PG&E clearance updated with regards to gas

[GivenHopeOn]

Hello!
Long time reader and new registered forum user.

In the process of upgrading my service panel from 200 to 400amps in order to add more solar panels to my home. I recently came across a snag that has been bitten a number of fellow users looking to upgrade; which is the clearance from gas riser required to be 36in. From speaking with pg&e reps, it looks like the « greenbook » has been recently revised/clarified to allow as close to 12in from the gas regulator to allow a service upgrade.

If you are currently working with pg&e on a upgrade to panel; insure they look at recent revisions as of July-August 2022 of the green book. Print out attached for your reference. Key point that is allowance is no longer limited to like-for-like but also upgrades

 

[hiltxan]

How do people make sure PGE doesn't halt the project or not allow me to turn on the solar? I have an electrical panel right above the gas riser, but it is about 20-24" in front of the electrical panel. 2D wise according to the figure it will not pass, but if you picture a 3D scenario, it's past the 12" min.

I want to get solar but want everything approved/allowed before I even start rather than find out halfway through PGE stops the work.

See pic below:

 

[GivenHopeOn]

How do people make sure PGE doesn't halt the project or not allow me to turn on the solar? I have an electrical panel right above the gas riser, but it is about 20-24" in front of the electrical panel. 2D wise according to the figure it will not pass, but if you picture a 3D scenario, it's past the 12" min.

I want to get solar but want everything approved/allowed before I even start rather than find out halfway through PGE stops the work.

See pic below:

View attachment 850172

Workspace clearance may come into play in this kind of installation. PG&E and NEC requires 30x36” clear space in front of the panel, afaik. That clearance goes right up to the edge of the panel door and extends down to foot level. That’s a tough one unfortunately with the cubby access you have.

 

[jjrandorin]

How do people make sure PGE doesn't halt the project or not allow me to turn on the solar?

Whomever you pick for your solar install will either do a site survey, or require you to submit pictures, or both. You are also supposed to bring up any concerns you might have. Part of what you are paying for is a "permitted installation" so the answer to that question is, what you are paying your contractor for is a permitted installation.

Whomever you choose will either make you fix it and charge you, tell you that you need to fix it before they start work and that they dont do it, or tell you that they dont feel its a concern and they are willing to push forward.

Construction projects sometimes have snags in them, so you have to be prepared for that, but you would bring up your concern with whomever you choose, is the answer to your question.

 

[hiltxan]

My guess is that if I don't touch the main panel (upgrade or replace) then PG&E might allow it. The like-for-like panel exchange seems to be less successful.

There's also the 2D vs 3D interpretation of the drawing. The electric panel is over 12" behind the gas riser. Mathematically wise using pythagorean, the panel fits into the diagram. Maybe this 3D interpretation will be too difficult for them to comprehend.

I'm also afraid that solar installers may not know eveyrthing and claim ignorance, leaving me with an installed solar system but unable to turn on. This happened to my neighbor with the same panel above the meter and she spent over 50k to retrench and move the main panel because we have underground utilities.

 

[Vines]

My guess is that if I don't touch the main panel (upgrade or replace) then PG&E might allow it. The like-for-like panel exchange seems to be less successful.

There's also the 2D vs 3D interpretation of the drawing. The electric panel is over 12" behind the gas riser. Mathematically wise using pythagorean, the panel fits into the diagram. Maybe this 3D interpretation will be too difficult for them to comprehend.

I'm also afraid that solar installers may not know eveyrthing and claim ignorance, leaving me with an installed solar system but unable to turn on. This happened to my neighbor with the same panel above the meter and she spent over 50k to retrench and move the main panel because we have underground utilities.

So wait, you know there was already a problem with your neighbor, who had to spend a lot of money to fix it and you are asking here for advice? Who is claiming ignorance?

You have the advice from your neighbors experience, it's a high risk and if you get away with it, you have gotten away with a non code compliant installation.

Even just the working space violation is significant. SF is super strict with inspections and code violations so the chances you "get away with it" are low.

If possible and you want to push your luck, I'd try to not touch anything in the main panel, and intercept some existing subfeed wire away from the gas meter.

Then at least you haven't landed any more breakers in the main panel.

 

[hiltxan]

She had to replace and move her main panel because the prior owner upgraded from 100a to 200a without a permit. So her situation is not exactly like mine where I already have a permitted 200a installed from the beginning.

Don’t know why you have to attack the posting…just asking for advice before going ahead with the project. Maybe I should’ve been more clear in the original post?

Also I feel that pge should own up and replace it since they were the ones who approved it 30 years ago and now it’s not up to code. To put this burden on the homeowner seems unfair…but I don’t think I’ll have any luck convincing pge.

 

[jjrandorin]

She had to replace and move her main panel because the prior owner upgraded from 100a to 200a without a permit. So her situation is not exactly like mine where I already have a permitted 200a installed from the beginning.

Don’t know why you have to attack the posting…just asking for advice before going ahead with the project. Maybe I should’ve been more clear in the original post?

Also I feel that pge should own up and replace it since they were the ones who approved it 30 years ago and now it’s not up to code. To put this burden on the homeowner seems unfair…but I don’t think I’ll have any luck convincing pge.

I certainly cant speak for @Vines but I can tell you that a particular sore spot for people in any sort of service capacity (like I am, for example) really (really really) dislike when someone knows something might be an issue, and either doesnt bring it up or accuses others of negligence regarding said issue if it comes up.

Since vines works in the PV industry, I am guessing "I know my neighbor had an issue, I think I might have an issue, but I think PV installers are going to claim ignorance" likely touched a nerve.

My prior advice still stands. Bring it up to the company you choose to do your project.

 

[jboy210]

...

Also I feel that pge should own up and replace it since they were the ones who approved it 30 years ago and now it’s not up to code. To put this burden on the homeowner seems unfair…but I don’t think I’ll have any luck convincing pge.

I hope PG&E agrees to update, but in my home construction history this has not been the case. At least here in Pleasanton, existing features that don't meet today's code often do not have to be brought up to the current code. But if you touch anything in that area then the new code must be met. Case in point. We wanted to change the spindles in a staircase. They would not let use just do that since the railing would then be too short to meet today's code. We ended up replacing sections of the staircase and spindles and having the railings remade by hand to fit the new height requirement. Looks great but that was an extra $6K we had not planned on spending.

 

[h2ofun]

She had to replace and move her main panel because the prior owner upgraded from 100a to 200a without a permit. So her situation is not exactly like mine where I already have a permitted 200a installed from the beginning.

Don’t know why you have to attack the posting…just asking for advice before going ahead with the project. Maybe I should’ve been more clear in the original post?

Also I feel that pge should own up and replace it since they were the ones who approved it 30 years ago and now it’s not up to code. To put this burden on the homeowner seems unfair…but I don’t think I’ll have any luck convincing pge.

Just because a mistake was made 30 years ago, does not mean it can be ignored now. Codes are there for reasons. Clearly, Vines was right on the mark

 

[hiltxan]

The thing is I don’t want to claim ignorance before starting my project, hence why I posted in the first place. The neighbor’s Tesla solar company claimed ignorance because they installed everything and then PGE stopped them.

I get that solar installers can tell you if there will be any problems but they also have a conflict of interest. How can I trust them?

The only person I can trust is PGE to give the approval before I install and there doesn’t seem to be a way to do that?

 

[jjrandorin]

The thing is I don’t want to claim ignorance before starting my project, hence why I posted in the first place. The neighbor’s Tesla solar company claimed ignorance because they installed everything and then PGE stopped them.

I get that solar installers can tell you if there will be any problems but they also have a conflict of interest. How can I trust them?

The only person I can trust is PGE to give the approval before I install and there doesn’t seem to be a way to do that?

You can require that the company you work with get an approved permit before they start (note, that wont be Tesla, you are not going to be able to dictate anything to them like that).

 

[h2ofun]

The thing is I don’t want to claim ignorance before starting my project, hence why I posted in the first place. The neighbor’s Tesla solar company claimed ignorance because they installed everything and then PGE stopped them.

I get that solar installers can tell you if there will be any problems but they also have a conflict of interest. How can I trust them?

The only person I can trust is PGE to give the approval before I install and there doesn’t seem to be a way to do that?

Keep digging the hole

 

[Vines]

I certainly cant speak for @Vines but I can tell you that a particular sore spot for people in any sort of service capacity (like I am, for example) really (really really) dislike when someone knows something might be an issue, and either doesnt bring it up or accuses others of negligence regarding said issue if it comes up.

Since vines works in the PV industry, I am guessing "I know my neighbor had an issue, I think I might have an issue, but I think PV installers are going to claim ignorance" likely touched a nerve.

My prior advice still stands. Bring it up to the company you choose to do your project.

I agree, and this is a sore point, sorry I came on strong about it. I appreciate the OP is trying to solve this proactively.

For instance, if you called PGE and asked them if your current service panel was ok, they would come out and point out what you already know.

If you called your local SF building inspector and asked for a courtesy inspection and explain the issue to him this is your best chance. There is no way a SF inspector will overlook the clearance issues. I think that they could advise you as to how seriously they will take the existing code violation.

I recommend you intercept another subfeed and tie into that, and keep fingers crossed. I also recommend you proactively reach out to the city inspector to eliminate the risk of the unknown. The likely risk is the building department and working space being intruded upon with that meter.

 

[hiltxan]

Thanks. I’ll reach out to building inspectors to get their input. But ultimately everyone might still defer to PGE since they have the final say.

I can’t believe Tesla will not get permits approved before starting any construction? I thought that if drawings and permits that are submitted to the city and pge to get reviewed and approved I should have no surprises.

 

[holeydonut]

The only person I can trust is PGE to give the approval before I install and there doesn’t seem to be a way to do that?

You think PG&E is trustworthy????

I just about frickin' had a stroke reading this. I’m going to put this nicely... You are goddamn insane if you pick PG&E over of basically anybody else to trust. Not that I'm biased or anything (har har).

But I've had one PG&E person tell me something was "ok" in writing with multiple approvals. Then later, another PG&E D-BAG took offense to me getting PV+ESS. They shut off my power for like 10 hours to put my home near freezing. He did this to teach me a lesson about obeying their rules around spacing near the gas riser. Trust PG&E? /stroke/

If you want PV, then your PV installer is your best friend. Make sure you get the best installer you can that knows how to get your system to work to the extent PG&E cannot crap on your end result. This means not Tesla Energy since Tesla wants easy, and your situation is the opposite of easy.

 

[jjrandorin]

Thanks. I’ll reach out to building inspectors to get their input. But ultimately everyone might still defer to PGE since they have the final say.

I can’t believe Tesla will not get permits approved before starting any construction? I thought that if drawings and permits that are submitted to the city and pge to get reviewed and approved I should have no surprises.

If I were you, I would not be considering Tesla for your project. I would be looking at going with another company (and the increased cost that will be). Nothing you have described says "This should be fine for tesla to do". You are not going to get "tesla price" with the level of service / care its fairly obvious you both want, and need, with that situation from anyone.

Note that, I am not down specifically on Tesla, I just know that there are things they do well (pricing on fairly simple installations) and things they dont (basically anything "custom" or any desire for high touch communication / anything outside of their regular flowchart of options).

 

[Vines]

Thanks. I’ll reach out to building inspectors to get their input. But ultimately everyone might still defer to PGE since they have the final say.

I can’t believe Tesla will not get permits approved before starting any construction? I thought that if drawings and permits that are submitted to the city and pge to get reviewed and approved I should have no surprises.

PGE has say but in this case the violation appears to be that the gas meter impedes the working space of the Service panel.

The City inspector is your largest risk in my opinion, if the city says that they will allow you to add a new breaker to the MSP despite the working space issues, then PGE wont have any more heartache.

 

[Vines]

Thanks. I’ll reach out to building inspectors to get their input. But ultimately everyone might still defer to PGE since they have the final say.

I can’t believe Tesla will not get permits approved before starting any construction? I thought that if drawings and permits that are submitted to the city and pge to get reviewed and approved I should have no surprises.

The problem is that this issue will not really be obvious from the CAD plans by Tesla unless someone makes a specific detail to show the field conditions. Typically Tesla does not make a wall elevation or plan view of the equipment at the service, so the only time this detail is known is at inspection.

 

[hiltxan]

You think PG&E is trustworthy????

I just about frickin' had a stroke reading this. I’m going to put this nicely... You are goddamn insane if you pick PG&E over of basically anybody else to trust. Not that I'm biased or anything (har har).

But I've had one PG&E person tell me something was "ok" in writing with multiple approvals. Then later, another PG&E D-BAG took offense to me getting PV+ESS. They shut off my power for like 10 hours to put my home near freezing. He did this to teach me a lesson about obeying their rules around spacing near the gas riser. Trust PG&E? /stroke/

I’m so scared of PGE to the point that they are essentially like the mafia to me and I have to tiptoe around them making sure everything is in line. Some inspectors do anything they can to block solar installations since they think they’ll lose money (from pension, compensation or retirement) if more houses convert to solar. Their method seems so arbitrary.

I’ll be getting different quotes from companies. I really wanted to go with Tesla since I do like their app and interfaces and powerwalls, but may ultimately have to choose a different one.