PG&E discontinuing EV-A rate

[cwied]

Tesla did handle it. You’re probably right. I guess it worked out in the long run for me..

I got my PTO in July 2018 through Tesla and I stayed on NEM 1. My brother got his PTO in August 2018 through Tesla and was moved to NEM2. I believe it's probably a timing thing. @wwhitney - I believe you got your PTO on or before July 2018 too, am I recalling it correctly?

 

[wwhitney]

My PTO for NEM Paired Storage was 7/31/18.

I would be more inclined to believe the difference is due to inconsistency in how Tesla submits the interconnection applications than to a change in policy on PG&E's part.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[astrorob]

thanks for all the replies about storage and NEM1/NEM2. it sounds like i should explicitly ask tesla to submit the interconnection paperwork under NEM2.0 - adding another panel is going to be a pain in the butt. while that would probably be a surefire way to get on NEM2.0, it would be a heck of a lot easier if adding storage accomplished that.

then of course there's the whole task of convincing PGE that my EVA grandfather date should be then pushed to 2020.

 

[Sherlo]

My PTO for NEM Paired Storage was 7/31/18.

I would be more inclined to believe the difference is due to inconsistency in how Tesla submits the interconnection applications than to a change in policy on PG&E's part.

Cheers, Wayne

Yep, I agree after going through the process (and your help Wayne). Spoke with PGE solar rep and there is no problem remaining on NEM1 when only adding powerwalls. Just make sure Tesla summits the correct PTO application.

 

[MikeW]

The PG&E rep told me the rate will stay the same through last day covered by your November bill. The new rate will start the next day. I'm planning to check my current rate plan on the PG&E web site and the December bill.

UPDATE: I got my December bill and I'm still on EV-A. The web site shows I'm on EV-2A but the bill is what matters

 

[JPP]

Well, as it turns out, I have some decent news from PG&E. The wording says that for the purposes of grandfathering, PG&E is to use the earliest PTO on the current tariff. Because installing Powerwalls in May of 2018 required them moving me to NEM2 (NEM-PS), that PTO is the earliest on my current tariff and will be used for grandfather purposes.

More importantly, I was told that for most residences with similar storage (one to two Powerwalls), EV2-A is not an eligible rate anyway, and those on EV-A will not be moved. I asked if this was across the board for storage, and he said it was not, but that it would pretty widely apply. He suggested that those with storage on the EV-A rate plan should call ASAP to clarify. I called the PG&E number provided by @miimura (877-743-4112).

@MikeW, I see you're a long time member but an infrequent poster so I'm not sure if you are frequently lurking. If so, I wonder if the bolded text in my original paragraph would apply to you since you've been moved to NEM2 already. Perhaps because you moved after the rate plan was approved it does not apply. And you didn't mention storage, so I'm not sure if you have that protection or not.

I definitely suggest that those with storage give PG&E a call. I'm good until November 2023..

Yes, indeed....but you lucked out as you got storage installed within the window to be grandfathered into EV-A for a while. I timed out in November 2019 (6 years after PTO for my solar), and won't have PWs until end-January (and likely a new PTO in February 2020). So I have a gap. I can maybe beg PG&E to put me back onto EV-A, but I have no hope. And EV2-A is the most punitive for me, and TOU-A is about the best of a bad set of choices.

 

[astrorob]

Yes, indeed....but you lucked out as you got storage installed within the window to be grandfathered into EV-A for a while. I timed out in November 2019 (6 years after PTO for my solar), and won't have PWs until end-January (and likely a new PTO in February 2020). So I have a gap. I can maybe beg PG&E to put me back onto EV-A, but I have no hope. And EV2-A is the most punitive for me, and TOU-A is about the best of a bad set of choices.

right - i called PGE in early nov 2019 and asked explicitly if moving to NEM2 in conjunction with a powerwall install would be basis for grandfathering me into EV-A and they said "maybe" at first and then after consulting a manager, said no. my PTO was november 2015 so come november 2020 i will be on TOU-A as well...

 

[JPP]

right - i called PGE in early nov 2019 and asked explicitly if moving to NEM2 in conjunction with a powerwall install would be basis for grandfathering me into EV-A and they said "maybe" at first and then after consulting a manager, said no. my PTO was november 2015 so come november 2020 i will be on TOU-A as well...

Could you stay on NEM1 (I assume you have legacy solar) or were you forced into NEM2 with the PW install?

 

[wwu123]

Yes, indeed....but you lucked out as you got storage installed within the window to be grandfathered into EV-A for a while. I timed out in November 2019 (6 years after PTO for my solar), and won't have PWs until end-January (and likely a new PTO in February 2020). So I have a gap. I can maybe beg PG&E to put me back onto EV-A, but I have no hope. And EV2-A is the most punitive for me, and TOU-A is about the best of a bad set of choices.

BTW, speaking of bad set of choices, PG&E stated TOU-A is shifting to 4-9 peak period as of Jan 1 (which doesn't matter much til summer since peak is only a bit more than off-peak in winter), and now states TOU-A is going away and everyone will be moved to TOU 4-9 every day rate come August....

 

[astrorob]

Could you stay on NEM1 (I assume you have legacy solar) or were you forced into NEM2 with the PW install?

based on some of the info in this thread, i initially thought if i switched to NEM2 i could extend the grandfathering from the NEM2 PTO, and asked tesla to prepare NEM2 interconnection paperwork. however, after i called PGE and found out that would not help, i asked tesla to re-draft the agreement under NEM1, and they did it for me. i signed it a couple of weeks ago but have not heard anything back from them yet.

and now states TOU-A is going away and everyone will be moved to TOU 4-9 every day rate come August....

this just gets worse and worse. that timing is one of the reasons that EV2-A is so bad. clearly they are trying to raise $$ from their solar customers to help pay for this bankruptcy.

 

[ohmman]

clearly they are trying to raise $$ from their solar customers to help pay for this bankruptcy.

I think it’s more the writing on the wall as solar is now mandated on new construction, and owners continue to retrofit existing homes. Supply is increasing in the old “peak” timeframe, and shifting makes economic sense. It sucks for customers, but I don’t think it’s out of sync with supply and demand.

 

[eevee-fan]

based on some of the info in this thread, i initially thought if i switched to NEM2 i could extend the grandfathering from the NEM2 PTO, and asked tesla to prepare NEM2 interconnection paperwork. however, after i called PGE and found out that would not help, i asked tesla to re-draft the agreement under NEM1, and they did it for me. i signed it a couple of weeks ago but have not heard anything back from them yet.



this just gets worse and worse. that timing is one of the reasons that EV2-A is so bad. clearly they are trying to raise $$ from their solar customers to help pay for this bankruptcy.

This is what PG&E sees across the system. Their rate makes sense.

California ISO - Supply

California ISO - Todays Outlook

Looks more to me like that power before 3PM is dirt cheap because everyone has solar, not greed. Thinking you can buy solar panels without battery and expecting PG&E to provide the battery service to you for free (allowing free time shifting between your production and your use) is what's illogical. If you want to avoid the peak rate, get a bunch of PowerWalls and use it exclusively from 3pm - midnight.

 

[astrorob]

yeah yeah, i get all that. but most of us installed our systems with payback horizons in the ~10 year range and they've pulled the carpet out from under us 5+ years early.

there's nothing illogical about making economic decisions based on the current knowledge at the time. what's illogical is that the CPUC would let PGE screw *existing* solar customers like this.

 

[miimura]

yeah yeah, i get all that. but most of us installed our systems with payback horizons in the ~10 year range and they've pulled the carpet out from under us 5+ years early.

there's nothing illogical about making economic decisions based on the current knowledge at the time. what's illogical is that the CPUC would let PGE screw *existing* solar customers like this.

While I agree with this sentiment, we were really getting a sweetheart deal where we were getting "extra credit" for our solar versus our EV charging during overnight hours. If you have NEM 1, you are guaranteed that for 20 years from PTO. The worst they can do is give you 1:1 kWh from your solar to your overnight charging. This is just like having the old E-1 rate that had no TOU with solar. In other places, people are stuck with feed in tariffs where they are given less for their solar surplus and they have to buy power overnight for a higher retail price.

 

[power.saver]

there's nothing illogical about making economic decisions based on the current knowledge at the time. what's illogical is that the CPUC would let PGE screw *existing* solar customers like this.

The CPUC isn't letting PG&E do this, they ordered them to (and all other IOU in CA). It standardizes the TOU periods to reflect the actual demand curves, mainly due to the large proliferation of renewable energy, especially solar.

PG&E, SCE and SDGE will all have these 4-9PM TOU periods starting this year.

While I agree it makes solar without storage batteries less financially attractive, the real purpose of this order is to get all users to cut demand during the 4-9pm peak by sending "strong price signals". How effective this will be has yet to be seen, but the best thing anyone can do is to get storage batteries and do load shifting to completely offset their peak usage.

 

[astrorob]

The CPUC isn't letting PG&E do this, they ordered them to (and all other IOU in CA). It standardizes the TOU periods to reflect the actual demand curves, mainly due to the large proliferation of renewable energy, especially solar.

PG&E, SCE and SDGE will all have these 4-9PM TOU periods starting this year.

While I agree it makes solar without storage batteries less financially attractive, the real purpose of this order is to get all users to cut demand during the 4-9pm peak by sending "strong price signals". How effective this will be has yet to be seen, but the best thing anyone can do is to get storage batteries and do load shifting to completely offset their peak usage.

i'm not talking about the rate shift by itself, i'm talking about not grandfathering existing solar customers for longer than 5 years on non-shifted plans. the net effect of this peak shift is that my yearly cost goes from +/-$200 to $1000, and it can't and won't change my demand pattern. it's great to talk about how they need to fix the duck curve but this ain't it.

many of us installed a PV system with a given size based on the idea that it would pay for itself in the ~10 year range and 5 years is a joke. my payback now goes out to 17 years after this change. if they didn't want me to install solar, then they should not have incentivized me to do so. i probably would not have installed it if i thought it would take 20 years to pay back.

i don't live in an area where i need to run my air conditioners in the summer. for most people, that's their #1 consumer of electric power. i would argue that most people in the valley are not going to turn off their ACs at peak time - it's just too damn hot, and the demand for cool air is basically inelastic, especially for the old and infirm. for me, there's really nothing i can do to cut demand from 4-9pm, because my demand is already pretty minimal. all of my loads come overnight - electric car charging - and all this rate change does to me is make me pay more for electricity. just about the only thing i *could* do is charge my cars in the morning, but guess what, my cars aren't at home in the morning!

i'm getting batteries because PGE keeps cutting my power. that's outrageous in and of itself, and outside of that it's completely ridiculous for the utilities and the CPUC to "tell" me that i need to spend $$$ on batteries to load shift in order to preserve their grid. again, they really couldn't see this coming? if they really want to smooth out the grid then stop messing around with these completely baroque rules for SGIP with all these tiers and limits and just start paying people to install batteries.

 

[ohmman]

i'm getting batteries because PGE keeps cutting my power. that's outrageous in and of itself, and outside of that it's completely ridiculous for the utilities and the CPUC to "tell" me that i need to spend $$$ on batteries to load shift in order to preserve their grid. again, they really couldn't see this coming? if they really want to smooth out the grid then stop messing around with these completely baroque rules for SGIP with all these tiers and limits and just start paying people to install batteries.

Well, the batteries will at least help a bit with rate arbitrage. But you're right that EV2-A is an unattractive plan for anyone with solar, regardless of storage.

 

[power.saver]

i'm not talking about the rate shift by itself, i'm talking about not grandfathering existing solar customers for longer than 5 years on non-shifted plans. the net effect of this peak shift is that my yearly cost goes from +/-$200 to $1000, and it can't and won't change my demand pattern. it's great to talk about how they need to fix the duck curve but this ain't it.

many of us installed a PV system with a given size based on the idea that it would pay for itself in the ~10 year range and 5 years is a joke. my payback now goes out to 17 years after this change. if they didn't want me to install solar, then they should not have incentivized me to do so. i probably would not have installed it if i thought it would take 20 years to pay back.

i don't live in an area where i need to run my air conditioners in the summer. for most people, that's their #1 consumer of electric power. i would argue that most people in the valley are not going to turn off their ACs at peak time - it's just too damn hot, and the demand for cool air is basically inelastic, especially for the old and infirm. for me, there's really nothing i can do to cut demand from 4-9pm, because my demand is already pretty minimal. all of my loads come overnight - electric car charging - and all this rate change does to me is make me pay more for electricity. just about the only thing i *could* do is charge my cars in the morning, but guess what, my cars aren't at home in the morning!

i'm getting batteries because PGE keeps cutting my power. that's outrageous in and of itself, and outside of that it's completely ridiculous for the utilities and the CPUC to "tell" me that i need to spend $$$ on batteries to load shift in order to preserve their grid. again, they really couldn't see this coming? if they really want to smooth out the grid then stop messing around with these completely baroque rules for SGIP with all these tiers and limits and just start paying people to install batteries.

I completely agree with you, and this is probably going to have a lot of backlash as the general public discovers they are on TOU with rates/times that they can't or won't be able to reduce power. So yes, this isn't the way to fix the problem. We'll have to see how the CPUC and/or Legislator responds later this year.

Solar customers are much more in-tune with rates and TOU, the average homeowner is not prepared for this, and they have no solar to even partially offset their bill. Yikes.

Batteries for backup are good, and I have them too, but they really help with load shifting. The problem is the utilities aren't doing it on a large scale, so we have to individually do it, and there isn't enough market penetration to make a difference yet.

 

[Merrill]

i'm not talking about the rate shift by itself, i'm talking about not grandfathering existing solar customers for longer than 5 years on non-shifted plans. the net effect of this peak shift is that my yearly cost goes from +/-$200 to $1000, and it can't and won't change my demand pattern. it's great to talk about how they need to fix the duck curve but this ain't it.

many of us installed a PV system with a given size based on the idea that it would pay for itself in the ~10 year range and 5 years is a joke. my payback now goes out to 17 years after this change. if they didn't want me to install solar, then they should not have incentivized me to do so. i probably would not have installed it if i thought it would take 20 years to pay back.

i don't live in an area where i need to run my air conditioners in the summer. for most people, that's their #1 consumer of electric power. i would argue that most people in the valley are not going to turn off their ACs at peak time - it's just too damn hot, and the demand for cool air is basically inelastic, especially for the old and infirm. for me, there's really nothing i can do to cut demand from 4-9pm, because my demand is already pretty minimal. all of my loads come overnight - electric car charging - and all this rate change does to me is make me pay more for electricity. just about the only thing i *could* do is charge my cars in the morning, but guess what, my cars aren't at home in the morning!

i'm getting batteries because PGE keeps cutting my power. that's outrageous in and of itself, and outside of that it's completely ridiculous for the utilities and the CPUC to "tell" me that i need to spend $$$ on batteries to load shift in order to preserve their grid. again, they really couldn't see this coming? if they really want to smooth out the grid then stop messing around with these completely baroque rules for SGIP with all these tiers and limits and just start paying people to install batteries.

My feeling exactly, I get all this stuff from Pacific Graft and Extortion on what to do when they cut the power. Things like make sure your generator is ready to go, are you going to buy one for me!

 

[eevee-fan]

i'm not talking about the rate shift by itself, i'm talking about not grandfathering existing solar customers for longer than 5 years on non-shifted plans. the net effect of this peak shift is that my yearly cost goes from +/-$200 to $1000, and it can't and won't change my demand pattern. it's great to talk about how they need to fix the duck curve but this ain't it.

Wow, this IS a bummer! Were you not in the 20 year guaranteed period like the other folks?