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You do know that Tesla moves their prices up more often than down? An AI would probably learn that statistically buying now is better than buying later, unless you value at nothing utilizing the car today vs, in 10 years. I guarantee in 10 years you'll be able to get a better deal, in 20 years even better (more options, less money) so if having the car now vs. in 100 years is not a benefit, yes, AI will tell you wait forever.

Tesla continuously improves their products and adjusts pricing. People keep complaining that they keep on missing features, or price drops (bur not price increases or feature drops). That is a reality of a fast moving company. If the pleasure of owning a great car is going to be ruined for you by someone getting a better car (new features) and/or cheaper (price reductions), stay away from Tesla products, go with the traditional car manufacturers and buy at the very beginning of a model cycle (or buy an old used car at the very end of the model year cycle).

I can and have argued both sides. I sympathize with you because I understand your logic and where you are coming from.

The problem is even if you out successfully argue someone - what do you accomplish? Nothing. People will still do what they are going to do because of their pride, values or whatever they feel like.

Even if they are wrong, the customer is right. The fact that Tesla got this much outage and Elon is going back and forth all night shows the plan was a disaster.

Doing things is unavoidable.

Issues with how you do it, when you do it, and managing repercussions is avoidable.

I already mentioned many times how Tesla could have not only given up 0 pennies but actually made more money per car.

Given that it wasn’t a no win situation, Tesla has no viable defense. They senselessly and spectacularly failed in their handling of this.

You can get angry about how wrong the customer is all you want, you still need them in the end.
 
I can and have argued both sides. I sympathize with you because I understand your logic and where you are coming from.

The problem is even if you out successfully argue someone - what do you accomplish? Nothing. People will still do what they are going to do because of their pride, values or whatever they feel like.

Even if they are wrong, the customer is right. The fact that Tesla got this much outage and Elon is going back and forth all night shows the plan was a disaster.

Doing things is unavoidable.

Issues with how you do it, when you do it, and managing repercussions is avoidable.

I already mentioned many times how Tesla could have not only given up 0 pennies but actually made more money per car.

Given that it wasn’t a no win situation, Tesla has no viable defense. They senselessly and spectacularly failed in their handling of this.

You can get angry about how wrong the customer is all you want, you still need them in the end.
well said. You had a few good ideas on how they could have fixed this.

Free EAP instead of $5k back is one great idea too (Granted most people probably have EAP) but that would be a great way to compensate those who do not!

Letting people buy into free supercharging makes sense too, but I do think that maybe only the people that know they could make money off it would buy it :)

I wouldn't mind getting FSD as compensation, but I don't know why, anything seems better than nothing!

Elon said the word refund, you are not owed a refund because you didn’t pay for the +.

That's even worse, since it's not fair to the P3D- people who did not get the PUP at all. They are the real losers. I'm a real loser! noooo!

I think your right though. Which is why I will not buy another tesla.
 
None of you deserve any refunds. You got what you agreed to pay for at the time of the sale.

Unfortunately, Elon has too much compassion for others - he's definitely not a good businessman. I hope you don't damage Tesla the company and the movement with your stupid whining. Go read your contract and realize Tesla owes you nothing.

If they give you a penny, its because they seem not to care about making money - but a business has to care about that.

Fred Lambert should be fired.
 
Alright I spent 10 minutes thinking of how Tesla can avoid fraking up to the degree that they did here.

9 minutes more than Elon I think.

1.) Limit any price differentials per time period. Perhaps 1500 inside of 30 days.

2.) Offer a price guarantee for same build within x days. Maybe 30 days.

The specifics would need to be tweaked but should be a workable model.

In no situation should someone lose 5000 equity real OR PERCEIVED 24 hours after delivery. That’s bad for business. DGAF if you are Spock or not.

Thoughts?

Note: since I was a Aug 2 delivery recipient, I would be SOL under my own proposal. It’s not about what is best for ME but best for ALL.
 
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It's different with tesla. Tesla tells you when you can get your car and they will give you the lowest price (the one you ordered at or the current rate), but when you purchased the car for a cheaper rate, you didn't actually get the car! It's different because you don't know when you will get the car because it takes months for them to make it. It's not your fault you end up getting the car a day week or month before they change prices. I really think they should give you a month price guarantee with the way they are doing business, since they can't even properly tell you when your delivery will be.

For many of us we had to go through many hoops just to get a car and it's a slap in the face to have gone through them just to have the car be 5k cheaper a couple days later. Yes I do feel we should be treated fairly for putting down money years in advance on a car that isn't out. Not cool to have to do that AND pay extra and get the car only a few weeks sooner.

For me I had to buy a car just to get my past the first delay (was supposed to be May-June for delivery). Then I sold the car when I was given a delivery date for September and my deliveries were canceled I had to find another car to borrow to get by for another month or two until they could actually get me a car.

Then we have this whole loan mess with interest rates jumping up, but you can't time getting a loan because they keep canceling your delivery. Then when it finally came time to pickup the car I had to turn down the first car for multiple QC issues (wanted to repaint 5 panels), and by the time I got to the second car (only to find out later it was someone else's reject car) it was take it or get a new loan for $1000 more, and keep borrowing another vehicle and paying the $800 in fuel charges every month, or maybe do another rental for a better on gas car. I think the second car I was offered is even worse unless they actually get me into the service center.

They have yet to address anything on the due bill, so the car is only partially delivered IMO as they have not filled their part of the agreement! So yes I want some compensation for the price reduction days after I allowed the reject car to be mine on a promise that they will eventually fix it for me. Up until the car is fixed they should match the price / car!

Yet someone can now order one, no year wait, get a perfect car, and with the PUP for free, only a week later. Yes that hurts, for sure I will NEVER reserve another tesla if that's the way they are going to spin it. As it is there was very little point to reservation as people were getting their cars before the reservation holders!

Now legally they don't have to, but that does not make it right.
You can call it entitlement I call it compensation and treating your customers fairly.

Sometimes when other products go on sale places will price match, but if not they are also not usually $5000 on sale, and didn't require waiting over a year to get. They are also not typically things you need to take out a loan to acquire. No Tesla technically does not owe me anything, I agree! But after the treatment I have received I would not be able to bring myself to buy another one unless they do something. No one wants to go through this kind of car buying experience just to have to pay more for less after jumping through all the hoops, not to mention the 1-2 year wait.
I think you are confounding different issues:
  1. Ordering and production delays - absolutely a problem. You find many posts I made on TMC saying about this being the worst part of Tesla buying process. Every time you put a deposit down, you have no idea how much your trade-in will be, when your car will show up, or how much interest you'll have to pay. My experience included my Tesla trade-in dropping as much as $9K in less than 9 weeks while waiting for the new Tesla which did not lower its price. I had to rent a car for a month once too when I sold my old one and then my new Tesla wasn't there. So I'm 100% with you on that point.
  2. Product quality - Tesla has problems with quality and I cannot defend that. IMO they should compensate you for this experience.
  3. Price going down - now that I don't agree is wrong at all, nor do I believe Tesla should be refunding money to anyone for this.
As I said before, there is plenty of crap Tesla's pulled on customers, including you, and I've called them out on some of those things in the past, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with them lowering prices and not refunding past buyers. While I think Tesla should compensate me for the fact that my P85D would need to produce 50% more power to meet the advertised spec of 691hp (option for which I paid over $20K), I don't think they owe me anything for including the $5K premium package 2 months after I picked up my last Model S (which I did pay for the $5K package).

PS> "Yet someone can now order one, no year wait, get a perfect car,..." - uhm, anyone one ordering today is taking the same quality gamble. You are not, nor will be, the last one who experiences quality issues with Teslas.
 
I can and have argued both sides. I sympathize with you because I understand your logic and where you are coming from.

The problem is even if you out successfully argue someone - what do you accomplish? Nothing. People will still do what they are going to do because of their pride, values or whatever they feel like.

Even if they are wrong, the customer is right. The fact that Tesla got this much outage and Elon is going back and forth all night shows the plan was a disaster.

Doing things is unavoidable.

Issues with how you do it, when you do it, and managing repercussions is avoidable.

I already mentioned many times how Tesla could have not only given up 0 pennies but actually made more money per car.

Given that it wasn’t a no win situation, Tesla has no viable defense. They senselessly and spectacularly failed in their handling of this.

You can get angry about how wrong the customer is all you want, you still need them in the end.
I think you and I can agree at least on this one thing. Elon should get off of twitter and Tesla should have proper, managed, and thought through PR communications instead.

Personally I think Elon's going to be chastised for his refund tweet and might have to pay for it out of his own compensation package. $10M SEC penalty and a loss of chairman position didn't do it, maybe $100M to cover the damage from his tweet will make him think twice the next time he goes tweeting. The sad part is, that while I think the "going private" tweet was just plane stupid, in this particular situation I totally sympathize with Elon - trying to make the car more affordable and drive demand and all these irrational entitled customers spin up another internet social outage which draws in others who feel like "hmm... the other people feel outraged so that validates my entitlement". He shouldn't have tweeted anything about this at all, but I can totally see how he would feel hurt and lash out with the "Fine, $5000 for free supercharging you ingrates!" (I'm paraphrasing here) tweet back. While emotionally justified, as a CEO of a multi-billion dollar company he should be exercising more self-control.
 
Elon said the word refund, you are not owed a refund because you didn’t pay for the +.
None of you deserve any refunds. You got what you agreed to pay for at the time of the sale.

Unfortunately, Elon has too much compassion for others - he's definitely not a good businessman. I hope you don't damage Tesla the company and the movement with your stupid whining. Go read your contract and realize Tesla owes you nothing.

If they give you a penny, its because they seem not to care about making money - but a business has to care about that.

Fred Lambert should be fired.
So it's ok for them to not complete the due bill too? Add PUP package for free while I wait and Im supposed to be happy? Legally sure, but that isn't going to make us the holders happy. Whether or not we deserve the refund isn't the issue here. The issue is that this crazy pricing is pissing off allot of people. I mean come on, it's like a light switch!
 
To all those who believe they are entitled to a refund, how do you deal with other products which go on sale or reduce prices by 10% 2 or 3 months later? I'm not even talking stocks, but say electronics/computers? It is not at all unusual for example for new Intel CPU to come out at $2,500 and 2-3 months later be sold for sub $2,000. Do you go on twitter and forums to demand $500, or $1,000 or whatever the price difference is?
CPU is different because a newer and better one is out causing the old one to be cheaper. It’s a known cycle. Tesla did not make a better and faster P3D to justify a 5000 reduction within 2-3 months. As for other electronics / computers, most retailers offer price match within the return period. Regardless, those are small money and is nowhere close to this 5,000 reduction. We all know car purchases are big purchases. There’s no question about it.

The bottom line is, as EM admitted, too much too soon.

Don’t forgot there was another too much too soon in electronics world too, the first iPhone.
 
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I think you and I can agree at least on this one thing. Elon should get off of twitter and Tesla should have proper, managed, and thought through PR communications instead.

Personally I think Elon's going to be chastised for his refund tweet and might have to pay for it out of his own compensation package. $10M SEC penalty and a loss of chairman position didn't do it, maybe $100M to cover the damage from his tweet will make him think twice the next time he goes tweeting. The sad part is, that while I think the "going private" tweet was just plane stupid, in this particular situation I totally sympathize with Elon - trying to make the car more affordable and drive demand and all these irrational entitled customers spin up another internet social outage which draws in others who feel like "hmm... the other people feel outraged so that validates my entitlement". He shouldn't have tweeted anything about this at all, but I can totally see how he would feel hurt and lash out with the "Fine, $5000 for free supercharging you ingrates!" (I'm paraphrasing here) tweet back. While emotionally justified, as a CEO of a multi-billion dollar company he should be exercising more self-control.
So your saying just bad luck.. Allowing them to convince me to buy a car that needs to be fixed up, and at the same time losing out on the now free PUP package I would have had had I rejected the car for the second time? And I should be happy about this?
 
Alright I spent 10 minutes thinking of how Tesla can avoid fraking up to the degree that they did here.

9 minutes more than Elon I think.

1.) Limit any price differentials per time period. Perhaps 1500 inside of 30 days.

2.) Offer a price guarantee for same build within x days. Maybe 30 days.

The specifics would need to be tweaked but should be a workable model.

In no situation should someone lose 5000 equity real OR PERCEIVED 24 hours after delivery. That’s bad for business. DGAF if you are Spock or not.

Thoughts?

Note: since I was a Aug 2 delivery recipient, I would be SOL under my own proposal. It’s not about what is best for ME but best for ALL.

Thoughts on the price guarantee being longer on higher margin Performance cars? 30 day standard, 90 day Performance. Couldn't that have the effect of pushing a couple percentage points up to the higher margin vehicle?

Or, perhaps after 30 days, it becomes a Service/Accessory/Future Car credit?

Finally, you'll still have people missing that ~30 day window by a single day feeling slighted. Perhaps a phase-out? Month one 100%, Month two 50%, Month three 25%. I know it's more complicated, but this could prevent people from feeling totally burned. And, hey, we're all trained on the tax credit phase-out concept. :)
 
So it's ok for them to not complete the due bill too? Add PUP package for free while I wait and Im supposed to be happy? Legally sure, but that isn't going to make us the holders happy. Whether or not we deserve the refund isn't the issue here. The issue is that this crazy pricing is pissing off allot of people. I mean come on, it's like a light switch!
yeah that’s fair, i see your point.
 
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Thoughts on the price guarantee being longer on higher margin Performance cars? 30 day standard, 90 day Performance. Couldn't that have the effect of pushing a couple percentage points up to the higher margin vehicle?

Or, perhaps after 30 days, it becomes a Service/Accessory/Future Car credit?

Finally, you'll still have people missing that ~30 day window by a single day feeling slighted. Perhaps a phase-out? Month one 100%, Month two 50%, Month three 25%. I know it's more complicated, but this could prevent people from feeling totally burned. And, hey, we're all trained on the tax credit phase-out concept. :)
I'm onboard, 30 days (or whatever) was my suggestion when it happened to the AWD people as well. Anything is better than nothing. Even 30 days for ALL models is better than nothing, or maybe just for ordered cars. If you get something from inventory at a discount and it is immediate this would be less necessary. Just because you buy a lower model doesn't mean 5k wouldn't count just as much after all!
 
So your saying just bad luck.. Allowing them to convince me to buy a car that needs to be fixed up, and at the same time losing out on the now free PUP package I would have had had I rejected the car for the second time? And I should be happy about this?
Not at all. I was just saying totally separate issues. Tesla definitely wronged you, just not by lowering the price. I think you might even have a case to ask for more than $5K for the other things they screwed up, but nothing for the fact that they allow other people to buy the same car cheaper.
 
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Alright I spent 10 minutes thinking of how Tesla can avoid fraking up to the degree that they did here.

9 minutes more than Elon I think.

1.) Limit any price differentials per time period. Perhaps 1500 inside of 30 days.

2.) Offer a price guarantee for same build within x days. Maybe 30 days.

The specifics would need to be tweaked but should be a workable model.

In no situation should someone lose 5000 equity real OR PERCEIVED 24 hours after delivery. That’s bad for business. DGAF if you are Spock or not.

Thoughts?

Note: since I was a Aug 2 delivery recipient, I would be SOL under my own proposal. It’s not about what is best for ME but best for ALL.

I like where you are headed. At least some form of predictability even over a relatively short time horizon (think months) would be good. People keep bringing up CPUs even though they are like 100X cheaper than a major investment like a car but even with CPUs the downward price curve is fairly predictable and people can make decisions accordingly.
 
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