of a Model S. They have been fading away in sales over the course of 4-1/2 years. They are going extinct. Good riddance.
Part of the reason why ANALysts, pundits, and talking heads were so confident in claiming the Model S would NEVER manage to reach 15,000 units in annual sales, was that they knew the price segment had been drying out since the financial crisis in 2008. There had been a long, slow recovery process, and high end cars had never fully recovered at all. So the notion that a newcomer would be able to greatly exceed the sales of long established players in that economic environment seemed like a pipe dream to them at best.
For decades we have been told that BMW only builds one thing -- The ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE. Except, they don't. Not really. Not anymore. Until about 2012, automotive journalists would routinely award the 3-Series with top-level accolades as the 'benchmark' for an entire class of vehicles, which they felt it defined. They went on to give the rest of BMW's products the same level of respect, pretty much by default.
But then, they were surprised to learn, time and again, that as they tested the 3-Series against its direct competitors, they were finding it harder and harder to come up with some excuse to make the BMW win. That surprised them even further, because for quite some time, maybe a couple of decades at least, even when a BMW lost in purely logical testing results through instrumented testing on a track? They could at least fall back on the tried and true familiar 'feel' of its handling that just seemed to be more 'fun' than anything else on hand. The BMW would win as an Editorial decision, despite the numbers.
Then they found themselves saying something they hadn't expect to ever say about a BMW, though it had become an oft-repeated and near trite observation over other brands, "It's a better car, but a worse BMW." Somehow, in all the refinements toward improving the cars that led to ever-increasing sales, and much more satisfied Customers, BMW had bred out the 'fun factor' while their competitors had latched onto it and improved upon it in the process. Oops.
Over the years both Car and Driver, as well as Motor Trend, have subscribed to the notion that, "You just can't beat a BMW." But now they know that isn't true. Competitors from Cadillac, Jaguar, and even Alfa Romeo now, have been able to beat the 3-Series, and its performance variant, the M3. That was unexpected. Though it was a long time coming.
Even if one accepts that theorem as true, you must understand that 50% of Tesla's sales thus far would still put them at no less than second place in sales in the segment over the last 4-1/2 years. And that number of sales would still be considered an immense success. Because it would still be 500% of what Tesla Naysayers claimed would be possible for the fledgling company. And, it would still put them over Elon Musk's initial 15,000 unit per annum worldwide projection by well over 3,000 units on average.
Instead of selling 11 years worth of cars in 4-1/2 years, they would have sold 5-1/2 years worth. So, instead of being a ~30-somethingeth billion buckadollar company on Wall $treet, Tesla might 'only' be rated as being 'worth' 15 billion. Trust that wouldn't make Jim Cramer or Cory Johnson any happier.
I concur.
Granted.
Prolly so, but the BMW 7-Series only has a greater range than the 3-Series because it has a larger fuel tank. The smaller 3-Series with a 20.6 gallon fuel tank and it would leave its sibling many miles behind. I am certain that for a given battery pack capacity, the Model ☰ will have a greater range than Model S. So, where a rear wheel drive Model S 60 had an EPA rated range of 208 miles...? A Model ☰ 60 would likely manage 225-to-250 miles instead.
Granted.
Uhmmm... NO. The strategy of attempting to 'protect' the Performance rating of a flagship vehicle is a poor one. For decades Lexus has protected its LS from lower level siblings. Result? Both the IS and ES get their butts handed to them with both hands by the 3-Series in annual sales, year-in and year-out. Even this past year, when the 3-Series (70,458 units) was off by 25.5% compared to 2015, it still demolished sales of ES (58,299 units, -10.3%) and IS (37,289 units, -19.7%). There is finally the F-Sport versions of the IS, but it may be far too little, way too late.
BMW gets to butter their bread on both sides because of 3-Series sales. The 12,918 sales of 7-Series are insignificant compared to that. And the BMW M3 has always blown the doors off the 7-Series and the 5-Series. That is as it should be.
Tesla will not gimp the Model ☰ Performance edition to 'save' Model S sales at all. There's no need.
Yet, I can't find anyone who shares the same feeling about BMW or Mercedes-Benz. Is there any reason, really, to get the 7-Series Alpina with the 3-Series 'M' edition available for half as much? Is there any reason, really, to get the AMG S-Class when you can get the AMG C-Class for half as much? Of course there are reasons. People purchase different vehicles for different reasons. Generally speaking, they get what they need, what they can afford, and what they WANT. BMW/M and Mercedes-Benz/AMG have sorted out long ago that fewer people will want their larger performance cars than the smaller ones. It's not a big deal at all. I'm sure that since Elon has been aiming for 500,000 units of Tesla Generation III vehicles per annum since the first half of 2013 at least, he too has accepted that notion. We can file this under 'DUH' for future reference.
Once again, even if Model S sales fall to half their current level, that will be far more than anyone outside of Tesla thought was possible. They will still hold a solid second place perennially and will often enough find themselves in first place. With a car that had an eight year product cycle and sold through 11 years worth of cars in only 4-1/2. So every one they sell from now on is pure gravy.
Do you have any idea how few premium brands manage to sell even 15,000 vehicles total in the United States each year? Let alone 50,000 of one model worldwide? This goes back to what I noted before about ICE vehicles in the segment being the true 'unicorns'. They are not long for this world, and soon to disappear. The likelihood of seeing one 'in the wild' will diminish greatly in the next decade. Because rather than switching to full electric, some will choose to become even more 'exclusive' and sell fewer vehicles at higher prices. At least, they will, until completely barred from operating on these shores.
Tesla only intended to sell 15,000 of the Model S per year, and 20,000 per year on the outside. They never had any expectation of reaching or maintaining 50,000 units per year when they designed the car. Some automobile manufacturers, like Rolls-Royce or Bentley, haven't sold that many cars in the past ten years combined, worldwide. But no one claims they have a 'limited market' that cannot bear up to competition, as they have said for years now about Tesla. That makes no sense whatsoever.
The Model S has paid for itself many times over in the sales it has already racked up. If their sales drop to 50% of current levels, that would be 25,000 units worldwide per year. That's 10,000 more per year than their initial expectation. If 60% of those go to U.S. Customers, that is 15,000 units, and enough to hold second place in Class for the duration. All the Model S does now is make money for Tesla. That is a good thing.
You are not the first to suggest this. You are not the first to be completely wrong either.
Each sentence reads as if the Model S is some kind of 'problem' or 'burden' for Tesla to bear. Trust that Acura, AUDI, BMW, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, Maserati, Mercedes-Benz, and Porsche would all be happy as [HECK] if the Model S went away some day. Some of them would probably be happy if Tesla allowed them to build a car of their own around the platform -- now. They would have turned up their nose at the notion five years ago.
The Model S has completely proven its viability through the course of something like 160,000+ units sold in 4-1/2 years. A time frame that had been projected to have covered perhaps as little as 67,500 cars instead, at best. A time period wherein some manufacturers would have been very happy indeed to have moved even 50,000 units of their flagship vehicles in total. And in the face of those numbers, you think Tesla should LOWER the price of their reigning champion flagship? Uhm... NO. That makes no sense at all.
Waitasec... Lincoln? Cadillac? God. Please note that the Tesla Model S outsold EVERY PASSENGER CAR OFFERED BY CADILLAC during 2016. Not some. Not half. ALL OF THEM. Similarly, Model S outsold the two top models from Lincoln: Continental and MKS... COMBINED... by at least a two-to-one ratio. And every one of those cars costs less than a base Model S.
Cadillac has 900+ of their 'independent franchised dealerships' in the U.S. Tesla only very recently opened their 100th U.S. location -- in Michigan. Heck, there are 61 Lincoln and 53 Cadillac locations in Michigan alone. Another 81 Cadillac locations in Texas, where there are also 84 Lincoln locations. There are still 23 States where Tesla has no sales presence at all. But for all that brick and mortar, and acres and acres of cars, and the support of that gigantic distribution network of 'independent franchised dealerships' -- a car from a tech company in California with an average sale price somewhere between $90,000 and $105,000 has outsold everything Cadillac and Lincoln have to offer, except for the MKZ.
I am not into 'luxury' at all. I spent a Summer (31+ years ago -- woof!) working for my Uncle Will Joe in Beverly Hills, where I was detailing cars for the residents at a condominium complex. There were a lot of expensive cars there. Some classics. Some new. Some ridiculously old. But really, the only actually luxurious cars were the Rolls-Royce and Bentley cars. Everything else paled in comparison. It became apparent that really, everyone else was just doing their own riff, providing a different take, on Rolls-Royce interior design and fitments, using much lower quality materials. Everything in the Rolls-Royce was made from REAL STUFF. Actual metal switchgear, not shiny coated black plastic. Actual lambs wool headliners, not acrylic fuzzy stuff. Actual hardwood, not a press-formed injected plastic molding. What impressed me was the dedication to the craftwork and choices of materials, not so much the design itself.
Tesla's designers have been adamant that they are NOT changing the interior design language of their cars. I don't blame them one bit. Their cars should look to the future with design, not wallow in the past concepts of Victorian Era stagecoach design. Tesla doesn't have to become another in a long line of copycats to Rolls-Royce or Bentley. The high end Mercedes-Benz products are a real embarrassment in that they blatantly copy Bentley interiors -- right down to the diamond pattern quilted seating.
No one is 'blinded' at all. Those who are 'car guys' have been saying much the same -- about Cadillac -- for most of the past thirty years. Their current styling themes and emphasis on performance were seen as an attempt to lure new buyers. I'm not sure if it has worked or not. But it sure has given them some very nice cars for their lineup. Unfortunately for Cadillac, just as they are offering the very best cars they have ever put on the market, Tesla has come along. DOH! I expect the Model ☰ is going to absolutely decimate Cadillac sales.
OK. If you say so. Welcome.
Well, yeah... Typically, about the only thing that is 'the size of a Buick' is a Buick. My Grandfather had an Electra 225 that was unfortunately destroyed in a crash. That was one of very few cars I have been in that had more than enough legroom for me. Unfortunately, the Buick Century I had once upon a time was nowhere near as good a car and died within a month of my taking ownership.
Ah. So you believe the Model S is a perfect $50,000 car...? Heh. That's really funny.
I think maybe you actually wanted something like this instead:
Not only am I a 'car guy'... I am a GM guy. Growing up it seemed that 'Body by Fisher' was a Family Motto. The first car I ever drove was my Uncle George's Chevrolet El Camino SS -- when I was twelve.
But once you get into first, you don't want to give it up, unless you can compete in a different, larger category.
The size of the battery pack is a much larger percentage of the size of the car than a gas tank is for an ICE. It's a relatively minor exercise to increase a gas tank from 15 gallons to 20 gallons. You might lose a bit of trunk space, but it isn't a huge deal. The battery pack on the Model S is 96 gallons in volume. The M3 is going to have somewhat less space. The new cell type will allow Tesla to pack the batteries in a little tighter, but increasing the space the pack takes up to 96 gallons would probably compromise the space in the car a fair bit. I expect the space set aside for the Model 3's battery is about 70 gallons in volume.
My point was the Model 3 PxxD probably is incapable of better performance than the Model S PxxxD. Performance is a matter of a number of factors: size of the motors, weight of the car, voltage of the battery pack, and how much instantaneous current can be pumped out of the battery pack.
The Model 3 has a weight advantage, but the Model S has the advantages everywhere else. The larger pack on the Model 3 might be 400V, but it probably won't be and it almost certainly is not going to capable of the same current levels.
I could be, but we'll see what happens.
Total Cadillac sales last year were 170K for the US and another 12K in Canada. The total US sales for the Escalade and XT5 totaled 63K in the US.
Cadillac Sales Numbers
Cadillac sedans outsell both Model S and X sales combined. Cadillac's NA sales alone were more than 2X Tesla's worldwide sales.
There are exceptions, but products with a lower price point tend to sell better than ones with a higher price point. A Model S price competitive with Cadillac and Lincoln would sell more cars than being price competitive with the BMW 7 Series.
Tesla definitely doesn't need to hark back to a bygone era. The center screen means a lot of the knobs and buttons necessary in other cars don't need to there. However while storage has been improved with the refresh and the X, it's still poor compared to other contemporary cars. That does need to improve.
I expect the Model 3 is going to decimate Camry and Accord sales.
My Roadmaster shared the same chassis with the Fleetwood Brougham and the Chevy Caprice. It was amazingly reliable. My mechanic wanted to buy the car, but he unfortunately died in 2015.
The Model S has the same width and same wheelbase as the Roadmaster did. Though the Model S has much more cargo space.
My family bought only GM until about 10 years ago too. My sister and father switched to Ford.
Because the EPA classification is based on the interior volume, I expect the Model 3 will be classified as a large car, though it might come out midsized.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
No. They don't. Every single Cadillac Sedan was outsold by the Tesla Model S during 2016 in the U.S.
21,505 _ Cadillac ATS
_9,169 _ Cadillac CT6
15,911 _ Cadillac CTS
___534 _ Cadillac ELR
22,171 _ Cadillac XTS
29,156 _ Tesla Model S
_9,169 _ Cadillac CT6
15,911 _ Cadillac CTS
___534 _ Cadillac ELR
22,171 _ Cadillac XTS
29,156 _ Tesla Model S
Sure. Once you include SUVs and/or trucks. I specifically noted 'passenger cars'.
Also, you are listing total sales as a corporation, while I was speaking of individual sales of particular models within a make. Not that it matters, because Tesla will likely outsell Cadillac as a whole in the U.S. in 2018, as well as worldwide. Period.
Seriously? The Cadillac ATS has a starting price of $34,595 and can't compete with the Model S in sales -- even with a 24 State and 800+ location advantage. And, once again, the Model ☰ will be 'price competitive' with Cadillac ATS and Lincoln MKZ -- and it will demolish them both in sales. There is no need to lower the price of the Model S. It was never meant to be a mass market seller. Geez.
acarlos1000
Member
Does anyone really believe that Tesla should not improve their interior on the MS? I am not saying they will do it, because there is no competition to Tesla on this segment. But do you really expect this level of interior (not talking about the screens) at this price tag?
I totally would expect Tesla to have a better fit and finish and attention to detail then they have at the price tag of the MS, will they do it? probably not, because there is no competition (if you want electric with a descent range and performance).
I totally would expect Tesla to have a better fit and finish and attention to detail then they have at the price tag of the MS, will they do it? probably not, because there is no competition (if you want electric with a descent range and performance).
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Tesla has been constantly improving the 'fit and finish and attention to detail' within their cars. I have no issue with that. But I do not want their cars to become a rehash of the eternally replicated themes of Rolls-Royce vehicles I've seen over the years. The future of automobiles should not be so firmly planted in paying homage to the notion of a 'horseless carriage'.
Here is something I wrote elsewhere on a similar subject:
The Tesla Model S is not 'loud'. It's decibel rating at cruising speeds is about the same as a Lexus LS. Difference being, the sounds that you do hear in the Lexus are those we have all become conditioned to perceive as 'good' sounds. None of those specific sounds are present, so the ones that are there are perceived as 'unpleasant' instead. At least, that seems to be the case with the people who insist the Model S needs even more sound deadening and better attention to 'luxury' accoutrements. But to some, the Model ☰ is bound to seem similarly 'harsh' on the senses. Not so much because of what is happening, as much as because of what is not. Luckily, there are some who understand the true sound of quality:
Built Like a Jet | Tesla Motors
Built Like a Jet | Tesla Motors
People should be aware that there is no actual firm definition of 'luxury'. The entire concept is an illusion, a fiction, a a fantasy, a fallacy. We are conditioned to accept that certain styles and forms and smells and sounds should be considered desirable by those who want to sell them to us. There may be something that you want... But please take the time to analyze WHY it is that you want it. Will it actually make your life better, or is that something someone else wants you to believe?
acarlos1000
Member
I do agree that Tesla is improving on their fit and finish, as they are gradually improving their software, battery technology and on and on.
But there are some things that the auto industry has solved and are reliable on a lot of cars (much cheaper cars) and I still have problems on my MS (more than 3 years after its introduction). Like folding side mirrors that don't unfold, or completely misaligned doors and trunk, or door handles that stop working. I am not talking about Auto steering or, realtime image processing, or falcon wing doors, just basic folding mirrors on a $100k+ car.
But there are some things that the auto industry has solved and are reliable on a lot of cars (much cheaper cars) and I still have problems on my MS (more than 3 years after its introduction). Like folding side mirrors that don't unfold, or completely misaligned doors and trunk, or door handles that stop working. I am not talking about Auto steering or, realtime image processing, or falcon wing doors, just basic folding mirrors on a $100k+ car.
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As I understood your statement, I interpreted what you said as the Model S outsold all Cadillac cars combined, which would be 69,290 from your numbers above. Something is missing from the numbers because when I combine the numbers for the Escalade, XT5, and SRX, I get 85,288. The total was 170,006 so there's 15,488 missing in there somewhere.
But in any case, just taking the sales of ATS, CT6, CTS, ELR, and XTS numbers combined for the US, you get a number in the ballpark of Tesla's total production of the S and X combined for the world. The Model S did outsell each Cadillac car model individually in the US, which is nothing to sneeze at. But Cadillac had 4 sdans, a coupe, and 3 SUVs (one essentially a truck). With an array of vehicles for sale, you start getting into apples and oranges comparisons.
Some more information on Cadillac:
Cadillac Annual Sales Reach Highest Mark in Decades
They sold 308,692 vehicles worldwide.
When the Model 3 hits the market, it's highly likely Tesla's yearly sales figures will bury Cadillac's. In a few year's time Tesla could move up to the #3 US based auto maker. Beating all the nameplates of Fiat-Chrysler combined, but Tesla is still a relatively small company in the car business. They're bigger than any start up has achieved in a very long time, but they are still small.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Things do evolve over time.
From spartan to overstuffed... But where did the overstuffing come from, anyway...?
From spartan to overstuffed... But where did the overstuffing come from, anyway...?
Yup. Leather seats is the one that gets me the most. Here in Portland on the radio for several years there was a leather furniture store that had ads on the radio and the current owner is the daughter of the founder. She said her father always said leather was the poor mans' fabric in furniture because it was easy to clean and tended to stand up better than fabric, but people's opinions about leather have changed.
Back when the choice in cars was between leather and vinyl, I can see why leather was seen as the more luxurious. But we have so many materials now that would be vastly better for car seats than leather.
An in a car interior, I want something that works. As far as controls, the Tesla S/X layout is generally pretty good. There are a few things that require some fumbling around, We went to a Christmas light thing a few weeks back and they ask people to turn off their headlights. I had to remember where you went on the touchscreen to turn them off. But that's a rare situation.
I am one who think cabin storage could be improved on the Model S. The X has small door pockets but it could probably do with some improvements too. Another thing that has become a standard option in SUVs is the backseat entertainment system for the kids. I don't have any kids and I leave the back seats folded down all the time, but I know that's an issue for some car buyers looking at the X.
Another minor beef I have is with the headrests. In most cars they are adjustable and on my SO's Subaru, we removed them in the backseat (people only ride back there occasionally). It would be nice if they were adjustable and I would remove them from the backseats if they could be removed.
I liked the front backseat pockets on my Buick. One thing I carried in them was some maps, but I don't need that anymore. I'd still like to have the pockets though.
Another issue people have is no hangers in the back and also no hand holds on the roof near the doors. Most cars have those these days and I reach for them when the driver takes a turn too fast. It also helps people with mobility problems get out of the car. We have a friend who has a lot of trouble getting out of cars due to an old ankle injury combined with fibermalagia and arthritis. When she came to visit I cranked the suspension up to max whenever she had to get out of the car, but she did struggle some and was pawing for the handhold.
I think the "luxury" in most expensive cars is ridiculous and useless. The Model S interior is not bad IMO, but it could use some design attention. I don't want it to be more luxurious, I want it to be more practical. People carry stuff in their cars they use like sunglasses, spare change, media for whatever media player you have (USB in the S and X), Kleenex, possibly wet wipes, things for kids, etc. If there is no place to store those things, they end up floating around the car and making it messy.
Before I got my Buick, I had a 1981 Impala which had no storage anywhere but the glovebox. The car was a constant rat's nest of stuff. The Buick was always nice and tidy because the stuff that needed to stay in the car had a cubbyhole and it was easier to police the bits of stuff that needed to go. So far I've kept the Tesla fairly neat, but there is a box of Kleenex floating around in the wayback. It was once reachable from the driver's seat, but it flew back into the recesses of the back when I had to accelerate to avoid someone hitting me.
I did have a service loaner that was a pre-console and that was terrible. The few things I had in the car with my slid back and forth in that open space constantly. So Tesla has improved, but it could improve the interior layout and storage more. If it happens to be more luxurious, I'll put up with it, but I won't seek it out.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
I am very careful to be quite specific when I use the word 'COMBINED'. For instance, the Model S outsold Panamera, A8 L, and 7-Series -- COMBINED -- during 2016. I didn't use that relative to Cadillac's cars, though I may have regarding two of three vehicles from Lincoln.
I noticed you kept using the term 'NA' before... I presume that stands for 'North America'. Please note that includes the U.S., Canada, and Mexico. Plus, different sources report different data. I was using U.S. Sales alone. I am rather confident that except for companies like Volkswagen, who are enormously popular outside the U.S. for some reason (or were, prior to DieselGate), that U.S. sales are indicative of worldwide popularity for a brand.
Yup.
But that, as they say, is another subject. My point was that without traditional 'luxury' accoutrement, the Tesla Model S has outsold a wide variety of individual vehicles. Many of them vehicles with 'luxury' at the forefront of their stated mission. Several of them with an advantage in distribution network and advertising revenue and companies with deeper pockets and decades more experience and... yet, even cars that have a starting price under $40,000 are outsold by one with an average sale price somewhere between $90,000 and $105,000 per various sources. Cars that others have repeatedly claimed Tesla should mimic in order to 'survive' or 'continue selling Model S' after the release of Model ☰. I find that argument to be entirely incorrect.
It's sort of like the Coke vs Pepsi argument. I don't care how big PepsiCo gets... I still want to eat my Pizza Hut Meatlover's Large Deep Pan while drinking a Coke, or Cherry Coke. And I'd prefer the pizza were brought to the table piping hot in the pan used to cook it instead of stuffed in a cardboard box like Domino's. I likes what I likes and stuff.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
I think most people miss having approximately 3.5 cup holders per passenger in a Model X.
I think the door pockets have already been improved for Model X and will be even more useful for Model ☰. But no, they won't be any easier to clean (or keep clean) by any means.
The rear seat entertainment thing is something I actually applaud Tesla for not having, as it is a complete waste. I believe the designers properly realized that as the children age, they will be using their own handheld devices. I know of children under the age of two that are using tablets already. Once equipped with BlueTooth earbuds, those back of the seat screens will be proven to be an absolute waste of automotive real estate and parental unit funding. The technology built into the car would be surpassed by whatever tablet, watch, phone, or OmniTool the kids are using three years from now anyway.
OK. Please take a look at professional level racing seats. I am not aware of any of them that have removable or adjustable height headrests. All Tesla automotive products will be Performance oriented, and as such, all of them will be built with Safety as a primary concern. So you will get full head, shoulder, and neck support by default. That's just the way it is.
The Buick Roadmaster Estate was one of the best conceived and executed Family people haulers known to mankind. It fell victim to the popularity of SUVs that came with the Ford Explorer. And that was after already suffering a pretty big setback to America's love affair with minivans from Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge. The relatively horrid fuel economy probably didn't help much either. So when the majority of GM's rear wheel drive vehicles took to pasture, the Roadmaster Estate went along with them, never to be seen again.
But I did note multiple times that the design team for Tesla Model X could learn a lot from the Roadmaster Estate. Along with perhaps the Volkswagen Vanagon. Sure, the form factors for the vehicles themselves may not have been en vogue, but the means by which they allowed for neat and easily accessible storage was unique and creative. Sometimes an old dog can teach the new one old tricks.
Ah, the ever-popular, "Oh, $#!+!!!" bars! They are well placed, and quite convenient in some cars. But aesthetically, they always look bad. And in some cars I've noticed, they aren't as well placed as passengers would like. But they'd always rather have them than reach for them and find them mysteriously absent.
I'll be honest though... Until my younger Brother picked up an older Mercedes-Benz S500, I had never seen (or noticed, and examined) a grab bar at the driver's seat in a sedan. Typically, I'd make note of them at every other entry point to the car. He'll turn 46 in a few weeks, so he isn't exactly geriatric... But he is recovering from a recent ankle replacement surgery and will be happy to make use of that grab handle when he gets in and out of the car for a long while.
My goal is to NOT need to lay my hand on anything other than the steering wheel while I'm driving. So, I would want to banish everything that doesn't fit in the glove box to the Frunk. My glasses will be in my jacket pocket or on my face. I switch between clear vision and shades as needed at dawn and dusk. Various other items can go in a bag in the trunk. I'll just stop and take them out as needed. When I'm driving, I just want to drive.
I learned a long time ago that the best way to clean a room was to take everything out of it. Then, don't put anything back unless it belongs there. What's left over is trash. I expect to not need to store much in my Model ☰. I'll keep the car neat and clean simply by not putting anything in it that doesn't belong at all.
Dan Detweiler
Active Member
Damn RedSage...is there an award for the longest posts?
YOU WIN!!!
Dan
YOU WIN!!!
Dan
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